Ian Lamont writes "Last year, there was a lot of hopeful discussion surrounding an initiative to have the consumer electronics industry standardize their products on a USB-based universal power adapter devised by Green Plug. Eight months later, the effort has stalled. The reason: manufacturers have balked from using Green Plug's technology. '... Gadget makers seem to have no compelling financial incentive to adopt Green Plug's technology. It would require them to add Green Plug's chip, or similar hardware and software, into every phone, camera, or music player they build, making them more expensive and more complicated to build. Another stumbling block for manufacturers: A universal power supply would kill the market for replacement power supplies. Manufacturers sell these at a steep markup price to customers who lose or break the original one that came with the device, and aren't tech-savvy enough to procure a low-cost generic replacement.' Green Plug is now trying to drum up public outcry through a (slow) website, but the number of supportive comments and votes remains relatively low."
...will become a standard power connector with or without these clowns. It's just about perfect for powering and/or charging just about any handheld device, and with Apple leading the way I expect that USB connectors will start showing up in airplanes, cars, and other such places very soon.
Whatever genius MBA thought that manufacturers would gleefuly license some special connector/protocol just to be able to charge their own products should be taken out back and shot. The language on their web site is absurdly disingenuous in stating the the device-side stuff is free. What benefit is that to the device manufacturer? Do they expect major device manufacturers to promote their proprietary chargers out of the goodness of their heart? What a crock.
If you think USB is scary for the host, check out Firewire's ability to automatically DMA into the host's address space.
I know about that. I once reported it as a Linux kernel bug, because the driver unconditionally turns that feature on. It's almost never used. The hardware has a bounds limit register for externally initiated read/write operations, and you can set that to 0. Amusingly, it's unconditionally set to allow access to the first 4GB under Linux, even for 64-bit systems.
Actually no they don't. Maybe for handheld devices but some devices really work a lot better with higher voltage. I am all for standardized power adapters but the USB port is far from prefect for every device. Now why they can not standardize wall worts so you can not plug a 12V wall wart into a 5V device I will never no.
They have actually, the EIAJ connectors which you are starting to see more often have standardized sizes, such that "If it fits, it will work.". You can recognize EIAJ plugs and sockets because they have a yellow plastic rim.
Between EIAJ for higher voltage/current, and USB for low voltage/current, I think we have the universal DC supply covered.
Though, I would love it if my laptop could be recharged via power over ethernet. Not quite enough power can be provided for todays laptops, but a netbook should be able to run off of it.
USB is 5v. USB2.0 maxes out at "5" units of 100mA, with USB3.0 providing a staggering "6" units of 150mA. Thats.5A and.9A. That gives you 2.5 watts and 4.5 watts. There are proposed additions to let USB source up to 1.8A if the port is not sending data, and up to 1.5A in low speed mode.
Looking at the numbers, the whole notion that USB could ever become the dominant standard for power seems laughable to me. USB may be a convenient means of providing a trickle charge, but with batteries getting considerably higher C rates we need 10x beefier power supplies than what USB will ever be capable of.
Power Over Ethernet+ (PoE+) is targetting 24w: thats no quickcharge, but unlike USB its least enough to run a small computer.
You're talking about what a USB host is required to provide to a device... but your information is wrong. Or at least, incomplete. 100mA is the _minimum_ that a host must be prepared to supply before a negotiation can take place where it can then ask for up to 1 amp.
But again, that's just about what a PC is required to deliver per the specification. There is nothing to prevent, say, a cell phone maker from including their own charger that can deliver a couple amps more. As long as it's not going to put out more than 5V it's not going to hurt anything, and the device would still be able to charge just fine, albeit at a slower rate, from a standard port.
POE is a different story. At 48VDC it is designed to power things like security cameras and IP phones at distances of a couple hundred feet. It wouldn't be suitable for charging a cell phone because it would require more expensive (and less efficient) power supplies, and the RJ45 connector is not designed for rugged, repeated cycling consumer use.
The spec does not support 1 amp. If you want to talk about manufacturers going off on their own to extend the spec in a proprietary fashion, I think you lose the usefulness of the standard USB interconnect. A good example is the Macbook Air cdrom, which works with nothing except the usb on the Macbook Air.
No, what that says is that initial device current must be limited to 100mA (USB2) or 500mA (USB3) per port, that the current drain of bus-powered hubs must be limited to ((# of ports)*100mA)+100mA (which is why bus-powered hubs > 4 ports are rare), and that that is the minimum a root hub must be able to supply in order to conform with the specs.
According to the full spec, not just the FAQ version, devices are free to negotiate for up to 1A (USB2; dunno about USB3 but I'd guess it's higher), and it's up to the root hub to say "yay" or "nay".
