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The Internet Communications Government The Almighty Buck United States News

How Can the Stimulus Plan Help the Internet? 154

Wired is running an article raising the question of how a US economic stimulus plan could best help broadband adoption and the internet in general. We discussed President-elect Obama's statements about his plan, which would include investments in such areas, but Wired asks how we can avoid the equivalent of the New Deal's "ditches to nowhere" without more data about where the money would actually make a difference. Quoting: "... the problem is that no one knows the best way to make the internet more resilient, accessible and secure, since there's no just no public data. The ISP and backbone internet providers don't tell anyone anything. For instance, the government doesn't know how many people actually have broadband or what they pay for it. ... In September, the FCC found that its data collection on internet broadband was incomplete and thus ruled that AT&T, Qwest and Verizon could stop filing some reports — because the requirements did not extend to cable companies, too."
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How Can the Stimulus Plan Help the Internet?

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  • by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 ) on Sunday December 28, 2008 @01:44PM (#26250375) Journal
    ...is to get rid of the whole "stimulus plan" to start with. Lower taxes rather than collecting them and redistributing to chosen pet projects (with an appropriate cut for the voracious appetite of Government to waste).
  • by pilsner.urquell ( 734632 ) on Sunday December 28, 2008 @01:46PM (#26250395)

    How Can the Stimulus Plan Help the Internet? It can't! Already more money has been dumped into this stimulus plan that has been spent on all the major wars this country has fought.

    Demand side economics is not the right solution at this time.

  • Re:Look CEOs (Score:2, Informative)

    by roc97007 ( 608802 ) on Sunday December 28, 2008 @03:09PM (#26251025) Journal

    There's two "o"s in "too". :-)

  • by Timothy Brownawell ( 627747 ) <tbrownaw@prjek.net> on Sunday December 28, 2008 @03:16PM (#26251087) Homepage Journal

    For instance, the government doesn't know how many people actually have broadband or what they pay for it

    Wait, I thought telcos giving the government open access to their records was a bad thing.

    Come'on folks. You know anything the government touches will be abused. Stop giving these appointees more power for next to no real gain.

    You don't see a difference between "Here's a log of all calls to/from 555-1234, registered to Joe Nacho" and "here's a list of how many subscribers we have at each speed in each zip code"? I tend to see personal information as rather different from statistics.

  • Re:Look CEOs (Score:5, Informative)

    by burnin1965 ( 535071 ) on Sunday December 28, 2008 @03:35PM (#26251235) Homepage

    You miss the point - delivering the Internet to conumers is only profitable for a company if they are a near-monopoly. Having a couple of customers here, a couple there doesn't work - there are labor-intensive resources that are tied to geography. Like fixing wires when they break.

    Wow, you pulled all that out of the AC's post? You can definitely read more between the lines than I can.

    Anyhow, the facts disagree with your belief that a monopoly is required to be profitable. I'm not surprised by this as you are among the majority who have either lost faith in free market and competition or never believed in it in the first place.

    In reviewing the latest 10Q SEC filing for Comcast [edgar-online.com] and AT&T [edgar-online.com], two opponents of net neutrality who arguably are engaged in a competitive market for broadband internet, they are making a tidy profit on their internet operations.

    Comcast had an operating income of $1.7 billion after expenses, depreciation and amortization on revenue of $8 billion for their cable segment for the last 3 months.

    AT&T had an operating income of $2.7 billion after expenses, depreciation and amortization on revenue of $17 billion for their wireline segment for the last 3 months.

    And so the battle goes on and on. Each side offering better numbers (speeds, etc.) and lower prices - utterly unsustainable prices that make no sense but designed to capture market share. Once the competition is eliminated prices can return to that which actually pays for the service, but not until.

    Welcome to the free market where ROI includes risk. It is sustainable and works for many other industries. Take a close look at electronics manufacturers, probably the most cut throat competitive industry around. Electronics manufacturers compete, some win some fail, the market continues and consumers get awesome products at great prices. When competitors lower their prices below sustainable levels in an attempt to gain market share and drive competitors out of business they are breaking the law, very much like breaking the law when competitors scheme to fix prices or use other illegal tactics to build or maintain monopoly positions so they can gouge consumers.

    Another side effect of this is the consumer isn't paying for access

    See the SEC reports, consumers are paying, providers are profiting. Reality trumps theory.

    especially when you can get a DSL connection for $14.95 a month

    That would be awesome! :) Unfortunately you picked the minimum data point for broadband access with nothing to explain exactly what you get for $14.95, the truth is that average broadband access rates are $53.06/month [oecd.org] in the United States.

    Think people are comfortable with the idea that the current ISPs are running at a loss and just hanging on with the hope of driving everyone else out?

    Please, read some of the financial statements for the corporations who are fighting net neutrality and who want to tax other companies who profit by providing valuable services over the network the ISP is already profiting from.

