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Comments: 227 +-   Privacy Group Calls Google Latitude a Real 'Danger' on Friday February 06 2009, @07:58PM

Posted by Soulskill on Friday February 06 2009, @07:58PM
from the no-latitude-for-latitude dept.
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CWmike writes "Privacy International is calling Google's new mapping application an 'unnecessary danger' to users' security and privacy. The criticism follows the unveiling this week of Google Latitude, an upgrade to Google Maps that allows people to track the exact location of friends or family through their mobile devices. Google Latitude not only shows the location of friends, but it can also be used to contact them via SMS, Google Talk or Gmail. 'Many people will see Latitude as a cool product, but the reality is that Google has yet again failed to deliver strong privacy and security,' said Simon Davies, director of London-based Privacy International, in a statement. The group's chief concern is that Google Latitude lacks sufficient safeguards to keep someone from surreptitiously opting into the tracking feature on someone else's device."
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  • by QuantumG (50515) * <qg@biodome.org> on Friday February 06 2009, @08:05PM (#26760337) Homepage Journal

    It's a rule. Whenever a change in the status quo is suggested people immediately jump to the most negative conclusions.

    I remember, many years ago, my all knowing government banned "reverse lookup" electronic phone books, unless they had some restrictions in the code. Later, the products fells off the market as they were no longer useful. Before then, one could lookup the telephone number of their neighbor and give them a call if the "music" spewing out of their place at 3am was a bit loud. Now you just call the police or, gulp, go over there.

    • Ha, I just use their wireless network to open up word pad and type "TURN DOWN THE DAMN MUSIC" in 50 pt font.

      • Since nowadays the music is almost always a MP3, just produce a blue screen or kernel panic, and that'll quiet 'em down for a few hours, while Vista tries to boot back up.

          • by dotancohen (1015143) on Saturday February 07 2009, @07:14AM (#26763109) Homepage

            If its like the brand new Toshiba laptop I just purchased w/ Vista on it, just plug in a mouse.

            Bam, instant BSOD.

            When it happened to me, I was quite impressed as you can imagine.

            But that would require actually going to the neighbor's house in the first place. At that point you might as well just _ask_ them to turn down the music.

            My solution is Pantera. No matter what the neighbors are playing, Pantera is louder. "Fucking Hostile" is over in under three minutes, and by that time 12 other neighbors have already called the cops or taken up arms themselves.

            • My solution is Pantera. No matter what the neighbors are playing, Pantera is louder. "Fucking Hostile" is over in under three minutes, and by that time 12 other neighbors have already called the cops or taken up arms themselves.

              If you did that to me, I'd stop the music, join the torch-and-pitchfork mob and point them to your house.

              • That is why I have bullet proof glass and meter-thick walls, just in case you were wondering.

                •     Barrett Arms 50 cal Model 82A1 - Check
                      Ammonium Nitrate - Check
                      Diesel Fuel - Check
                      Detonator - Check
                      Iron pipe - Check
                      Glass bottle and rag - Check

                      I'm pretty sure it isn't a problem. :)

      • by Lumpy (12016) on Friday February 06 2009, @11:05PM (#26761533) Homepage

        I use my fiberglass handle 3" cable cutters, snip the conduit clean through right above the electric meter and the music will come down to acceptable levels. Warning, you will see really big sparks just before the fuses on the pole blow.

        P.S.: If you use the wrong type cutter, you will simply die a very horrible death.

        P.P.S: run fast afterwards and flip your main breaker to fake that you got hit as well. en flip it on saying it must have tripped your main when it happened.

    • by interkin3tic (1469267) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:14PM (#26760421)

      Not to mention that any group called "Privacy International" might have a somewhat unrealistic view of how much of a threat this is.

      Which is not to say they're wrong, just that often times interest groups like this overzealously reject things out of hand that they percieve to be a threat.

      • They're blowing it so far out of proportion that I'm going to go ahead and say they're wrong. People have the option of simply not using Latitude, not updating their location, etc. Crisis averted.
        • by Lumpy (12016) on Friday February 06 2009, @11:07PM (#26761551) Homepage

          Exactly. My wife and I and our friends use latitude. it's really easy to control your location.

          Also by default it does not use the gps so it's always about 2500 feet off from where you really are.

          Privacy international is simply trolling.

          • by mollymoo (202721) on Saturday February 07 2009, @11:03AM (#26764199) Journal

            Also by default it does not use the gps so it's always about 2500 feet off from where you really are.

            Hope you don't have WiFi. I tried Latitude, it was a few hundred metres out when I used it on my phone and just a few metres out when I used my GPS - exactly what you'd expect.

