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IBM Software

Campaign to Open Source IBM's Notes/Domino 255

Posted by ScuttleMonkey
from the if-you-can't-sell-it-use-it-for-free-advertising dept.
Ian Tree, an IT consultant from the Netherlands, has started a campaign to convince IBM to open source the code for Notes/Domino. Hoping for results similar to the push for Sun to open source Solaris, which finally saw success in 2005, Tree makes the simple point that it won't happen until someone asks. "By being an open source product, Tree is also hoping that Domino becomes something schools use to teach groupware and application development concepts, which is the holy grail for future market adoption. This is how various Unixes, relational databases, Linux, and a raft of other products eventually became commercialized. While the idea of open sourcing any proprietary program is appealing, in as much as it sets a program free to live beyond the commitment (or lack thereof) of its originator, it is hard to see why open Notes/Domino would have any more impact than OpenSolaris."
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Campaign to Open Source IBM's Notes/Domino

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  • uh, no? (Score:5, Funny)

    by girlintraining (1395911) on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:45PM (#26260763)

    Speaking on behalf of the poor bastards that have played with Notes: Please don't put him on our team. Really, Notes is like the last kid to get picked when we're making teams. He drops the ball lots and he cries even when we play tag only. We only let him play at all because the teacher makes us.

    • Re:uh, no? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dk90406 (797452) on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:56PM (#26260895)
      Don't worry. IBM will not allow Notes to come out and play freely with other kids. Others have worked on open sourcing OS/2 for years, but all have failed.

      The patents linked to the products, makes it a no-go. Besides, IBM still makes a lot of money from Notes/Domino.

      • How long ago was OS/2 developed? It's got to be getting close to that 15-year limit...

      • And, of course, Notes ran best on the OS/2 server platform. :)

        I should know. I WAS a Lotus Notes admin/developer/E-mail admin until '03. Boy, did I pick the wrong horse! The malfunctioning Domino Web server, which would render only some of the Native Notes elements requiring me to create parallel HTML/XML code for every single database form, the bloated Web Mail Java Applets that refuse to download/upload, and a total mess of the Email/database system.

        I still cringe when hearing references to progr
        • by DXLster (1315409) on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @08:36AM (#26267311)

          the bloated Web Mail Java Applets that refuse to download/upload, and a total mess of the Email/database system.

          The Domino Web Access client was one of the very first commercial AJAX implementations and didn't use any Java whatsoever. It came out in 2001 with release 5.0.8, and could be implemented by applying a new template to your mail -- a process that could be performed by a competent administrator in about 15 seconds across an entire server.

          I still cringe when hearing references to programing in Lotus Notes. The native language to Lotus Notes is the Lotus Formula language, where no looping allowed and certain functions could not be put before others for no good reason (or unpredictable side effects will occur).

          False. The native language to Lotus Notes is C, and there is a comprehensive C API that has been made available since version 1. The original end-user programming language was @formulas, and was styled after the 1-2-3 formula language back in 1989. In 2002, IBM released Notes/Domino version 6, which included a comprehensive rewrite of the @formula engine to dramatically improve performance and flexibility. It also added looping constructs.

          However, it's not like you couldn't do loops before. Notes 4 came out in 1994, and included Lotusscript -- a VB-like scripting language, which provided a sophisticated class model and extensive OOP capabilities. Lotusscript remains the dominant language in Notes/Domino development worldwide (though many devs on the platform are moving to Java & Javascript with the latest versions.)

          Then the dreaded DbLookup function. That one function alone caused so many intradatabase dependencies that I could not remove out-of-date documents in fear of causing problems in other seemly unrelated documents in bloated Databases.

          Wow. Sounds like you kept top-notch entity relationship diagrams.

          If you were running a MySQL database on the backend, would you know every single application in your environment that queried every table? Would that be MySQL's fault?

          Please, somebody kill Lotus Notes with FIRE!

