Facebook Reverts ToS Change After User Uproar 260
rarel writes "CNN and other media outlets report that Facebook reverted their TOS update and went back to using the previous one. 'The site posted a brief message on users' home pages that said it was returning to its previous "Terms of Use" policy "while we resolve the issues that people have raised."' Facebook's controversial changes to its Terms of Service, previously commented on Slashdot, included a mention that (users) 'may remove (their) User Content from the Site at any time. ... However, (they) acknowledge that the Company may retain archived copies of (their) User Content,' triggering a massive uproar from users and privacy groups."
Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:5, Insightful)
They'll probably just wait for the fuss to die down, reword it a bit, and try again. Outrage fatigue sets in quickly, as do acceptance, rationalization, and even embrace of the status quo.
"Remember Facebook" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:5, Insightful)
Never underestimate the ignorance of many lawyer types. That's why you often get TOS and such that are so bad - lawyers, not having to fight against the other side's lawyers, tend to write things in their own favor, using simple, broad, ultimately overreaching terms. Still in legalize, of course, so you need a lawyer to understand the suckers.
Re:As if the terms weren't draconian enough... (Score:3, Insightful)
So you're saying you don't want them to have backups of their systems?
Not being a facebook user I would find it amusing if a meteor took out their data center today and the site can't be restored on account of the ToS not allowing them to keep backups.
As in many cases with updated contracts (not even sure a ToS counts as a real contract), this is mostly just the paper being adjusted to reflect reality.
Re:As if the terms weren't draconian enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect that keeping your content indefinitely is what already happens, and they were merely trying to update the TOS to reflect reality. And besides, if you delete stuff from there, how are you ever going to know if all the copies have gone from their computers? And are you expecting them to go through all of their old backup tapes and delete your data?
It's also important to remember that Facebook is a hugely popular website that makes no money whatsoever. Their basic business model is to sell your privacy and give you in return the website. They haven't worked out how to do it yet, so you can expect more stuff you don't like from Facebook at some point in the future.
National attention (Score:3, Insightful)
Facebook had to do some damage control once the national media decided to make a story about it. There was a CNN story yesterday morning warning Facebook users about what the new terms of service meant and what it means to any content they put up on their profiles. I tried searching on youtube but couldn't find a video, unfortunately.
Big deal about nothing? (Score:3, Insightful)
So, Facebook changes its TOS to be clear that it might still have backups of your data around for a while, and people get MAD?!
"No Facebook, I want you to set it up so if you crash, that's it, all my data is gone for good! That'll teach me!"
Yeah, it didn't say that specifically, but neither, according to TFA, did they explicitly claim ownership.
Re:"Remember Facebook" (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, if you simply left, they kept all your content, if you wanted to delete your account, you need to log in to do so, thus accepting the new TOS, allowing them to keep all your content, I thought one of the conditions for a binding contract was that is was under no duress, and this clause appear to be inescapable.
No one seems to get this... (Score:5, Insightful)
I posted this last time, it seems that no one seems to understand that their ToS change is quite standard.
With respect to text or data entered into and stored by publicly-accessible site features such as forums, comments and bug trackers ("SourceForge Public Content"), the submitting user retains ownership of such SourceForge Public Content; with respect to publicly-available statistical content which is generated by the site to monitor and display content activity, such content is owned by SourceForge. In each such case, the submitting user grants SourceForge the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed , all subject to the terms of any applicable license.
Why the knee jerk reaction to facebook having the same policies as slashdot? If you delete your slashdot account, what do you think happens to all of your archived comments?
Re:humanity makes no sense. (Score:3, Insightful)
Why don't you lead?
Re:humanity makes no sense. (Score:5, Insightful)
Think for a moment about the institution you're talking about: something deep-rooted for centuries, penetrating every aspect of western life.
Now think about Facebook. Not even a decade old, and easily replaced.