I've got to add that using Apple as an example of leading the way to USB power is a bad joke for me, personally. I have the last gen MacBook Pro and bought an external hard drive for my local back-up. It turns out USB doesn't provide enough power via a single connector, so you have to use a USB A/B connector and splitter to plug it into two USB ports. Apple used to put both USB ports on the same side, but changed it with the previous generation - so now the awkward splitter on the A/B cable can't reach both
Actually no, I have a PowerBook G4, it has two USB ports, and they are on different sides. Got the same problem with an external hard drive: It works with one plug on nearly all computers I have access to, but not on the Powerbook - here I need to use the splitter.
IEEE 1394 S3200 supplies up to 45 watts right now. 1.5 amps at up to 30 volts.
I'm sure this will bring up arguments to the contrary, but as a data transmitter, it's also superior to USB in supporting peer-to-peer device communication and multiple hosts per bus.
The old problem of higher per unit costs due to licensing fees has been resolved, as the fees have been discarded.
Does anyone know what the price difference is for basic Firewire vs. USB chips, connectors, and cables these days? That is, s
In fact, USB has several issues : it is 5V while almost nothing works with 5V right now, which implies a conversion everywhere. But if we want to put converters everywhere, 5V is very low to start with, it'd be better to start with 18-19V like most notebook adapters. Also, the USB plug delivers low power which is often not enough to power a hard disk, reason why most USB/ATA adapters ship with a second wire to double the power input. Another problem with such a low voltage is that you cannot have a common r
The only problem with USB as a standard for power is that the power output is too low for laptop computers to charge and operate at the same time. I feel that USB and mini USB is ideal for thousands of small devices, but we either need to up the power capacity of USB or have one standard for low power devices, and another for mid-range power users like camcorders and laptop computers.
Exactly two of Apple's products have ever had a standard USB charging connector: the 512 meg 1st gen shuffle and the 1 gig 1st gen shuffle. All their other devices have some sort of proprietary thing. Their power bricks, at least, have USB "A" connectors, where applicable, which is better than some; but the notion that they are leading the charge to standardization is absurd.
Virtually all recent motorola phones have standard USB mini B connectors, as do loads of assorted mp3 players and whatnot, it isn't really a new thing.
Huh? All of Apple's portable devices charge over USB or, if it's an older iPod, a Firewire port. This has always been the case. You're looking at the wrong end of the equation. If there's a USB port on the wall, you can plug it in. The other end, on the device, is not the goal of the project, which is to standardize DC power sources to be universal. Plug the device into the USB port and get a charge. You still have to bring your own cords. The idea is to eliminate the pile of wall warts, so that all devices can plug into them. Apple's wall chargers are a near-perfect example of what the Universal Power Adapter hopes to achieve--plugs into the wall, accepts USB cables for charging, delivers 5V DC. On planes and in public spaces where this would make a difference, you'd always have to supply your own cables, so the device end is mostly irrelevant.
Using Motorola as a counterexample is a poor choice, since most Motorola phones won't charge over a standard USB cable unless it's recognized on the other end.
Moreover, no one is saying it's a new thing to charge over USB--it's been done since 1997. Lots of companies have provided the option, and I would tend to agree that claiming that Apple is "leading the way" is something of an overstatement, but not if you accept the underlying premise that those "assorted" mp3 players and scattered other portable devices lack the conspicuousness, weight, and influence of Apple. You seem to be rather wide of the mark, though.
USB connectors should be standard. Problem is what manufacturers do with said connector.
Example: my Motorola cell phone uses the standard mini-USB form factor for both charging and data transfer, but other brands of chargers(except those specifically designated for Motorola) with the same form factor will not work. My phone also cannot "talk to" my computer or even charge from my computer's USB without an extra kit(which is just a usb cable and a driver CD) I would have to buy. Until then, I'm going to hook my cable up to a sampling O-scope and reverse engineer that bitch;)
The USB connections themselves are only a form factor. As the summary stated, any manufacturer can do whatever the hell they want with it after that. The MBA's who came up with that idea should be shot, but they've still made their company lots of dough.
Here's an idea; Powered by Slashdot® - harness the power of slashdot traffic to generate enough energy to power a small country. If we can ever solve the pickle matrix, we might even be able to generate several megawatts solely from "In Soviet Russia..." jokes.
The few companies that produce and sell devices that have standard USB ports, customers will jump all over that, and the other companies will have to change their products to use USB to become competitive. Either that or the consumer electronics industry is being noncompetitive and the US Department of Justice needs to lay the smack down on them.
Whenever something becomes a commodity it destroys any profits the producers make. Of course THEY like it that you can't just use your standard plug in every device. They get to sell you an extra power supply for your car and one for work/travel. Then when you replace the phone, they make sure your new phone is incompatible with the old plugs so they can sell them all again. Great for electronics producers, bad for consumers. The cost to them of being compatible is a non-issue.
My blackberry, and bluetooth earpiece both charge off mini-usb. I've got a mini-USB to nintendo DS adapter (fits in the DS case nicely) and the only other mobile electronics I use are my electric shaver (stays in the bathroom) and iPod (charges in the FM broadcasting cradle in the car) during my drive to work. USB 3.0 is supposed to handle 1.5amps, or three times what it is designed to handle currently.