          Yeah, let's kill a platform because zildgulf doesn't know how to write and document a computer program. So it must be bad!

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by whereiswaldo (459052)

        Please, get Notes out into the open! That way we can shoot it.
        What a horrible, horrible abomination.
        Or as this page calls it: "The Asbestos of Enterprise IT" [innovationcreators.com].

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Chapter80 (926879)

      Ian Tree, an IT consultant from the Netherlands, has started a campaign to convince IBM to open source the code for Notes/Domino.

      It's rumored that this same consultant is trying to get a footer placed on every outbound email that says "Don't print this email. Save a Tree."

      • by Chapter80 (926879)

        But if a consultant falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear his recommendations, does he make a sound?

        Thank you, I'm here all week.

  • by fucket (1256188) on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:47PM (#26260793)
    The perfect storm of horrible interface design. If only we could get the geniuses behind Band-in-a-Box on board.
    • by qbzzt (11136)

      That is a reason to open source it, so it will be easy for others to develop better UIs which keeping the same database (and therefore compatibility).

      Note: I am an IBM employee, but this is my personal opinion. I am not involved in Lotus Notes in any way beyond using it.

    • Band-in-a-box is wonderful software. It serves the real user needs.

      In this case it is quite obvious that the request is a 'troll' from competitors.

    • by Koda (465239) on Monday December 29, 2008 @09:55PM (#26264717)

      Disclaimer: During a different stage of my IT career, I was a certified Lotus Domino Application Developer -and- System Administrator.

      The Lotus Notes UI WAS overdue for a significant overhaul. For years, it wasn't horrible interface design, but LACK of design that led to the meandering mess that most people experienced in the last two decades.

      As of August 2007, IBM finally released a truly well-designed Lotus Notes mail client: Lotus Notes version 8.0, which is, IMHO, the most comprehensive remaking of the Lotus Notes client and its e-mail interface since Notes began. Every client release up until now had UI changes that were evolutionary at best.

      The new client itself now sits on top of the Eclipse Rich Client Framework, and will consequently run on Windows and Linux (Mac support coming shortly with 8.5). And you can still access all the same Lotus Notes corporate applications that range considerably in quality. And in fact, the Notes 8.x client can still access Domino 7.x mail files, and they will look exactly the same as they did before (although client menus have changed).

      But if you run Domino 8.x servers, with the 8.x mail template, and are using Notes 8.x, the e-mail UI is a ground-up redesign that is far superior to anything that came before it. If you've ever whined about Lotus Notes mail in the past, you should check it out - that complaint is now outdated.

      My 2 bits...

  • CouchDB (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SanityInAnarchy (655584) <ninja@slaphack.com> on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:49PM (#26260813) Journal

    CouchDB [apache.org], which has been generating some [eflorenzano.com] hype [blogspot.com] lately (especially among Rails fans), is by Damien Katz [damienkatz.net], who did work on LotusNotes and Domino, and claims CouchDB is inspired by that.

    According to him, Lotus got a lot of things wrong, but it got the database right.

    I don't know if there would be anything to gain from the original (even just to read through it), or if we should all be focused on CouchDB now, but it would be interesting to find out.

    • It's been a while since I've done Notes but I seem to recall that the database was the central problem with Notes. I seem to remember best describing it as a slightly multiuser filemaker pro flat format with a lot of hype to rip off IBM for a few billion dollars. Notes is infamous for its email client being terrible but if it had had a good database to begin with, then, 3rd parties could have salvaged a good groupware database product with add on tools or even clients. That few have emerged speaks volume

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        I seem to remember best describing it as a slightly multiuser filemaker pro flat format with a lot of hype to rip off IBM for a few billion dollars.

        I'm really not sure what it's got to do with FileMaker Pro, as I don't know a lot about Notes. I could compare FileMaker with CouchDB, though:

        CouchDB is schema-free. There are no predefined columns. Each record is any JSON object, with no constraints other than that it be valid JSON.