            What freaked me out was when I noticed it said it could work on my laptop. So I tried it. Equivalent accuracy to the GPS, with no GPS and no phone plugged in. WTF? Do they know where my IP address is? Hop in the car and start driving around - still within 20m everywhere I went in this city. Turn the WiFi off and it loses track. The only way that could work is if Google have mapped the physical location of every WiFi network and are using them to do the locating. I knew that was theoretically possible, but I didn't know Google had actually done it. For some reason, I found that slightly creepy.

            • by poptix@work (79063) on Saturday February 07 2009, @11:44AM (#26764497) Homepage

              | The only way that could work is if Google have mapped the physical location of every WiFi network and are using them to do the locating. I knew that was theoretically possible, but I didn't know Google had actually done it. For some reason, I found that slightly creepy.

              Actually, Google didn't do it. This company did: http://www.loki.com/ [loki.com]

              It's pretty interesting and useful. Personally I don't have an issue with a public company doing anything a government can do without you noticing, it brings those things into the light where people can say 'hey, if $company can track my cell phone/laptop via wifi access points, so can the government'. I personally think Google worked *very* hard to ensure that privacy concerns would be avoided with Latitude. When you start Google Maps it mentions latitude, your icon changes significantly, exiting Google Maps asks if you wish to continue sharing your location. You must enable sharing on a per-friend basis when adding them, and the default is NO (even on the selection box). It's also possible to share at different levels of accuracy, AND to set a location to be reported in case you don't want anyone to know you're "hiding".

            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              I'm not desensitized. I CONTROL IT. I turn it on and off and CONTROL WHO can see my location.

              Now take away that control, I'm writing an app and having it report fake locations to the app. I'll gladly screw with any company and system tracking me without my desire to.

              In fact I did that for GPS.. NEMA sentences are very well documented, we screwed with a Truck GPS tracking system making it report the truck in random GPS locations every 30 seconds. The truck was in the atlantic, canada, texas, californ

          • by interkin3tic (1469267) on Friday February 06 2009, @09:04PM (#26760793)

            i just served jury duty where the defendant was accused of using tracking devices and various technologies to be sure his daughter wouldn't talk about how she was being used as his sex slave.

            Obviously the tracking devices themselves were not the real problem there. Almost anything can be misused.

          • by brandorf (586083) <brandorf@brandorf.com> on Saturday February 07 2009, @08:29AM (#26763335) Homepage

            You missed the point entirely: someone else opts you in using your own phone without you knowing it. Think about that for a second. Ever leave your phone sitting out somewhere? "Simply not using Latitude" isn't an option if someone opts you in without knowing. Got it?

            If I was concerned about people snooping around on my phone, I would set it to lock, so it requites a password if you want to fuss with it. Pretty much all phones can do that.

    • by ShieldW0lf (601553) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:19PM (#26760469) Journal
      If the government agencies and large corporations already knew everything that Google Latitude reveals, and they do, then I didn't lose any privacy. Neither did any of you. You can't lose what you didn't have.

      What actually happened was, we just got brought into the loop. That's it, that's all.

      If you think this is a bad thing, then it's probably time to grow some integrity and tell your spouse about your affair...
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        If the government agencies and large corporations already knew everything that Google Latitude reveals, and they do, then I didn't lose any privacy.

        Your bank and government know your financial information. So by your logic, it'd be ok for everyone else to know it too. Especially in conjunction with your Google Lattitude information.

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          Right now I'm one broke mofo. I pity the fool that tries to steal my ID. Now you have all my financial information that is relevant. Go for it. One way to protect against ID theft is to be cause the ID thief more harm by using your ID.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        This is different, but only slightly...

        In my case, I have a wonderful GPS equipped blackberry, with the GPS disabled by the provider. {sigh}. My "location" is determined by the tower that I an connected to, and my signal strength.

        As I found out by dialing 911 because I needed an ambulance where I was (long story, not a happy ending), even though GPS was enabled for emergency services in the configuration, they had absolutely no idea where I was. There was too m

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          As I found out by dialing 911 because I needed an ambulance where I was (long story, not a happy ending), even though GPS was enabled for emergency services in the configuration, they had absolutely no idea where I was.

          I needed the RAC (British autombile club) a few days ago; I knew where I was, but they also told me that they could have found my location anyway since I called by mobile phone (and mine is ancient), all they needed (for legal reasons) was my permission.

      • If the government agencies and large corporations already knew everything that Google Latitude reveals, and they do, then I didn't lose any privacy. Neither did any of you. You can't lose what you didn't have.

        I don't care about the government knowing about my secret love affairs. I don't want my wife knowing, though.

