Researchers Warn of Possible BitTorrent Meltdown 294
secmartin writes "Researchers at Delft University warn that large parts of the BitTorrent network might collapse if The Pirate Bay is forced to shut down. A large part of the available torrents use The Pirate Bay as tracker, and other available trackers will probably be overloaded if all traffic is shifted there. TPB is currently using eight servers for their trackers. According to the researchers, even trackerless torrents using the DHT protocol will face problems: 'One bug in a DHT sorting routine ensures that it can only "stumble upon success", meaning torrent downloads will not start in seconds or minutes if Pirate Bay goes down in flames.'"
The market will find a way (Score:3, Insightful)
Might force more people to 'member-only' or subscription sites, for a short time, is all.
Meanwhile, isohunt (among others) is going strong.
Finally, could also push more people into IRC, which I'm sure the MAAFIA would just adore.
Re: (Score:2)
Thats an index >.
The problem is that so many torrents rely on piratebay as a tracker.
Piratebay tracks a large portion of torrents and just like when the mininova index went down, all other trackers and possibly even indexes will collapse under pressure.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thats an index >.
Aware of that - but check out the trackers on isohunt; plenty of options other than Piratebay. If it goes down, people will use the alternatives, simple as that.
How long did it take to recover from mininova? Not long...
Re:The market will find a way (Score:5, Informative)
>>>How long did it take to recover from mininova? Not long...
Or Demonoid? Or niteshdw.com? When those went down, my torrent program immediately switched to dht: and was able to build a database of ~500,000 users. I continued downloading and seeding demonoid/niteshdw torrents for MONTHS.
There were only two demonoid torrents which failed to complete with dht:, so I used isohunt to find a backup tracker, and switched to that. The second torrent had no backup tracker, so I uploaded the file to torrentstorm and within days it was alive again.
Eventually I was able to complete downloading everything, despite RIAA's shutting down the trackers.
Re:The market will find a way (Score:5, Informative)
Nothing wrong with the protocol. That's like saying there was something 'wrong' with IP if all the DNS servers were nuked...
Re: (Score:2)
- Shadow
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Finally, a simple, permanent solution to the piracy problem.
Nothing to see here, move along...
Tag this FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
The internet is resilient, and someone somewhere will pick up the slack that could be left by TPB going down. There's enough trackers out there to lend a hand.
Solution? Support The Pirate Bay. Don't download? Support them anyway for the things they do to battle the MAFIAA and other evils.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. BT filled in the void left after suprnova.org [wikipedia.org] shut down.
Re: (Score:2)
s/BT/The Pirate Bay
Re: (Score:2)
i think only the US buys that crap that it's impossible to build out any decent broadband, backbone and servers to handle it. We can, we have and there's nothing stopping us. Give it a few decades and 100Mbit+ connections will be commonplace.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The Pirate Bay - Too big to fail, government bailout proposed!
Re:Tag this FUD (Score:5, Informative)
you just violated the most important rule of usenet -_-
Rule 1 of usenet: Don't ever talk about usenet.
Re:Tag this FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Tag this FUD (Score:4, Insightful)
Because all that traffic is now being divert onto the Internet at large via commercial usenet services and bittorrent. Having it local to the ISP means their network usage stays local to their own infrastructure.
Re: (Score:2)
And you perpetuated the violation!
Call it tenesu or something. However, I think tenesu is a different mindset/paradigm. Want something, better get it fast or it will be gone in a month or so. But I've picked up things from torrents years after they came out.
Bit Torrent has recovered before (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Bit Torrent has recovered before (Score:5, Funny)
Did you just say "bull"? That's no kind of language for a distinguished web forum like Slashdot! You wash your mouth out with soap, young man!
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
I wouldn't worry about it: we've used the word "Belgium" on this distinguished web forum on many occasions.
Re: (Score:2)
If I was a policy maker and knew of a communications network that was this easy to setup and this hard to disrupt and shutdown, I'd want to ensure it stayed around, especially when times are less
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
What ever happened to decentralized trackers ? I remember reading something about the TPB guys working on the next big thing, shortly after the dirty cops confiscated their servers a few years back.
I think the bittorrent system has reached a point where enough people are involved that a shared, decentralized system could be made to work reliably. Something like taking the existing setup of web forum, tracker and membership database, and prop it up on top of a P2P overlay network generously supplied by sit
Re:Bit Torrent has recovered before (Score:5, Informative)
Which part of "nor did it operate any BitTorrent trackers" do you not comprehend in (from your wikipedia link):
"Suprnova did not host any of the shared files, nor did it operate any BitTorrent trackers for long. It offered the ".torrent" meta files which would tell a BitTorrent client where it could find the BitTorrent tracker."