        Older versions of FileMaker are, indeed, one table per "database" -- but it was very much a fixed-schema table. Each record had exactly the same fields. I've seen more than one nightmare database which would have been vastly imp

        • My problem with Notes was that a lack of a relational structure made it awkward to do something like a document management system in it, where you would want to have a table of authors recipients and other persons associated with documents in a relational sense. The hope was that you could use a notes database to represent the rich document stuff, which it could kinda do, but also, have some sort of a relational, at least more strongly typed nested collection representation with it and you simply couldn't.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Koda (465239)

        The Notes "database" was one of the strengths and weaknesses of Lotus Notes.

        Background - speaking strictly about the native Notes Storage Facility (.nsf) format (and not to newer options for RDMS virtualization or or DB2 backend for custom development):
        - Everything in Lotus Notes is stored in a "note", each of which has an XML-like data structure. Keep in mind that there was no such thing as XML, or even the internet, when Lotus Notes was first developed.
        - User data notes are usually called "documents".
        - T

    • by mdm-adph (1030332)

      Wow -- I've just been reading through CouchDB's overview, and that's definitely inspired by Domino. :P

      Of course, I like it for that very reason.

  • *ring*ring* (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BadAnalogyGuy (945258) <BadAnalogyGuy@gmail.com> on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:50PM (#26260819)

    Hi, can I talk to the product manager of Outlook? Thanks, I'll hold.

    Hello? Hi, I think it would be spiffy if you would consider open-sourcing Outlook. No, the whole shebang, not just the client. Yeah, server side components and everything.

    I think it would prolong the life of the product since it would allow it to exist beyond your commitment to it. And you know, as the saying goes, more eyes lead to shallower bugs.

    So what I'm proposing is that you open up the source and give it away for free. Then you could...

    Hello? Hello?

  • Slow news day? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DXLster (1315409) on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:50PM (#26260827)

    Dumb idea. Whether you love Notes or hate it, open sourcing it would just be dumb when there's already 800 engineers working on it inside IBM. The number of developers that would contribute to it would drop dramatically.

    If you want to develop open source applications ON TOP of Notes/Domino -- you can just look to http://www.openntf.org/ [openntf.org]

    • Dumb idea. Whether you love Notes or hate it, open sourcing it would just be dumb when there's already 800 engineers working on it inside IBM.

      I've worked for IBM in the past. IBM has some very smart people, but also plenty of idiots. I wouldn't assume that 800 programmers = 800 average-or-better programmers.

      • by Ilgaz (86384)

        What about 8000 college students who has no obligation to put quality code or no clue about real life/business needs adding "features" each day to a billion dollar/year selling product? Business people getting kicked/banned from IRC channels or looking up dictionary trying to understand what "RTFM" is?

        People should think why businesses buy IBM software/services and why IBM is called "Big Blue" before asking them such things.

        • by Kalriath (849904) *

          Indeed. We actually use Notes here (fuck knows why) and I can't imagine our 3rd level tech people (i.e. me) wanting to spend time trying to get support for Notes on IRC because IBM support isn't entirely sure what the last seven checkins did (what the fuck feature are you talking about again? We didn't add that!)

    • there's already 800 engineers working on it inside IBM. The number of developers that would contribute to it would drop dramatically.

      Question: Is Notes still actually being sold? As a consumer application?

      If so, I can see your point. If not -- if it's not being sold, or if it's being sold as an enterprise-level app -- I see no reason IBM would take those 800 engineers off the project, once open sourced.

      More simplistically: If open sourcing it means less money for IBM, I can see where this would be a bad idea, because IBM couldn't afford to have as many people on it. If open sourcing it means no change, or more money for IBM, I see no rea

      • Re:Slow news day? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by DXLster (1315409) on Monday December 29, 2008 @03:40PM (#26261325)

        The Notes/Domino product line generates somewhere in the neighborhood of a billion dollars a year for IBM in pure software sales (not services.) It's also recorded 15 consecutive quarters of double-digit growth, and has grown by over 50% since 2004.