Which do you think is easier to change with less uproar? Don't magnify the response on Facebook out of proportions: you don't see congressional hearings, massive politicizing, years of debate, marches in front of mansions, and constant media coverage on this admittedly very minor issue.
In other words, the uproar over the banking industry IS THERE. The uproar over the housing crisis IS THERE. The uproar over the fundamentals of the American economy IS THERE. You're not addressing the sheeple you imagine.
You're grandstanding, and it shows, and it doesn't become you.
Re:No one seems to get this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Because Slashdot and Facebook have different purposes. For instance, I use my real name on Facebook and have photographs and lists of friends.
It would take some effort to find my real name from my Slashdot user ID (not impossible though), and there's only 2 people who's /. ID I know.
Re:No one seems to get this... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not likely to post a work of art on slashdot and intend to sell it later.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:3, Insightful)
But that was still a solid week of wasted time that I'll never get back.
You got paid....not really wasted time....for you anyway.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:huhu (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to maintain privacy, keep your life private. That's not rocket science. If you put anything personal online on public sites, obviously people are going to *gasp* know personal things about you. It's no different than standing on a street corner yelling about your sex life. If you don't want people to know, don't fucking tell them.
I fail to see how this really relates to the issue at hand though. None of what you say would be any better protected with the old TOS than this new one. What you're talking about occurs when you put stuff on your page, not when you delete it. True, the new TOS is bollocks in that Facebook claims to retain rights even if you delete content, but the damage you are talking about already occurred so I don't get your point.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:5, Insightful)
I won't even tell you about the lawyers I've had to battle (in 2 different corporations) because they wanted a complete list of all of the Open Source libraries and associated copyrights, BEFORE we even started the project.
The nice thing, though, was that we picked every POSSIBLE library that we could find and submitted them and their copyrights for their analysis/aproval.
So wait, you are saying that a lawyer, who is not technically savvy, wanted information to help ensure the company was protected (maybe from a TOS that says something "use of this OSS for personal use is OK but for business use requires you to ....."). And he wanted this information BEFORE you started installing/using the software? Gee, I wonder why a lawyer would want to read a contract before someone, who is not a lawyer, agreed to use the product and thusly enter the company into the contract. So then you guys go overboard, because you act like this lawyer is evil; and according to you this is why the lawyer gets fired. So far the only thing I have read is: "blah blah blah....we are jerks...blah blah blah"
Not all lawyers are evil...I would wager the amount of evil lawyers to good lawyers is about the same ratio as the amount of evil programmers to good programmers - actually probably less since lawyers could be disbarred if they get caught breaking the law. He was doing his job - protecting the company. You may think you know everything about OSS TOS, though I doubt you have read every single TOS out there for all the software that you use, but you are no lawyer.
Next time try and be a team player. If I ever ran into a person like you and was in a position to give them a job it would never happen. I would rather give the job to someone who appreciates and believes in using the best product for the job (be it closed source or open source) and would help the legal team go through the TOS (and to let them know the information they REALLY need) to make sure the company does not get put into a detrimental contract.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:3, Insightful)
Never underestimate the ignorance of many lawyer types.
Two points here: first, no attorney I've ever met will spend billable time making changes to any agreement unless the client asks for a change. Second, sometimes some member of the client's staff, in an attempt to impress the boss, will come up with language that was used at his former employer and have it inserted in the contract. Then when the shit hits the fan, he'll try to blame it on the attorneys.
Re:huhu (Score:5, Insightful)
So telling anyone anything is equivalent to yelling about it on a public street? I don't think so.
I hope you don't use email - after all, if that information goes through a company's servers, it's fair game for them to do what they like with it, as you might as well have published it on the front page of the news right?
(If you're going to say that email isn't a "public site", well, neither is facebook - access to information can be restricted to only certain people, just like with email.)