Re:Bit Torrent has recovered before (Score:5, Informative)
Within a week? I wouldn't expect to wait that long.
Probably won't happen.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
so even if they are all found guilty, it would be outside their ability to shut it down, even if ordered to do so by a court.
You can damned well guarantee that a jail term for failure to comply will suddenly make it possible. I doubt there's many torrent tracker site owners and admins willing to serve jailtime for it.
Re: (Score:2)
You can damned well guarantee that a jail term for failure to comply will suddenly make it possible. I doubt there's many torrent tracker site owners and admins willing to serve jailtime for it.
If they do have some control, then they can use it and avoid jail; if they truly don't, is "failing to shut down a server you don't own" a crime? Your scenario only makes sense if it can be proved that they have control, and even after proof being found, they refuse to do it~
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/1476548/Swedens-jail-reforms-are-put-on-hold.html [telegraph.co.uk]
Quote: Almost as soon as he was caught, Saddam Hussein, the former Iraqi president, asked to be allowed to serve out his time awaiting trial in a Swedish jail. "Prisons in Sweden seem to be more comfortable than in other places,"
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
This is GREAT for bittorrent (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is GREAT for bittorrent (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with ratio requirement sites is if you download content "later" (e.g. not in the first day of release), it is sometimes impossible to keep a good ratio no matter how much you try to seed since no one is downloading.
As an example, at one ratio site they had 8 torrents that I was able to get from other sources and one that I wanted. Even after 2-3 days of seeding those 8 torrents, I didn't have enough credits to fully download a single torrent without going negative. Yes, I left it seeding constantly, but most of the time it was all seeders and no leechers.
To be honest, I've never had speed problems for most content from non-ratio-enforcing sites. I've found ratio-enforcing sites to be a major hassle. YES my ratio is well above 1:1 for public content as I don't believe in leeching, but it's actually really difficult to maintain one's ratio on a ratio-enforcing site because you frequently run into a "lots of seeders and no leechers" scenario.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
One way I do it is to download a popular torrent and seed that, even if I don't care what it is. Leave that up over night and my ratio comes back towards 1:1.
Re: (Score:2)
I've encountered this as well. I more or less worked around it by seeding other more popular torrents from the same site to ratios of say 3 or 4 to make up for it...but I do remember at first leaving many of them in my list for weeks only to pick up maybe 10%.
Re: (Score:2)
Have no problem keeping a good ratio. My 1930 copy of Monte Cristo was uploading at almost 20k/sec just last night.
No idea why it is so popular. But 700mb has generated 7gb of ratio.
Re: (Score:2)
I've found it to be highly dependent on the file. You can't grab any file and expect it to work. It has to be a popular file and I find that large files help. If the file is to small the file can be completed before the client ever asks you.
Newness has nothing to do with the file. I'm still seeding a file I downloaded over a year ago. It's 26 GB and there are always 2-6 people downloading it.
Also remember uploads while you yet to have a complete file also count toward ratio even though I've had some bt
Re: (Score:2)
but most of the time it was all seeders and no leechers.
Wow, life's a bitch.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I've had no problems finding relatively old content on public trackers, long after most people stop seeding them on private trackers because they're no longer able to get any credit for them.
Re: (Score:2)
That actually sounds like a nice setup.
I do remember that an old version of tvtorrents.com gave something like 1.5x credit for seeding a completed file - That version worked well.
It went down for a year or two and when it came back, it had a strict 1:1 ratio enforcement and it was next to impossible to establish credits. Also I frequently would not receive credit for seeding.
Re:This is GREAT for bittorrent (Score:5, Funny)
I got invited to a private tracker the other day that expected everyone to keep a ratio of over 1:1.
It's nice to know some sites are so far up their own arse that they forget quite how bit-torrent works and fail at basic maths.
Re:This is GREAT for bittorrent (Score:4, Funny)
Nah, they just figure if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.
Re: (Score:2)
If this isn't how it works then why doesn't it work this way?