        You can see more at the long-running blog of Ed Brill, former worldwide head of sales for Notes/Domino, and currently Director of End-User Messaging and Collaboration. He just finished a year-in-review post http://edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/2008-the-blogging-year-in-review [edbrill.com]

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mdm-adph (1030332)

        I don't know very much about the consumer/client side to notes, but I work on quite a bit of web apps that use the Domino (server-side) part, and I'm telling you, I wouldn't work with anything else. The ease at which I can create a system using Domino leaves something like ASP (which I've worked with too) in the dust.

        And it's not even anything fancy to do with UI -- just the security aspects of building a web application with Domino is by far the easiest thing I've ever done. Heck, just the individual use

        • I work on quite a bit of web apps that use the Domino (server-side) part, and I'm telling you, I wouldn't work with anything else.

          Have you seen CouchDB [apache.org]?

          The ease at which I can create a system using Domino leaves something like ASP (which I've worked with too) in the dust.

          Have you seen Rails?

          Just curious -- I haven't actually worked with Lotus.

    • open sourcing it would just be dumb when there's already 800 engineers working on it inside IBM. The number of developers that would contribute to it would drop dramatically.

      Yes, apparently open sourcing an application now 'requires' that you fire/reassign all of your developers! We've all been misinterpreting section 5 of the GPL for years now!

      BBH
  • ...the horrors that must lie waiting within the source code for Lotus Notes.

    Schools could use the Notes source to teach the basics of how to build slow, confusing, fragile applications with utterly non-standard user interfaces. Notes is by far the worst piece of software I use regularly. On the other hand, opening its source would let me fix that bug that keeps reminding me I missed the same meeting reminders over and over again.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      opening its source would let me fix that bug that keeps reminding me I missed the same meeting reminders over and over again.

      If you could find the bug :)

  • Haven't we been asking for an exchange replacement for years? One that connects to outlook and does all that exchange does? Isn't this (and a sharepoint replacement) what's needed in the "linux portfolio" of office apps?

    • by quanticle (843097)

      Notes+Domino may or may not do everything that Outlook+Exchange does (I don't know, I'm just a user, not an admin). However, I'm not sure that there's perfect compatibility between Notes and Outlook, so, even if Notes were to be open-sourced, all we'd get is another Zimbra, at best.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        There's extremely good compatibility between Outlook and a Domino mail server owing to the connectors available from either IBM or Microsoft (Domino Access for Microsoft Outlook and Microsoft Office Outlook Connector for Domino, respectively).
    • by perlchild (582235)

      Actually you're reminding me that comparing it to Solaris is the wrong comparison. It's closer to netscape/mozilla. Take commercial product tired of (maybe not-so) successfully competing with a Microsoft product, open source it, and get it in use everywhere. Bang, instant developer platform.

    • As far as I understand (from third-hand experience only), the biggest problem with Notes is that it does way more than Outlook, which justifies the insane complexity.

      PS: I believe Notes already has something along the lines of Sharepoint, but you'd be better asking someone who's actually used it.

    • by edmicman (830206)
      I've never used Notes/Domino, but what little I've heard here and there it seems like it's a much smaller mindshare than the Exchange/Outlook behemoth. I don't really see what open sourcing something that doesn't even really compete would do.

      I do agree that the Exchange/Outlook/[Sharepoint] replacement would be a huge boost to the open source movement. What I don't get is why everything seems to just insist on chasing one part of the Microsoft ecosystem.