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:5, Insightful)
So, you knowingly and deliberately inflated your billing to your client by doing unnecessary work due entirely to your own conceit? You owe your client a refund.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:4, Insightful)
There's more to life than money. Some of us want to do something useful or important with our time here on Earth. As Keynes said, in the long run, we're all dead.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, that *is* what the lawyer asked for, if you read the post.
He was just doing what was asked of him.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:1, Insightful)
As opposed to... getting a good lawyer fired?
People "don't get" the WWW or the Internet (Score:4, Insightful)
...and THAT is why Facebook, or big "social networking" websites in general, have any relevance whatsoever.
The Internet, and especially the WWW, were supposed to enable ordinary people to publish their own information without influence and control of "big content providers". It was supposed to be the biggest revolution in publishing since Gutenberg's press--not only were books accessible to the masses, not the masses could publish THEIR OWN information!
What happened to this revolution? The technology is still there, but not only have we not progressed, we've SLID BACKWARDS! We've all abdicated our rights to and responsibilities for our own information to a small handful of very large corporate entities...and then we bitch and moan when those "big content providers" do exactly what we should have expected they'd do with your information--retain it, profit from it, and generally be careless with it.
That's NOT what the 'net was supposed to be about! We were supposed to "rent the pipes" and storage space like we do our phone lines and self-storage garages and then publish our data ourselves. I was thrilled when DSL came to the market here 12 years ago, followed quickly by broadband from the local cable companies. I was able to get internet connectivity 24/7! Now I only needed to "rent the pipe" and I could have even MORE control over how I published by info because I could RUN MY OWN SERVER!
It was looking to me like the dawn of a new era--anyone who wanted to could set up their own little server and run their own websites easier than ever before--the BBS world would be able to move forward from the domain of geeks with extra phone lines and modems to something more graphical and interconnected and "plug and play". People were taking about "internet appliances" and I assumed that as time went on that *two way* appliances would become ubiquitous.
It hasn't happened that way though. There seems to be this insistence that "internet appliances" be one-way client-only devices--merely enhanced TVs and radios where some big network can push information to us as THEY see fit. ISPs have further RESTRICTED the ability to host your own services instead of expanding that ability (primarily because the biggest ISPs are now owned by content publishers). And not only has the old school personal/small community-oriented BBS gone essentially extinct, so have REAL personal websites before they got a chance to really gain traction. We've DEVOLVED from publishing HTML documents on our local ISP's web servers to doing the same on global "web hosts" like Geocities to setting up blogs on global blogging sites to setting up groups on Facebook.
Facebook isn't an ISP, they are yet another traditional media publisher--we give our info away to them and they publish it as they see fit...just as how Old Media works. I suppose I always underestimate people's capacity for laziness or ignorance in this regard. It seems people just don't "get it", or maybe they just don't care. Whatever happened though, the 'net hasn't turned out the way I thought it would, and no amount of changes to the ToS of Facebook or similar sites will fix what is, in my view, the entirely wrong direction for the WWW.
Re:Oh, I'm sure that this will last. (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless team facebook is a bunch of utter morons, they knew that changing the TOS was likely to cause a stir(and, even if it didn't, it would cost a few lawyer hours). So, clearly, they had some reason for wanting to make the change. I'm guessing that that reason, whatever it is, didn't just vanish.
If the reason for the change was to prevent them from having to do something manpower-intensive whenever a user leaves and closes their page, I can see the reason for it, but the TOS change was worded badly. For example, Facebook makes an advertising image that is a montage of user pages, one of which is User X's page. User X closes their Facebook page and deletes their content. Under the old TOS, Facebook would have to go through all of their promotional material every time a user left to make sure none of it contained any of that user's content. But a statement like "You grant Facebook the right to use your uploaded content for promotional purposes; if you remove your content, Facebook is not obligated to remove existing promotional material that incorporates the deleted content, but may not create new promotional materials with that content" is probably too clear for lawyers to be happy with; if the average person could understand all the material in a contract, we wouldn't need anywhere near as many lawyers, and they'd have to go find real jobs.