Just because the company has the name "green" in it doesn't mean it's automatically a substantially better idea than what already exists (mini-usb) and what is in the pipeline (USB 3.0).
My iPhone and Jawbone both charge off USB (in fact, you only get a USB cable with a wall adapter with both). Considering how easy mini USB steps up to regular USB, I'd say that things are nicely progressing without the need of this "Green" company. I would argue that most manufacturers that'd be willing to switch to USB chargers would most likely have the know-how to do it without going to a proprietary-standard-provider.
I use are my electric shaver (stays in the bathroom
Actually my electric razor does charge over USB. I use USB chargeable AA batteries in it. I got some as a promotional item but usbcell.com sell them online. I have to admit I was skeptical but these things really are brilliant.
Now if only they would start selling the AAA ones I would not need to buy replacement batteries for my headphones once a month.
There is little reason to even get a universal power adapter. USB is standard for just about every modern phone today along with most low-cost MP3 players, etc. There are a multitude of reasons not to go with a universal power adapter other than "the evil corporations are making us pay more". The most obvious one is that some devices require more power than others. Other reasons are some of the port sizes are too large/small for the device to be useful. For example, a tiny MP3 player might not have room for even a mini USB plug, however it can use the headphone jack to power/sync it. Similarly larger electronics may need more secure connections (as in not falling out, not like encryption) than others. Some might need to be designed to be easily yanked out, others might need ways of making sure it doesn't fall out.
For just about all popular gadgets, it is very very easy to walk into almost any store and get a replacement or third party cable. About the only industry that I would see benefiting from this is laptops, a standard laptop connection cable (like desktops) would be a lifesaver some times.
You might want to investigate the Kensington model K33197US power supply. It's a counter to your argument. I'd rather it be open source, but the thing is too ingenious and practical to ignore, regardless. The Kensington design is what the Green Plug should have been.
My wife lost her phone charger and bought a replacement for $70!!! Can't be more than a few dollars worth of parts and plastic. Pretty obvious that they wouldn't want to jeopardize that income.
Either my Google-fu is weak, or GreenPlug's "standard" is of the "Well, if everybody in the entire world licences our technology, it will be standard" flavor. Unimpressive. If you are all fuzzy and care about bunnies and the earth, then come up with an open spec(which, incidentally, we largely have for low power devices, in the form of USB, and could probably come up with pretty easily for higher power stuff by producing a 12 or 24 volt USB analog). If you just want to have every electronic widget ever depend on your proprietary chips, then fuck you.
And more importantly, how are they involved? USB is already a standard. This isn't rocket science. The standards are already agreed upon. China managed to require a universal power supply, and they can't even get their human-rights in order. All it takes is one "standard device end", one "standard source end" and an agreement over what the upper and lower limits are! We have lots of those! Not just USB, either!
I was thinking about making something just like this. Currently sitting on my desk, I have my laptop, 2 external hard drives, a wireless router, a USB hub, and a cell phone charger, some speakers, and an LED desk lamp (powered by another cell phone charger). Except for the speakers and the laptop, all these devices take 12V and/or 5V. I was thinking about getting a small ATX (or similar) power supply and adding some connectors for power. Then I would cut the proprietary end off each gadget's power supply and turn them into adapters for my "standard" connectors (.1" headers would probably work well). That way I could make a cord exactly as long as I need, and I only have to have one power cord plugged into my surge protector, instead of 3 wall-warts and 2 power cords. It would also make my desk neater since I wouldn't have bundles of coiled up cords that are longer than I need.
Here is the maximum power requirements of everything that runs at 12V or 5V. During normal use, I will never max out everything, so I could probably get away with a 120VAC to 12VDC power supply and a PicoPSU [mini-box.com] or something similar.
8A @ 5V; 40 watts
5A @ 12V; 60 watts
Manufacturers sell these at a steep markup price to customers who lose or break the original one that came with the device, and aren't tech-savvy enough to procure a low-cost generic replacement.
You mean like going on eBay, searching for "iPod power", and buying one for 6-10 bucks? If that's a challenge, are you even capable of operating the device?
From the web site: "Green Plug is the first developer of digital technology enabling real-time collaboration between electronic devices and their power sources..."
First class marketspeak, that is. Collaboration, you say, between electronic devices and power sources. In real time. Using digital technology. Do I need to worry about my devices and power sources becoming mutinous, then?
Or can I just stick with USB which seems to power almost every electronic device I carry around? I daresay I don't actually know WHERE the chargers that came with most of my devices are, since I just charge them all though USB. Green Plug has already lost its battle. The only hope they might have is to embrace and extend the USB standard.
China has enforced the law to require all new cell phone to use standardized USB power adaptors since last year, to cut down adaptors in landfill. Why is democratic, earth-caring nation dragging its feeds?