      So there's a plethora of mail servers. Outloo
  • by quanticle (843097) on Monday December 29, 2008 @02:56PM (#26260885) Homepage

    As I state in the title, companies only open-source unprofitable products. As I understand it, Sun was willing to open-source Solaris because it was no longer profitable by itself - instead, it was just driving sales of Sun hardware. Until I see some similar evidence regarding Notes (showing that its unprofitable on its own and only drives sales of other IBM products), call me a skeptic of this effort.

    • by PCM2 (4486)

      As I state in the title, companies only open-source unprofitable products.

      But Sun open sourced Java, and Jonathan Schwartz claims that Java is Sun's most profitable software product.

      • by Kalriath (849904) *

        Except that Sun never sold Java. I'd say that the reality is that Sun makes its money off Java support, and platforms like JCAPS. And open sourcing Java doesn't preclude either of those two things from happening.

  • by nighty5 (615965)

    In the event that Notes is open sourced, I doubt this will greatly impact the reach of the product further into the enterprise.

    Notes is such a horrid development platform who only seen the Web as a medium a few ages ago. The last major release closed some of the gap but it has a far, far way to go.

    There's a difference between open sourcing OpenSolaris, and open sourcing Notes which the article fails to mention. Sun has something to gain by open sourcing OpenSolaris: to sell more Sun hardware. Notes can run

    • Re:Yawn (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Belial6 (794905) on Monday December 29, 2008 @05:04PM (#26262181)
      "who only seen the Web as a medium a few ages ago"

      Only if you consider 1996 to be a few years ago. Domino's biggest problem is that it has been too far ahead of it's competitors, so it is common for people not to understand the benefits that it offers, and by the time the rest of the industry catches up, the features have been rebuild a little different, and the people who now start to understand it complain because the feature that Domino had a decade earlier doesn't look just like the program that was developed this year.
  • Please, let Notes remain closed source forever! After having been forced to work with Notes by an employer, I have become convinced it is an evil piece of software, designed to corrupt the minds of its users. Give it to schools, and whole generations could be lost, forever doomed to believe that software cannot be user-friendly. In fact, let's start counter-movement to convince IBM that Notes is a dead product, and should be removed from the market ASAP. For the children!

    (And don't give me that crap about
    • by poetmatt (793785)

      7.5 brings it up to date, and 8 is supposedly better.

      Meanwhile, since sametime is used on old-ass corporations that upgrade slower than a dead turtle crossing the desert, most people are still stuck on 6. /running 7.5.1.2 right now, it's "okay". I don't know how people can live on 6.

      I do actually hope Lotus opens up, it'd be nice. Would be a hell of a lot easier getting it running on Ubuntu for sure.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Blakey Rat (99501)

        Yeah, right. We got that song-and-dance from IBM/Lotus when 5 came out. "5's just as good as Outlook!" It ain't. Then when 6 came out. Oh look! Version 6, someone at IBM finally heard of this thing called a "scrollwheel" and it works... about a third of the time. And hey, guess what, it only took IBM until version 6.5 to get Notes working correctly on a multi-user Windows OS. That's only 10+ years after multi-user Windows OSes came out! Lightning development pace.

        The number of extremely trivial, basic featu

  • by erroneus (253617) on Monday December 29, 2008 @03:18PM (#26261123) Homepage

    Ah yes, Netscape. I was never a fan of Netscape. I thought MSIE was better and faster for the longest while. Netscape was, at one time, very closed. But once things got going, Firefox came out of it. Perhaps the same might happen with this? People WANT an open source groupware server and the ones that exist now seem to lack in one way or another. But perhaps a project that starts with working code, just as Firefox started out, could turn into something a lot better... something that could kick Exchange and MS Office to the curb.

    • by Keruo (771880)

      I understand this point perfectly.

      I loathe notes/domino and yet I'm forced to use it every day(from another companys servers).
      I'd love to fix certain idiotisms in it to fit my preferences if it were opensource.

      Seriously, which f*cking application locks screen after pressing F5 on email screen, instead refreshing the screen?