Re: (Score:2)
Because that just shifts the problem to a second client... You can run a second one yourself and report fake upload amounts. Or even run it on the same network and report -real- upload amounts between each client.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
sssssh! (Score:5, Funny)
Whenever Pirate Bay goes down, let's everyone agree that bittorrent is dead. Say it very loudly when around RIAA types and look morose, say it looks like we're going to have to pay top dollar for entertainment, pantomime getting out your wallets. And for xod's sake, don't mention any of the other torrent sites. *wink*
Re:sssssh! (Score:5, Funny)
WHAT other torrent sites? Sheesh you make it sound like there ARE other torrent sites. Didn't you read the summary? The Pirate Bay goes down, and bit torrent goes down. There ARE no "other" sites.
Did I sound convincing?
Re:sssssh! (Score:5, Funny)
Did I sound convincing?
No but the public has been desensitized enough by bad acting they're used to seeing in MPAA movies that they'll believe it.
Re:sssssh! (Score:5, Funny)
Did I sound convincing?
No but the public has been desensitized enough by bad acting they're used to seeing in MPAA movies that they'll believe it.
Whoa!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Won't work. They have years of first-hand experience with lying. :P
If they kill piratebay (Score:4, Interesting)
the best option is a web of trust plus p2p application. This p2p would be used only to distribute tracker locations and or edonkey links, not the actual content. This way you would need no centralized web servers. Webservers are too easy a target for the MAFIAA.
With this an something like the kad protocol we would have truly distributed content distribution. Not only the files, but the urls for the files.
Re: (Score:2)
Or, you know, another 2-3 torrent sites will appear to fill the void within 7-10 days, and the circle of life continues.
The problem with the oft-proposed solutions of distributed trackers or trust-based sharing is that in addition to making it more difficult for the media empires, it does the same for regular people.
The *AA are gaining assets and funding all the time, and any attempt to make it more difficult for them to infiltrate a segment of the sharing community is far more likely to present a problem f
Great article! (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: missing a zero, I hope? (Score:4, Funny)
You're missing a zero in that ratio, I hope? That ratio is an order of magnitude off from BitTorrent sainthood.
Not difficult to see the bias here... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not difficult to see the bias here... (Score:4)
He's right, of course. The bias here is ridiculously obvious.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't matter. (Score:5, Interesting)
Shut it down. It won't make any difference.
It will force coders to create a better system.
It will promote the use of another protocol/network that is immune to particular traits of law/jurisdiction that The Pirate Bay may fall foul of.
In the meantime, hundreds of pretenders will show up to take the flak and the sheer volume means that all that can be done is trying to shut them down one at a time with legal threats.
Just look at the history of ANY P2P system and it's pretty much identical.
Give it a few more years, the Internet will be nothing but the basis of a global, anonymous, reliable, authenticatable P2P system that everybody uses to do everything. We have the technology (Tor, CloudVPN, Bittorrent, DHT, etc.), it's just a matter of fine-tuning and prevelance. As an additional bonus, it then won't matter that some people are using IPv6 and some IPv4 - everything will be in this cloud of dark smoke that you can only see what enters and leaves and nothing inbetween. You'll be able to tell that User X shared an MP3 if you are able to see all of User X's traffic. You'll be able to see that User Y downloaded an MP3 if you are able to see all of User Y's traffic. But even compromising User X completely won't reveal to you who User Y is or was. Trying to masquerade as User X without their private key would be useless, so the best you could do (even with the key) would be to propogate false content to... who? Nobody would know - everything is just an anonymous connection from a dozen random peers.
The media companies and governments are, by a process of digital evolution, driving anonymous communications into necessities and they become more prevelant with each generation. Hardly anybody warezed back in the 90's as a percentage of Internet users - now most ordinary people know how to find and download illegal content in a few clicks. Each time the problem of "piracy" is "fixed", it crops up yet again, somewhere else, in a new form that's more convenient, faster, harder to prove and more ubiquitous.
Even in terms of general users - the only things that people ever ask me about when the subject comes up are "something like Napster or something". They've never used Napster but the fame of being shut down was enough to make them into a household name for free/illegal content. Do it to The Pirate Bay (whose name I'm already getting mentioned in conversations from people who I thought couldn't work a mouse) and the same will happen.