I don't think this can happen. There are actually economic disincentives for those in control of the manufacturers to adopt a standard like this. I applaud the altruism here, but it fails to "incentivize" the standardization for the manufacturers. Manufacturers - those in control of mass production - are not so much intent on realizing the full collective efficiency and savings of mass production as they are in twisting the whole process to benefit them and slightly disadvantage those who buy their product. They waste resources and labor on unnecessarily frequent redesign cycles and impose planned obsolescence and proprietary schemes, all in the name of disproportionate profit. The end result is a waste and perversion of the collective potential of mass production.
What Green Plug proposes makes PERFECT sense from an altruistic, socialistic, Big Picture perspective... which also means it makes absolutely NO sense to these corporate CEOs because they expend NO mental energy on such unimportant things.
Having said that, I'd like to point out that one company has produced a power supply design that in some ways is actually BETTER than the Green Plug standard: Kensington. Yes, that Kensington. They have a series of true variable-output DC power supplies which have a rather unique way of powering a wide range of different devices that require different voltages and current; I have one myself, a model 33197 (I actually have "last year's" model that uses a rather proprietary cable, but apparently this most recent one [kensington.com] uses a standard USB cable in the design. It has a five-pin DC output jack, to which a cable attaches that has a female plug on the other end; there is a series of "tips" which connect to the end of the cable, and it is these tips which actually determine both the physical attachment method to a device AND the voltage and current. There are tips available for virtually every laptop, cellphones, even one for my old HP iPAQ hx4700 (which is a REALLY weird one).
I believe the Kensington design works by the tips creating a feedback loop of some sort with the power supply proper, communicating through one or several of those pins precisely what voltage and current to supply. It strikes me as quite ingenious. I have no idea what specific mechanism this feedback loop employs, because I haven't yet reverse-engineered one of the tips to see what makes it tick.
So what Kensington has produced is a 3-24VDC, 6A, 120W variable output DC power supply that, with a proper tip, can power virtually any device that falls within its output specs. They have already anticipated the vast majority of common devices, and can easily produce others as the need arises. Of course I'd rather see the whole thing open sourced, but that again is the difference between altruism and harsh Darwinian reality. Regardless, I think what Kensington has created could very easily become a standard even superior to what Green Plug proposes.
The pursuit of profit is directly in opposition to the pursuit of innovation. That's a fact proven by: 1) Medical companies and Hospitals: No "financial" incentives to cure a person. Only symptom treatment matters. 2) Arms Manufacturers: The F-16s and F-15 require high ground maintenance to run. No incentive to produce single-shot planes with no frequent repairs and services. 3) TVs & PCs: shoddy manufacturing and no spares: forcing you to replace the entire unit. 4) Laser printers: No common refill packages
USB was around for years, but it didn't explode until Apple forced the issue with the iMac.
I'd say there are two reasons USB took off. The first is Intel. It started putting it on all it's chipsets which made it in most Wintel computers by default. I believe they also didn't charge licensing fees on their controller implementation so others could copy/improve it for free and not have to start from scratch. They just recently did the same thing with their USB3 controller.
The other thing is what it was competing again. There really wasn't that much other there. If you wanted low bandwidth, you'd either hijack the PS2 port or one of the serial ports. If you wanted high bandwidth you either had your own expansion card (tough), piggybacked on the printer port (often didn't work as pass though), or used SCSI (expensive). You couldn't have multiple parallel devices, so you'd need extra cards if you wanted to do that. If you had many serial devices (like a modem, a tablet, etc) you might need an extra serial card. It was a mess. USB just simplified everything, and the hub concept was a nice addition.
Intel forced availability before it became popular, and Intel made it a relatively cheap option. It was a huge improvement over the mishmash of old connectors for the consumer. Then Apple came along and made it mandatory forcing a huge number of devices on the market (where many weren't before since USB wasn't popular).
What? It had enjoyed steady increase in use. Apple went to it becasue more people were using USB then firewire, AND manufacturers where clearly moving towards USB for devices.
USB stuff was hard to find and expensive. There were some specialty stores on the internet that sold all USB stuff but at local computer stores USB stuff was here or there. Most people seemed to still use PS2 mice, modems were mostly serial, printers were mostly parallel, and so were most scanners.
Then Apple released the iMac.
Within a few months it became trivial to find USB peripherals. They started to have different price points (low, medium, and high end market segments for things like modems). USB mice were everywhere, USB video cameras showed up, things improved.
It was increasing in use, but it was no where near critical mass until Apple forced the issue. It was like SATA. Motherboards came with both (IDE and SATA) but IDE stuff was available for quite a long time after (especially in optical drives). I'm of the opinion that Apple took what was going to be a normal transition (things slowly speed up, pick up momentum, and eventually take over) and put it in hyper drive (made adoption look more exponential that it would have for probably a year or two, if not more).
From the various discussions that have shown up here on/. an in other places (like Ars Technica) it seems like there are a two reasons.