      I hate domino aswell, but if I had option to use it for free, I'd deploy it companywide without hesitating.
      It just works, and since I'm working at small company with limited resources, we

    • by powerlord (28156)

      I think its a perfect comparison, but remember that the Mozilla team tried working with the Netscape code for about a year before they just decided to scrap it all and start from scratch.

      It might almost make more sense to do that, but the problem is that I think it needs either/both a dedicated core group of developers and a corporate entity backing the process.

    • Netscape was, at one time, very closed. But once things got going, Firefox came out of it. Perhaps the same might happen with this?

      It seems, if not downright improbable, at least less probable than with a web browser; a lot less people willing to work with a second-best groupware server without professional support than their would be for a web browser.

      But perhaps a project that starts with working code, just as Firefox started out, could turn into something a lot better... something that could kick Excha

  • by Chris Mattern (191822) on Monday December 29, 2008 @03:18PM (#26261125)

    You not only want to expose the source code of Bloated Goats to the world but intentionally expose young people to it? Good Lord, man, have you no mercy in soul at all?

    • by waveclaw (43274)

      But with quality source code from Its Been Mangled engineering, there is much for young people to learn!

      • Techniques for fast, lightweight code. Oh, wait, isn't version 8 built on Eclipse?
      • Methods for Workflow design. From the company whose logo could be 'Have it our way'?
      • Tricks for building scalable databases. You ever restored an ntf file? The Domino admin forgot to disable replication on that ntf file and Domnio puked all over the db, you say? Restore the file again, George.
  • ÂQue? (Score:2, Funny)

    by MouseR (3264)

    "open source Solaris which finally saw success in 2005"

    What? WHAT?? How? When?? By whom?

    Why didn't I get the memo??

  • If IBM open-sources a piece of crap like Notes and doesn't open-source a masterpiece like Workplace Shell, that's it. I'm out.

    Oh wait, I'm not really an IBM customer in the first place....

  • So there's a point to be made here. And while IBM makes mad loot from Notes, the latest version, Notes 8 has sufficient problems that they could use more eyes on it

  • Dear Ian Tree: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jcr (53032) <jcr.mac@com> on Monday December 29, 2008 @04:03PM (#26261551) Journal

    The code you want doesn't belong to you. It belongs to IBM's shareholders. If you want it, make an offer.

    Sincerely,

    IBM.

  • database vs mail (Score:5, Informative)

    by faraday_cage (1386755) on Monday December 29, 2008 @04:19PM (#26261705)
    As a former Notes Sys Administrator, it had its benefits, and its problems. The fact of the matter was that the email and scheduling part of it were never its strengths. The databases, and the applications that it built were by far superior groupware than anything I have seen. Oh to be able to replicate something like Access databases at the click of a button for users who do need to work on data offline. As an earlier commenter said, they got the database right. Everyone just assumed they 'tacked on' the email and calendar as an afterthought to facilitate workflow solutions. Notes Replication was simply the best (when it was configured properly). But having previously installed Notes clients and managed it, I can tell you that setup of the client was a breeze compared to setting up and configuring Exchange/Outlook. From an end user perspective, there were some things they got very right, and still as many they got wrong. But comparing it to Outlook (apart from the few scheduler limitations), it was far cleaner and quicker in so many ways.
  • Lets go ahead and open source the absolute worst groupware platform out there. That should convince people that Open Source Software rules!! I'd rather use Groupwise than Notes.
  • This is a very good idea. I like Notes/Domino as a collaboration and messaging platform. I especially like the message encryption features and the ability to prevent an email from being forwarded or otherwise manipulated. The only downside to Domino is that it can be unfriendly to administer. The good news is that, if it becomes open sourced, it will be more economical to learn and deploy in small labs and use and become competent. The author of the article makes an excellent case for it by citing Sola
  • Being stuck in an environment where opensource projects are rejected out of hand, and stuck in an environment where notes is the standard for "collaboration" (which is a funny way to spell "e-mail system that no one, anywhere within the company, can stand. Especially the people who implement and support it.") , I'm in a win-win. We either start looking at open source projects, or we ditch Notes.