            • by digitalchinky (650880) <dtchky@gmail.com> on Friday February 06 2009, @11:32PM (#26761665) Homepage

              The current breed of signals and communications intelligence is built upon systems that log and database a wide range of their inputs. Certainly one would assume emerging or custom protocols can take a while to hit the sights of middle management before they too are included whenever possible. However, where you are wrong is with the assumption that the government actually knows who you are based on either your voice, or any in or out of band signalling present. Mostly they can't know who you are, and have no real interest in knowing either.

              Signalling systems are complex at best for man (or woman) in the middle work, just reading through any of the spec sheets will make this pretty clear. Your bog standard GSM handset might send it's IMEI once upon a time when you first turned the phone on, but the network thereafter will assign it with a new identity on a regular basis. Unless you catch some of those initial bursts, it becomes a game of association between who you call, and what might be buried somewhere in the database. The mathematics of such things means that even with tons of terrabyte drives, resources are still finite and the depth of associations cannot extend too far before the system starts logging worthless crap.

              I guess my point is this: All wiretaps over the last 10 years (at the very least) are not necessarily 'real time' or targeted against any specific individual. The net is routinely cast far and wide. This is why 'retroactive permission / immunity' exists.

              When you understand the technology behind the scenes, it's only a very small leap to a broader appreciation for what the government may, or may not be doing behind your back. :-)

              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                it shows that the cell phone companies can track individuals

                it shows that the cell phone companies can track a cell phone, or else they need to come clean about the rectal probe and tracking device.

      • by QuantumG (50515) * <qg@biodome.org> on Friday February 06 2009, @09:14PM (#26760889) Homepage Journal

        So your solution to avoiding a slippery slope into a totalitarian state is to restrict individual liberty.

        Ya, that makes sense.

        Individuals should be free to choose if they want to broadcast their location to anyone, or only to their friends.. sometimes or all the time.. the location they choose or a GPS location or an approximation of their location from WiFi towers.. etc. It's the individual choice that matters, not the technology. If you want to stop the slippery slope, stop people who are against individual liberty, not technology.

  • Tell me again (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Shadow of Eternity (795165) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:05PM (#26760341)

    How someone knowing where I am is particularly dangerous for me if I'm not in the witness protection program? If they're going to do anything worse than a drive-by waterballoon then chances are they wouldn't bother with latitude and just WATCH ME.

    We've all said it before: obscurity is not security.

    • Re:Tell me again (Score:5, Insightful)

      by geekoid (135745) <dadinportlandNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Friday February 06 2009, @08:11PM (#26760387) Homepage Journal

      Security is about risk assement.
      obscurity can be security, just not your only security.

      For example, my car door is unlocked right now, can you break in to it? no, becasue it's whereabouts is current obscured from you.

    • Re:Tell me again (Score:5, Informative)

      by QuantumRiff (120817) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:51PM (#26760697)

      I played with it on my blackberry, its pretty cool. When I quit the Map App, it asks if I want to keep tracking on, or disable it. Also, you have to give people permission to see your location. I can't help but think of some handy uses for it, such as your meeting friends at the game, and don't know where in the crowded parking lot they are, or what bar their sitting in downtown, and your trying to join them. It would be a hell of alot faster than trying to talk someone all the way to my location.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        I ride a motorcycle with several friends in Northern Illinois. This will be extremely handy when we want to meet up.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Definately.

          I'm going racing with a friend, and we are on each other's lists, so I'll be able to see if he's on his way, or already there. The resolution is kind of rough, so it won't tell me if he's on the other side of the pits, but I can just call and ask.

          I told my friends, if I should go missing, I don't answer the phone, and I'm not showing somewhere I should be, that's a good place to start looking for me. Still, the resolution isn't great, but the police

          • Re:Tell me again (Score:4, Interesting)

            by TooMuchToDo (882796) on Friday February 06 2009, @11:38PM (#26761699)
            On my Blackberry Curve, I'm getting within 1500 meters accuracy (western suburbs of Chicago). Further west in rural areas, I get 3000 meters accuracy, and in downtown Chicago I get anywhere from 200-800 meters of accuracy. That's not horrible for AGPS, with no on-board GPS. I look forward to the API being opened up on this bad boy.
              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                So let me get this straight:

                Cell tower triangulation = cell tower triangulation

                AGPS = GPS with assist from network to get TTFF (time to first fix). (I hear that the TTFF goes from minutes to seconds with AGPS)

                GPS = Actual on-board GPS hardware

      • Re:Tell me again (Score:4, Insightful)

        by vux984 (928602) on Friday February 06 2009, @11:34PM (#26761669)

        I can't help but think of some handy uses for it, such as your meeting friends at the game, and don't know where in the crowded parking lot they are, or what bar their sitting in downtown, and your trying to join them.