The main one, by far, is cost. USB is cheap to implement (economies of scale only make this worse). USB doesn't need nearly as much logic (being polling based, one master) where as FireWire has quite a bit (each device is a peer, supports DMA). Then there is the fact that no one made a free controller available (as far as I know) so you had to come up with your own. You ha
Sorry it's not USB -- it requires the proprietary Green Plug chip to work.
They are trying to sell their chip by having us push the manufacturers into making mass purchases of the chip ( or chip schematics) because we "demand it".
And they are trying to sell this "initiative" as a standard without releasing the chip schematics to a standards organization.
It's still a cool idea. It would be great if a group of large corporation just bought them opened the spec.
Oh, wait, since these slimeballs are trying to force everyone to use their chip under the guise of 'everyone wants it' and there goal is to get the public to browbeat these corporation so they can give the green plug people money, I hope the corporation find a way to do the same thing through a different design.
USB connectors (Score:4, Informative)
...will become a standard power connector with or without these clowns. It's just about perfect for powering and/or charging just about any handheld device, and with Apple leading the way I expect that USB connectors will start showing up in airplanes, cars, and other such places very soon.
Whatever genius MBA thought that manufacturers would gleefuly license some special connector/protocol just to be able to charge their own products should be taken out back and shot. The language on their web site is absurdly disingenuous in stating the the device-side stuff is free. What benefit is that to the device manufacturer? Do they expect major device manufacturers to promote their proprietary chargers out of the goodness of their heart? What a crock.
Re:USB connectors (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, I was in an airport recently, and there were power outlets with both AC and USB. The future is here.
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Re:Security risk (Score:4, Informative)
You could always modify a USB cable such that it only carries the ground and +5V lines.
If you think USB is scary for the host, check out Firewire's ability to automatically DMA into the host's address space: http://md.hudora.de/presentations/#firewire-pacsec [hudora.de]
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you think USB is scary for the host, check out Firewire's ability to automatically DMA into the host's address space.
I know about that. I once reported it as a Linux kernel bug, because the driver unconditionally turns that feature on. It's almost never used. The hardware has a bounds limit register for externally initiated read/write operations, and you can set that to 0. Amusingly, it's unconditionally set to allow access to the first 4GB under Linux, even for 64-bit systems.
But there are people
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually no they don't. Maybe for handheld devices but some devices really work a lot better with higher voltage. I am all for standardized power adapters but the USB port is far from prefect for every device.
Now why they can not standardize wall worts so you can not plug a 12V wall wart into a 5V device I will never no.
Re:USB connectors (Score:5, Informative)
They have actually, the EIAJ connectors which you are starting to see more often have standardized sizes, such that "If it fits, it will work.". You can recognize EIAJ plugs and sockets because they have a yellow plastic rim.
Between EIAJ for higher voltage/current, and USB for low voltage/current, I think we have the universal DC supply covered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIAJ_connector [wikipedia.org]
Though, I would love it if my laptop could be recharged via power over ethernet. Not quite enough power can be provided for todays laptops, but a netbook should be able to run off of it.
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USB is hopeless (Score:5, Informative)
USB is 5v. USB2.0 maxes out at "5" units of 100mA, with USB3.0 providing a staggering "6" units of 150mA. Thats .5A and .9A. That gives you 2.5 watts and 4.5 watts. There are proposed additions to let USB source up to 1.8A if the port is not sending data, and up to 1.5A in low speed mode.
Looking at the numbers, the whole notion that USB could ever become the dominant standard for power seems laughable to me. USB may be a convenient means of providing a trickle charge, but with batteries getting considerably higher C rates we need 10x beefier power supplies than what USB will ever be capable of.
Power Over Ethernet+ (PoE+) is targetting 24w: thats no quickcharge, but unlike USB its least enough to run a small computer.
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Re:USB is hopeless (Score:5, Informative)
You're talking about what a USB host is required to provide to a device... but your information is wrong. Or at least, incomplete. 100mA is the _minimum_ that a host must be prepared to supply before a negotiation can take place where it can then ask for up to 1 amp.
But again, that's just about what a PC is required to deliver per the specification. There is nothing to prevent, say, a cell phone maker from including their own charger that can deliver a couple amps more. As long as it's not going to put out more than 5V it's not going to hurt anything, and the device would still be able to charge just fine, albeit at a slower rate, from a standard port.
POE is a different story. At 48VDC it is designed to power things like security cameras and IP phones at distances of a couple hundred feet. It wouldn't be suitable for charging a cell phone because it would require more expensive (and less efficient) power supplies, and the RJ45 connector is not designed for rugged, repeated cycling consumer use.
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Re:USB is hopeless (Score:5, Interesting)
The spec does not support 1 amp. If you want to talk about manufacturers going off on their own to extend the spec in a proprietary fashion, I think you lose the usefulness of the standard USB interconnect. A good example is the Macbook Air cdrom, which works with nothing except the usb on the Macbook Air.