    If this actually happens (which it won't, but a girl can dream right?), I'll be the guy dancing in the streets.

  • What does Notes offer the Open Source community?

  • Please, please, please IBM, open source Lotus SmartSuite.
    Especially WordPro and 1-2-3. Specifically the InfoBox.

    That way the developers of OpenOffice maybe throw away their bloated, badly designed imitation of MS Office.
    You know... because you can't expect them to do anything creative by themselves, because of the childr... eehem... I mean... those who are used to MS Office.

    Replace one of them by me (including the income at Sun), and I'll give you an UI that's so great, geeks and Joe Sixpacks can jack off t

  • Ugh (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Thaelon (250687) on Monday December 29, 2008 @05:00PM (#26262139)

    I wouldn't use it if it was free!

    I had to use that POS back in my days working for a DoD contractor.

    Who cares if the underlying db is sound, the client exposed way too much of the db and as a result was a user interface clusternightfuckmare. Yes, it was so bad I had to make up a word for it.

    Even Outlook with it's Russian Nesting Doll configuration options*, is a way ahead of Lotus.

    *If you're not sure what I mean, follow these instructions for an extreme example from Outlook 2003:
    Tools->Options->Mail Setup->Send/Receive...->Edit->Account Properties->Advanced->Remote Mail->Retrieve items->Filter->Advanced.

    You'll now be six modal dialogs deep in it's options, past two Advanced buttons!

    Further, did you know it's possible to change your domain password from within Outlook's nesting dolls? I'm not kidding! But good luck finding it.

  • Notes? Please no!! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rudy_wayne (414635) on Monday December 29, 2008 @05:06PM (#26262201)

    I have been forced to use Lotus Notes at work for 10 years now. If you don't understand why people hate Notes just Google "Lotus Notes sucks" and you'll find plenty of detailed explanations of the several million things that are wrong with Notes.

    Notes must die.

  • Open Source This... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by System_390 (749803) on Tuesday December 30, 2008 @01:07AM (#26265657)

    Some of us would like to see IBM "open source" other stuff, like OS, VSE, VM. Heck, they can keep the source, just give us a hobby, or a "not for profit" license...

    And they can keep the current stuff, the stuff they make money on today - like z and ESA. I'ld be more than happy if I could run something like the 20+ year old VSE/SP on my PC at home, under Hercules...

    But no, we're stuck with 40 year old "public domain" software, stuff like DOS 26.2 from the System/360 days. Hey, it was fun, I was the "Sysgen Kid" back then. But it only remotely relates to what an, even 20 year old mainframe, is all about today, stuff like CICS...

    CICS is a perfect example. Back in the 1.x days, you had 100% of the CICS source code, as long as you had a license. Today "transactiuon server" is a big secret...

    Sorry for the OT rant, but it ticks me off. IBM has dumped billions into Linux, but us old greybeards, those of us that wrote those countless lines of Assembly and COBOL and RPG, and yes, CICS code, custom code, without which IBM would have a great OS and nothing else. Those of us that worked shift after shift of unpaid OT, tweaking that demo, making it perfect for the guy that will be spending the IT budget. Those of us that helped make IBM what it is. Those of us that truly enjoy what we do, as a job and hobby...

    We can't play with our toys at home, legally that is...

    I'm going to retire in a few years. I won't be a licensed user any longer. And I surely can't afford the 4 figure monthly "commercial" software license fee, let alone the 6 figures to "buy" it...

    Come on IBM, great "open source" promoter that you have become lately. Do it for us original geeks, we need something to do in our old age...

    Open source this - VSE/SP 3.1

If a 6600 used paper tape instead of core memory, it would use up tape at about 30 miles/second. -- Grishman, Assembly Language Programming

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