It doesn't mean that they *shouldn't* be shutting down The Pirate Bay, or that The Pirate Bay are somehow "right" or "heroes". They have taken advantage of an interesting legal technicality. It just means that you're not going to win with the sorts of tactics where you just try and shut the sites down. Maybe the opportunity for the media companies EVER winning has now passed and they'll never be able to anymore - who knows? But they are trying to catch fog in a net... this isn't a problem they can solve by shutting down a server - they need something else. I don't know what. They certainly don't. But until it exists, they are playing a losing game.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If what you say comes true, they will tax the internet heavily (forget that it is unfair to the highest degree, since the internet is a bundle of distilled goodness which helps everyone by making the entire mass of Human culture available to everyone, everywhere, at a nominal cost). This is when the real game will begin: hijacking internet connections and using them for free. Hey, I'll be there.
Re: (Score:2)
>> Maybe the opportunity for the media companies EVER winning has now passed and they'll never be able to anymore - who knows?
What's online for free..
TOS Star Trek
Battle Star Galactica
Heroes
Lost
Burn Notice
Chuck
Just off the top of my head. Pretty sure many others are these days.
With a flash capture tool, you can keep them.
I was very happy to find AOL offering high quality versions of all the old MTV Videos (including HOOK!!!) online. I played them all and now i have them all on my hard drives and som
BitTorrent is not a Network (Score:5, Informative)
There is no such thing as "the BitTorrent network". That's like talking about "the HTTP network". It's a distributed download protocol. It doesn't do search and different trackers and torrents are not interconnected in any way. Thus, it is not a network. The ability to use BitTorrent will not be harmed in any way by any one site going down.
Remember when everyone used suprnova and then it went away? The world of BitTorrent will be fine.
Back to school for you, son (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:BitTorrent is not a Network (Score:5, Funny)
But computers can form a network using http, its called the Internet.
Did you really just say that?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
i hope it gets fixed soon (Score:2)
Doubtful. (Score:2)
Traffic will only flow to other trackers automatically if torrent files have multiple trackers listed, which isn't all too common. A vast proportion of TPB users are random college kid types with little tech knowledge, and would not know how to find alternative trackers.
Additionally, there are dozens of small private/invite trackers which would not be affected as they have limited membership. Generally, these researchers have their heads up their asses.
Demonoid ftw.
Anybody here remember Napster? (Score:4, Interesting)
Never mind that the Napster name survived and came back as another DRM'ed monstrosity. We still have the Gnutella protocol, free and unencumbered (poisoned, but we tech types can deal with that, eh?).
If TPB goes under (like SuperNova - can you say "mininova"?), there'll be plenty of other site operators ready to take advantage of their country's laws to make money from the opportunity this would represent. Trust me - even if TPB is forced to shut down (a questionable liklihood), there'll be plenty of others coming behind to pick up the profitable pieces left behind.
Data occupies space, has mass, exerts gravity. Even physically turning off TPB's servers won't make that data go away. Even if you nuke the servers holding the data and wipe all the hard drives, the data still exists (scattered about on the internet in some form or another). It'll be found (rediscovered) and used.
This is just another example of the existing media cartels (MPAA, RIAA, et. al.) trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle. They obviously haven't learned from their past experience with Gnutella just how difficult rebottling the jinn can be.
High Time (Score:2, Redundant)
It's the right time to develop torrent protocols that are multi source and multinational in such a way that individual governments can do nothing to disrupt them. We also need to protect those less able at computing by using untraceable ISPs and encrypted methods of delivery such that no accusation of infringement can be made.
So it's a call to white hats, black hats, gray hats and people who just love freedom to get busy, write the code and get it into the hands of
8 servers (Score:5, Funny)
Why should The Pirate Bay be shut down? (Score:5, Interesting)
They have redundant servers spread all over the world, some of them in server halls at ISPs that will not allow the police to just enter and shut them down. They also have several servers that are not active now, but which could be activated if need be.
Add to this that the last time they tried to shut them down, they recieved donations of new servers, money, server hall space and fast internet connections from both ordinary people and companies, emerging stronger than before and was running within three days. Now, they are prepared, and the same pattern will happen again. If attempts are made to shut them down, they will get more support and emerge stronger.
I can even tell you how the trial will go:
* They will be found guilty in the first trial, as the judge and "nÃmndemÃn" (not a jury, but an advisory group of "trustworthy people") are politically appointed, and will get orders from their parties to convict.
* They will appeal. The next court is not politically appointed, so it will instead look at the law. Swedish law allows linking to possibly illegal content, and there are precendents showing that such an interpretation holds up in court. In other words, they will be found not guilty. This is also in line with tradition, as everyone accused of file sharing who have appealed to this court has been found not guilty.