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Re:USB is hopeless (Score:5, Interesting)
No, what that says is that initial device current must be limited to 100mA (USB2) or 500mA (USB3) per port, that the current drain of bus-powered hubs must be limited to ((# of ports)*100mA)+100mA (which is why bus-powered hubs > 4 ports are rare), and that that is the minimum a root hub must be able to supply in order to conform with the specs.
According to the full spec, not just the FAQ version, devices are free to negotiate for up to 1A (USB2; dunno about USB3 but I'd guess it's higher), and it's up to the root hub to say "yay" or "nay".
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've got to add that using Apple as an example of leading the way to USB power is a bad joke for me, personally. I have the last gen MacBook Pro and bought an external hard drive for my local back-up. It turns out USB doesn't provide enough power via a single connector, so you have to use a USB A/B connector and splitter to plug it into two USB ports. Apple used to put both USB ports on the same side, but changed it with the previous generation - so now the awkward splitter on the A/B cable can't reach both
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually no, I have a PowerBook G4, it has two USB ports, and they are on different sides. Got the same problem with an external hard drive: It works with one plug on nearly all computers I have access to, but not on the Powerbook - here I need to use the splitter.
Re:USB is hopeless (Score:5, Insightful)
you do realize very few USB ports provide enough power for hard drives right? It isn't just apple but, dell, and HP too.
external flash drives will work. As they don't have motors which require power.
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Re:USB is hopeless, so use Firewire (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm sure this will bring up arguments to the contrary, but as a data transmitter, it's also superior to USB in supporting peer-to-peer device communication and multiple hosts per bus.
The old problem of higher per unit costs due to licensing fees has been resolved, as the fees have been discarded.
Does anyone know what the price difference is for basic Firewire vs. USB chips, connectors, and cables these days? That is, s
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In fact, USB has several issues : it is 5V while almost nothing works with 5V right now, which implies a conversion everywhere. But if we want to put converters everywhere, 5V is very low to start with, it'd be better to start with 18-19V like most notebook adapters. Also, the USB plug delivers low power which is often not enough to power a hard disk, reason why most USB/ATA adapters ship with a second wire to double the power input. Another problem with such a low voltage is that you cannot have a common r
Re:USB connectors (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:USB connectors (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly two of Apple's products have ever had a standard USB charging connector: the 512 meg 1st gen shuffle and the 1 gig 1st gen shuffle. All their other devices have some sort of proprietary thing. Their power bricks, at least, have USB "A" connectors, where applicable, which is better than some; but the notion that they are leading the charge to standardization is absurd.
Virtually all recent motorola phones have standard USB mini B connectors, as do loads of assorted mp3 players and whatnot, it isn't really a new thing.
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Re:USB connectors (Score:5, Informative)
Huh? All of Apple's portable devices charge over USB or, if it's an older iPod, a Firewire port. This has always been the case. You're looking at the wrong end of the equation. If there's a USB port on the wall, you can plug it in. The other end, on the device, is not the goal of the project, which is to standardize DC power sources to be universal. Plug the device into the USB port and get a charge. You still have to bring your own cords. The idea is to eliminate the pile of wall warts, so that all devices can plug into them. Apple's wall chargers are a near-perfect example of what the Universal Power Adapter hopes to achieve--plugs into the wall, accepts USB cables for charging, delivers 5V DC. On planes and in public spaces where this would make a difference, you'd always have to supply your own cables, so the device end is mostly irrelevant.
Using Motorola as a counterexample is a poor choice, since most Motorola phones won't charge over a standard USB cable unless it's recognized on the other end.
Moreover, no one is saying it's a new thing to charge over USB--it's been done since 1997. Lots of companies have provided the option, and I would tend to agree that claiming that Apple is "leading the way" is something of an overstatement, but not if you accept the underlying premise that those "assorted" mp3 players and scattered other portable devices lack the conspicuousness, weight, and influence of Apple. You seem to be rather wide of the mark, though.
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Re:USB connectors (Score:5, Interesting)
Example: my Motorola cell phone uses the standard mini-USB form factor for both charging and data transfer, but other brands of chargers(except those specifically designated for Motorola) with the same form factor will not work. My phone also cannot "talk to" my computer or even charge from my computer's USB without an extra kit(which is just a usb cable and a driver CD) I would have to buy. Until then, I'm going to hook my cable up to a sampling O-scope and reverse engineer that bitch
The USB connections themselves are only a form factor. As the summary stated, any manufacturer can do whatever the hell they want with it after that. The MBA's who came up with that idea should be shot, but they've still made their company lots of dough.
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Slow Website (Score:5, Funny)
Green Plug is now trying to drum up public outcry through a (slow) website
I'm sure posting a link on slashdot will make that website a lot faster. ;)
Re:Slow Website (Score:5, Funny)
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chicken (Score:3, Insightful)
Commodities destroy profits (Score:2, Informative)
Mini-USB is already in place (and works great) (Score:4, Insightful)
My blackberry, and bluetooth earpiece both charge off mini-usb. I've got a mini-USB to nintendo DS adapter (fits in the DS case nicely) and the only other mobile electronics I use are my electric shaver (stays in the bathroom) and iPod (charges in the FM broadcasting cradle in the car) during my drive to work. USB 3.0 is supposed to handle 1.5amps, or three times what it is designed to handle currently.