        So send them an sms with your gps location embedded in it, they can pull it up in their map app, and walk right to you. Integrated it all slickly so its easy to use and auto-magical.

        You hardly need google tracking your every movement for any of this.

  • by the_humeister (922869) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:06PM (#26760345)

    But the people who would use this probably don't care about these things anyway. Or if they do, they'll turn off their phone.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      One of the cool features is that I can set my location manually. So if I want to tell someone I'm somewhere, but be somewhere else, it's entirely possible.
  • Frightening (Score:3, Interesting)

    by khellendros1984 (792761) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:10PM (#26760377) Journal
    I'm hoping that this is some sort of software that you'd install on the device (an app for iPhone, a java applet for most other things, etc). What other method does Google have to get the information? I'm assuming that the Latitude server is talking to some software on the device that can retrieve the relevant location data. I can see people writing modified versions of the Google software that *hides* and can be used as a covert tracking device, without the bother of contacting the person's cell provider. Frankly, the whole thing bothers me too, and not just in that theoretical kind of way that DRM does...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 06 2009, @08:11PM (#26760397)
    Hold on, I'm working on tin foil case for my cell phone!
  • And I was quite concerned too.

    See, it isn't like Google is tracking people by asking the phone company to track your phone. They are just tracking people by giving them an app to run on the phone that reports its location periodically.

    So given that you have to install an app on any phone that is to be tracked, it's unlikely someone could trick Google into tracking your phone. At least, not unless they have access to your phone to install the app.

    • I don't want to be tracked, not by Google, not by the Government, not by my spouse, not by my work. It is a violation of my existence. (Little v not capital V.) I don't want it. And, I don't want to have to explain to any of the above, in 15 or 30 years, why I am not SUBVERSIVE because I don't want to be tracked.

      Oh, and I am a boring person. Anyone that knows me pretty much knows where I am at any moment. So realistically, it doesn't matter.

      I just don't want to be tracked.

  • Surreptitious? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by egcagrac0 (1410377) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:14PM (#26760425)

    If you're concerned about people doing things on your X, don't let them use your X.

    Where X is:

    • Computer
    • Mobile Phone
    • Landline
    • Network
    • Private Key
    • Car
    • Bedsheets
    • Underwear
    • Camera
    • Sofa
    • Hot Tub

    Pretty basic trust issues here, folks. If you don't trust someone, don't let them use your stuff.

  • Danger! Danger! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pushing-robot (1037830) on Friday February 06 2009, @08:15PM (#26760429)

    If I understand TFA correctly, if someone else gains access to your phone and your google login, they can activate Latitude and use it to track you.

    Their interpretation of that is: Latitude is dangerous. I'd interpret it as giving others access to your hardware and your account is dangerous.

    But that's why I'm just a computer geek and they're a multi-national organization.

    • Re:Danger! Danger! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Chyeld (713439) <chyeld@NospAm.newsguy.com> on Friday February 06 2009, @08:27PM (#26760519)

      I too think they are three marbles short. But I think the idea they are attempting to get across is less, "if we can get access to your phone, we can pwnt you." as it is "we think Google's made it so people other than those you've authorized can snoop that data once you've made it avaliable."

      Not quite as hairbrained, but still rather "Get off my lawn"-ish given this group hasn't provided a wit of evidence that something like that can happen.

    • by SvnLyrBrto (62138) on Friday February 06 2009, @09:25PM (#26760971)

      So far as I can tell, Latitude is no different from Buddy Beacon, Loopt, Whrrl, or any of a dozen other GPS-enabled "social networking" apps that'll happily send out your location to whomever you allow. But Latitude, specifically, and apparently only Latitude, is evil and dangerous.

      I know hating on Google is the trendy thing these days, but come on.

      cya,
      john

  • by John Hasler (414242) on Friday February 06 2009, @09:04PM (#26760787)
    Mash

    "Recently announced Google Earth version 5.0 adds interesting new features like images of ocean floors and some detailed images of Mars."

    up with

    "...an upgrade to Google Maps that allows people to track the exact location of friends or family through their mobile devices."

    plus a little hacking and amaze your friends and family as you wander along the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

  • kiddy track (Score:3, Funny)

    by timmarhy (659436) on Friday February 06 2009, @09:18PM (#26760933)
    think of the children?
  • by spire3661 (1038968) on Saturday February 07 2009, @04:20AM (#26762615)
    Im getting really sick and tired of SMS becoming a requirement to operate. I DO NOT like the fact that either I get charged for incoming texts, or pay a blanket monthly fee. INCOMING TEXT SHOULD BE FREE, or at least allow me to comfirm/deny. As it is now I have SMS completely turned off.
/earth is 98% full ... please delete anyone you can.