  • Re:Look CEOs (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 28, 2008 @03:37PM (#26251251)

    I think the thing people get most upset about is that once the company du jour manages to come in and take over, the quality of access degrades quickly. Monopolies don't care because they don't have to.

    Take Southern California. It is a prime example of the business practices you described. Comcast was here for a long time. So was Adelphia. There was competition, and while I had Comcast, I never had television or internet outages. I rarely even had slowness issues.

    Then, enter Time Warner, the crappiest cable company on earth. They take over the services of Comcast and Adelphia with their financial might. Not six months later, and my television starts going to pure snow every evening hour a couple hours. I ask Time Warner to come out 3 times over 2 months to fix it. They try everything they can - replacing DVR, replacing cabling everything. Still no good. Totally incompetent.

    I ask for those 2 months in credit for my TV service, and they refuse. I canceled my TV service on the spot, of course. Nice customer service.

    Then my internet starts bogging down to practically 56k speeds during the evening. It takes me nearly 8 months of calling, pestering, and complaining before someone FINALLY notices that the hub node in my area is way over-booked. They split the node and things are okay for about 5 months. Then Time Warner, as of about a month ago, starts having HTTP issues. It's not total routing (Steam continues to work just fine!) but I cannot access anything over the web. It still happens. They're clueless, and they don't care.

    I understand the economics involved in the ISPs - the problem is that once they get their monopoly, their service goes in the shitter. I would switch away from Time Warner in an instant if there were ANY other reasonable broadband option in West Los Angeles. One of the biggest economies in the world, and we can't even get fiber here. Amazing.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 28, 2008 @03:57PM (#26251413)

    Just ask the white South Africans how well ignoring their fellow poorer (black) men worked out. (Hint: They now all live in compounds guarded by professional mercenaries who make Blackwater look like amateurs.)

  • by reiisi ( 1211052 ) on Sunday December 28, 2008 @09:26PM (#26253715) Homepage

    I know what you mean, but in this case many of the theorists are promoting theories that allow their brand of corruption.

  • by aepervius ( 535155 ) on Monday December 29, 2008 @12:23AM (#26254651)
    Despite whatever economic propaganda you might subscribe to, there is always a "socialist/wealth redistribution" component in the most stable society, a redistribution of wealth from the richest to the poorest, and yes, you can see that as a punishment for your success to reward the loss of other. Society which do not do that, create a split between the poorest (which will tend never to accumulate wealth, live day to day and are at the mercy of any conjuncture change, loss of job etc...) and the richest. Once this gap increase beyond a point where the strain on the society are too much, you know what happens ? Societal breakdown. Possibly followed by civil war and / or revolt/revolution. And at THAT point, you will regret bitterly not having given enough from the richest most successful to the poorest, when you are put in a guillotine or put to the wall. In other word it is in your interest to share a bit of your success, to make sure you KEEP being successful (and alive). Now call me a kook if you want, but I tend to keep my eye open to the truism "the truly desperate has nothing to lose". The successful instead has everything to lose. Keep that in mind next time you grumble you don't want to share your success.
  • by mcrbids ( 148650 ) on Monday December 29, 2008 @06:23AM (#26256209) Journal

    Any effort by the State to manipulate or direct economic planning will lead to increasing economic irrationality and inefficiency.

    This sentence entirely ignores a reality of economics: economy is a product of government.

    Economy is a balance; on one hand you have private efforts which maximize personal profits at cost of the public good (see the tragedy of the commons [wikipedia.org] and on the other hand you have social "public entities" like governments which seek to preserve the commons.

    In truth, there is no such thing as a "free" economy - a "free" economy requires a government which provides infrastructure for operations. Infrastructure can include things like a universal currency, a set of laws which establish the rules of a market, physical commodities which can be used for commerce (such as roads, highways, information conduits) and a well-educated population.

    The reality is that economy is a product of a well-managed government. Take a look at the most obvious: the Internet.

    AOL tried to create an online universe. So did Compuserve, and countless others. They all failed because they were all tried to establish public infrastructure through private enterprise, which never works. That's the role of government, which establishes the public infrastructure that private enterprise takes advantage of.

    The government establishes public infrastructure (such as roads and highways) that private companies then exploit (such as Arco, ATT, Ford, NetZero) to make profits, which are then taxed by the government as a return on investment.

    This isn't "bad", it's a form of socialism that you exploit every day as you drive to work. And yes, I know that "socialism" is a bad word (tm) in the United States, but it's a reality that we all enjoy.

    Without this infrastructure, without a solid monetary system, without highways, clean water, roads, phones that work, etc. the modern economy would collapse overnight. Yet the modern economy didn't establish any of these - they all came from our government.

    The United States has one of the purest, most "open source" governments ever in Human History - it's just idiotic that so many Americans treat it with suspicion and contempt!

If all else fails, lower your standards.

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