Just because the company has the name "green" in it doesn't mean it's automatically a substantially better idea than what already exists (mini-usb) and what is in the pipeline (USB 3.0).
Re: (Score:3)
My iPhone and Jawbone both charge off USB (in fact, you only get a USB cable with a wall adapter with both). Considering how easy mini USB steps up to regular USB, I'd say that things are nicely progressing without the need of this "Green" company. I would argue that most manufacturers that'd be willing to switch to USB chargers would most likely have the know-how to do it without going to a proprietary-standard-provider.
USB AA Batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
I use are my electric shaver (stays in the bathroom
Actually my electric razor does charge over USB. I use USB chargeable AA batteries in it. I got some as a promotional item but usbcell.com sell them online. I have to admit I was skeptical but these things really are brilliant.
Now if only they would start selling the AAA ones I would not need to buy replacement batteries for my headphones once a month.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Actually my electric razor does charge over USB.
My razor [flickr.com] charges over mini-donuts.
No reason to (Score:4, Insightful)
For just about all popular gadgets, it is very very easy to walk into almost any store and get a replacement or third party cable. About the only industry that I would see benefiting from this is laptops, a standard laptop connection cable (like desktops) would be a lifesaver some times.
Re:No reason to (Score:4, Interesting)
You might want to investigate the Kensington model K33197US power supply. It's a counter to your argument. I'd rather it be open source, but the thing is too ingenious and practical to ignore, regardless. The Kensington design is what the Green Plug should have been.
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Rip-off prices (Score:4, Insightful)
Damn! (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
110 volts * 15 amps = 1650 watts.
5 volts * 1.5 amps = 7.5 watts.
Looks to me more like you need 220 USB ports.
Re:Damn! (Score:4, Funny)
Looks to me more like you need 220 USB ports.
No problem. I'll just buy more hubs.
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Poor, poor Greenplug (Score:5, Insightful)
Who the hell is "Green Power"? (Score:4, Informative)
Pot and kettle (Score:5, Insightful)
I fail to see why replacing a myriad of proprietary solutions with a single proprietary solution is supposed to be a good thing.
I would just be happy if all manufacturers would put voltage and polarity indications on their products.
Homebraw solution (Score:4, Interesting)
Here is the maximum power requirements of everything that runs at 12V or 5V. During normal use, I will never max out everything, so I could probably get away with a 120VAC to 12VDC power supply and a PicoPSU [mini-box.com] or something similar.
8A @ 5V; 40 watts
5A @ 12V; 60 watts
Finding a replacement requires "tech savvy"? (Score:3, Interesting)
You mean like going on eBay, searching for "iPod power", and buying one for 6-10 bucks? If that's a challenge, are you even capable of operating the device?
Hokey (Score:5, Insightful)
From the web site: "Green Plug is the first developer of digital technology enabling real-time collaboration between electronic devices and their power sources..."
First class marketspeak, that is. Collaboration, you say, between electronic devices and power sources. In real time. Using digital technology. Do I need to worry about my devices and power sources becoming mutinous, then?
Or can I just stick with USB which seems to power almost every electronic device I carry around? I daresay I don't actually know WHERE the chargers that came with most of my devices are, since I just charge them all though USB. Green Plug has already lost its battle. The only hope they might have is to embrace and extend the USB standard.
How can we lack behind China? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"A democratic, earth-caring nation?" What country are you talking about, again?
Iran.
A noble goal, but.... (Score:3, Informative)
I don't think this can happen. There are actually economic disincentives for those in control of the manufacturers to adopt a standard like this. I applaud the altruism here, but it fails to "incentivize" the standardization for the manufacturers. Manufacturers - those in control of mass production - are not so much intent on realizing the full collective efficiency and savings of mass production as they are in twisting the whole process to benefit them and slightly disadvantage those who buy their product. They waste resources and labor on unnecessarily frequent redesign cycles and impose planned obsolescence and proprietary schemes, all in the name of disproportionate profit. The end result is a waste and perversion of the collective potential of mass production.
What Green Plug proposes makes PERFECT sense from an altruistic, socialistic, Big Picture perspective... which also means it makes absolutely NO sense to these corporate CEOs because they expend NO mental energy on such unimportant things.
Having said that, I'd like to point out that one company has produced a power supply design that in some ways is actually BETTER than the Green Plug standard: Kensington. Yes, that Kensington. They have a series of true variable-output DC power supplies which have a rather unique way of powering a wide range of different devices that require different voltages and current; I have one myself, a model 33197 (I actually have "last year's" model that uses a rather proprietary cable, but apparently this most recent one [kensington.com] uses a standard USB cable in the design. It has a five-pin DC output jack, to which a cable attaches that has a female plug on the other end; there is a series of "tips" which connect to the end of the cable, and it is these tips which actually determine both the physical attachment method to a device AND the voltage and current. There are tips available for virtually every laptop, cellphones, even one for my old HP iPAQ hx4700 (which is a REALLY weird one).