* The public attourney may appeal, and once again get his butt spanked. It's not entirely sure that he will do this, though, as this court has the power to set precedents. Another file sharer have been paid large sums of money by the media industry to not appeal, as they do not want to lose here.
* The case will go to the European court, which, at least on paper, should test if the Swedish courts have followed Swedish law. If it does it's job, they will once again be found not guilty.
Also, don't forget that these guys are activists, they will not back away from a fight. I wouldn't be surprised if they were to appeal even if they won in the first trial, just to make sure that they won in a court high enough to set a precedent.
Worth noting is that there are strong evidence of taking bribes against Jim Keyzer, the corrupt police who headed the investigation. Roswall, the public attourney, similarly is also suspected of various kinds of corruption and breaches of protocol. BodstrÃm, the minister of justice who initiated this spectacle broke three out of our four constitutions in order to make this happen, and this will also taint the case.
My name is Legion, for we are many. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Argh. WTF. UI Design Fail.
Disable the beta index. It's beta for a reason.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Uncheck the box, and you can return to non-beta bliss!
Re: (Score:2)
You are required to be authenticated. So much for anonymous readers.
Fantastic! Now the 4chan'ers can stay in 4chan, and maybe Slashdot will regain some of its quality user base.
Re: (Score:2)
Fantastic! Now the 4chan'ers can stay in 4chan, and maybe Slashdot will regain some of its quality user base.
You can still post anonymously by checking the "Post Anonymously" while logged in.
Re: (Score:2)
Then use the RSS feed like any 'sane' person. All 'modern' browsers, and IE7, have integrated RSS feed readers, so you shouldn't complain.
Re: (Score:2)
Not everyone who knows how to use RSS prefers to use RSS.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I am logged in, I still see that firehose crap. They're not just alienating new users, I'm getting sick of this crap too. I don't even let slashdot.org run scripts anymore. It stalls firefox, and doesn't provide any desirable functionality. Once upon a time Slashdot had the best forum software around. Now, it's the worst.
Re:UI Design Fail. (Score:5, Insightful)
Slashdot has really made me learn to hate CSS. (or bad CSS programmers)
Simple Design + Low Bandwidth + No Icons + No Boxes + Large Browser Font
and I still
get a narrow
story column
and a ton of
wasted
whitespace.
Re:UI Design Fail. (Score:5, Funny)
I still get a narrow story column and a ton of wasted whitespace.
Well if they used it, it wouldn't be whitespace, now would it?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Before long, the site will become so laden down with useless cruft, it will slashdot itself.
Slashdot has already slashdotted itself. [slashdot.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah no kidding. I noticed a week ago that it now requires me to login in order to view the "Moderation Comment Log".
Re: (Score:2)
It's part of a long term experiment.
And yes, as long as I've been a member they have done something to make it worse.
Some of the experiments they have tried have been really hideous.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
It is extremely annoying because I can't read articles at-a-glance anymore. I only click on articles for the comments and I only read comments and write comments if I'm heavily interested in this story.
Re:So What? (Score:4, Insightful)
Learn to use RSS already.
Re:Is it me. (Score:4, Informative)
Go to Preferences > Index and disable Beta Index (should be the first checkbox). I've had mine disabled for a long time and I never see any significant changes to the UI I know and love.
Idle is still green though :P
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank you! /. is now usable for the first time in months!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The laws of Sweden still apply to some extent (Score:5, Funny)
in my defense I would like to point out that:
1. I am wardriving this through a poorly encrypted WiFi connection that some guy or girl put up in their apartment.
I wonder if it's like my open wifi connection. I'm quite happy for people to come onto mine so I can have a damned good look through their computers. Depending on how bad I'm feeling, they might go away with an unexpected present...
Re: (Score:2)
Anything you can do to secure the nodes on your LAN, an attacker can do better. I doubt you're running all (any?) of your PCs from a LiveCD, with 0 personal data on them. I doubt (though it might be possible) that you're running any sort of IDS, constantly looking for (and paying attention to any alerts regarding) ARP poisioning, or brute forcing, or the status any of the potentially vulnerable ports which are fully accessible inside your "trusted zone". Maybe you are doing all of the above, but probably
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Are you sure? Flagfox says the IPs are swedish.
They did have backups in other countries the last time they were shut down though.
Re: (Score:2)
having PirateBay go away will have no effect on the legitimate torrents
Legal torrent files are occasionally available on TPB; Linux ISOs for example. Granted, a vast majority of the content on that site is being shared against the wishes of the copyright holders.