I believe the Kensington design works by the tips creating a feedback loop of some sort with the power supply proper, communicating through one or several of those pins precisely what voltage and current to supply. It strikes me as quite ingenious. I have no idea what specific mechanism this feedback loop employs, because I haven't yet reverse-engineered one of the tips to see what makes it tick.
So what Kensington has produced is a 3-24VDC, 6A, 120W variable output DC power supply that, with a proper tip, can power virtually any device that falls within its output specs. They have already anticipated the vast majority of common devices, and can easily produce others as the need arises. Of course I'd rather see the whole thing open sourced, but that again is the difference between altruism and harsh Darwinian reality. Regardless, I think what Kensington has created could very easily become a standard even superior to what Green Plug proposes.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The pursuit of profit is directly in opposition to the pursuit of innovation.
That's a fact proven by:
1) Medical companies and Hospitals: No "financial" incentives to cure a person. Only symptom treatment matters.
2) Arms Manufacturers: The F-16s and F-15 require high ground maintenance to run. No incentive to produce single-shot planes with no frequent repairs and services.
3) TVs & PCs: shoddy manufacturing and no spares: forcing you to replace the entire unit.
4) Laser printers: No common refill packages
Re:How did USB (in general) win its war? (Score:5, Insightful)
USB was around for years, but it didn't explode until Apple forced the issue with the iMac.
I'd say there are two reasons USB took off. The first is Intel. It started putting it on all it's chipsets which made it in most Wintel computers by default. I believe they also didn't charge licensing fees on their controller implementation so others could copy/improve it for free and not have to start from scratch. They just recently did the same thing with their USB3 controller.
The other thing is what it was competing again. There really wasn't that much other there. If you wanted low bandwidth, you'd either hijack the PS2 port or one of the serial ports. If you wanted high bandwidth you either had your own expansion card (tough), piggybacked on the printer port (often didn't work as pass though), or used SCSI (expensive). You couldn't have multiple parallel devices, so you'd need extra cards if you wanted to do that. If you had many serial devices (like a modem, a tablet, etc) you might need an extra serial card. It was a mess. USB just simplified everything, and the hub concept was a nice addition.
Intel forced availability before it became popular, and Intel made it a relatively cheap option. It was a huge improvement over the mishmash of old connectors for the consumer. Then Apple came along and made it mandatory forcing a huge number of devices on the market (where many weren't before since USB wasn't popular).
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Re:How did USB (in general) win its war? (Score:4, Insightful)
What? It had enjoyed steady increase in use. Apple went to it becasue more people were using USB then firewire, AND manufacturers where clearly moving towards USB for devices.
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Re:How did USB (in general) win its war? (Score:5, Interesting)
Here is what I remember:
USB stuff was hard to find and expensive. There were some specialty stores on the internet that sold all USB stuff but at local computer stores USB stuff was here or there. Most people seemed to still use PS2 mice, modems were mostly serial, printers were mostly parallel, and so were most scanners.
Then Apple released the iMac.
Within a few months it became trivial to find USB peripherals. They started to have different price points (low, medium, and high end market segments for things like modems). USB mice were everywhere, USB video cameras showed up, things improved.
It was increasing in use, but it was no where near critical mass until Apple forced the issue. It was like SATA. Motherboards came with both (IDE and SATA) but IDE stuff was available for quite a long time after (especially in optical drives). I'm of the opinion that Apple took what was going to be a normal transition (things slowly speed up, pick up momentum, and eventually take over) and put it in hyper drive (made adoption look more exponential that it would have for probably a year or two, if not more).
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why isn't it working for Firewire? I'm sure we'd all love to kill off USB in favor of Firewire.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
From the various discussions that have shown up here on /. an in other places (like Ars Technica) it seems like there are a two reasons.
The main one, by far, is cost. USB is cheap to implement (economies of scale only make this worse). USB doesn't need nearly as much logic (being polling based, one master) where as FireWire has quite a bit (each device is a peer, supports DMA). Then there is the fact that no one made a free controller available (as far as I know) so you had to come up with your own. You ha
It's the connector: it's not the protocol (Score:5, Informative)
They are trying to sell their chip by having us push the manufacturers into making mass purchases of the chip ( or chip schematics) because we "demand it".
And they are trying to sell this "initiative" as a standard without releasing the chip schematics to a standards organization.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's still a cool idea. It would be great if a group of large corporation just bought them opened the spec.
Oh, wait, since these slimeballs are trying to force everyone to use their chip under the guise of 'everyone wants it' and there goal is to get the public to browbeat these corporation so they can give the green plug people money, I hope the corporation find a way to do the same thing through a different design.