Microsoft Says No Profit In Vista-XP Downgrades 315
CWmike writes "Microsoft has denied that it makes money when users 'downgrade' Windows Vista to XP, as a lawsuit filed last week alleges. The lawsuit, submitted last week, stems from the $59.25 fee that a California woman was charged in mid-2008 when she bought a Lenovo laptop and downgraded from Vista to XP. In fact, it's computer makers, not Microsoft per se, that charge users the additional fees for downgrading a new PC from Vista to XP at the factory. For example, Dell Inc. adds an extra $20 to the price to downgrade a PC. However, Microsoft may profit from the way it structures downgrade rights."
Of course they are making money (Score:3, Insightful)
It doesn't matter if your machine comes with vista or xp because you're probably going to pony-up the dough for MS Office, and there's the profit. As long as Microsoft keeps you on a Windows platform, be it vista or xp, they've got that Office gravy coming in.
I'm Confused (Score:3, Insightful)
Then again, this is Microsoft we're talking about. It's not supposed to make any sense. Carry on.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm confused.
Do you somehow think that buying Vista gives you a free copy of XP?
Does buying a PS3 give you a free PS2?
Does buying the bluray of Terminator 2 give you a free copy of the original?
Customization cost (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe their whole production process is customized with a Vista image. Imagine that you now have an employee that needs to yank out the vista hard drive, throw in an xp hard drive, and then have another employee make sure that it is an XP system before it ships out. Not to mention the cost of changing the OS sticker on the laptop...
So making a profit is illegal now? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if Microsoft was making money off a so-called downgrade, why is that grounds for a lawsuit? Are companies only allowed to profit from certain product lines now?
Re:I'm Confused (Score:5, Insightful)
something that to many people and organizations is still considered a valued piece of software.
There's the problem. People consider XP more valuable than Vista and are willing to pay extra for it, so they charge extra.
Re:Of course they are making money (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft makes money of course. But the question is: do they make money on the downgrade? The answer seems to be "no" since it's the computer vendor that is charging for the downgrade. It's right there in the article (even the summary!).
What you're talking about is something completely different.
PC Makers know people don't want Vista (Score:4, Insightful)
While it is possible that PC makers are capitalizing on what people don't want, I find it is more likely that Microsoft has a lot to do with encouragement to include/install Vista and/or discouragement to install/include Windows XP.
I suspect all that needs to be revealed is the ways in which Microsoft influences this activity.
There is always a real OS upgrade (Score:0, Insightful)
Windows Vista to OS X. It takes a hardware change, but being able to use an OS that is immune to viruses pays for itself in the long run with little chance of ID theft or your Mac being a client in yet another botnet.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you have to buy a PS3 to get a PS2?
Do you have to buy Terminator 2 to get Terminator 1?
No profit in downgrading? I stand to save $150 (Score:1, Insightful)
Ballmer would make a TERRIBLE heroin dealer.
Does anyone believe what MS says anyway?
Seems to me they lie pretty obviously to support lagging sales drives.
"98 is no good, use Millenium, it's better!"
"Millenium? Pfft, use Win2k!"
"Win2k is inherently flawed, XP is better!"
"XP is not good enough, use vista!"
"Vista isn't good enough, use Win7!"
And they make "improvements" every time, but the same subset of design flaws remain? What's wrong with this picture?
Why is the 64 bit heroin so much more expensive than the 32 bit black tar? Don't I get the first hit for free?
Re:I'm Confused (Score:4, Insightful)
No, and you don't need to buy Vista to get XP.
Choose a vendor that still sells XP.
Buy XP separately.
Use your old XP license on your new computer.
XP Home is $90.
Vista Home Basic is $90.
If a vendor has entered into an agreement with MS that states that all PCs must ship with Vista, then that was their fault. If they want to offer XP, for free or for an additional fee, that is their choice.
There is no rock or hard place.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm Confused (Score:4, Insightful)
There is computer price X, which includes the price of OS Y.
Thus when you buy a Vista machine you pay X + Y.
When you downgrade you are removing Y, and replacing it with Y1.
The question becomes what is the price of Y1? Answer Y1 > Y since you are paying to have a downgrade.
The thing is that X + Y = Y1 + X, ideally...
But what I think is happening is that the computer makers are saying with the downgrade you get X + Y + Y1. However the client has clearly stated that they want to downgrade and hence want to buy only X + Y1, and thus should not be charged with Y.
YET again Microsoft screws it up... Microsoft has become the laughing stock of the PC industry!
Re:I'm Confused (Score:3, Insightful)
What vendor promised a free copy of XP?
What vendor didn't deliver?
What involvement does MS have in the fulfillment of contracts between vendors and customers?
Then stop buying it already! (Score:5, Insightful)
What if everyone that wanted XP didn't buy Vista to downgrade and instead wrote to MS that they wanted XP without hoops?
Sure, the first few hundred will be laughed at by customer support. The next thousand maybe not so much. And after a hunderd thousand customers called (and sales not made) you can bet XP is all over the shelves again.
Sometimes life can be so easy, but we choose to make it difficult.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you have to buy a PS3 to get a PS2?
Do you have to buy Terminator 2 to get Terminator 1?
No, but the thing is that the OEMs and Microsoft don't WANT to sell XP anymore... but there's a market for it. It's called supply and demand. Of course, there's as much supply as they feel like making, but if the demand is high, they're gonna raise the price as high as they can get away with... and so far looks to me like they can get away with the high prices, seeing how people keep paying the downgrade fees.
This lawsuit is a total joke, and if this woman wins it I will have even more concern for the current state of our judicial system that I already have. If she doesn't want to pay for her software, she should switch to Linux... that's the Slashdot philosophy anyway, isn't it?
Re:When the cost to press the media... (Score:4, Insightful)
I hear you...
I use Windows as well, and Microsoft has become a laughing stock.... This company has become completely incompetent.
A good friend of mine has said things have changed. I asked how so. Well it used to be Microsoft would produce good stuff, now the management is there to do checkmarks.
I again asked, checkmarks?
Yes managers go there do a product cycle or so and then move on. They are not there to see the crap that they produce. They see the other crap and say, "oh this is how things are better and put in something else, thus adding to the crap." Then when they move on in a few years they get the Microsoft name on their resume and do real things...
There is some truth because NOBODY would work at Microsoft to get vested. The Microsoft share price has been doing nothing for the past 8 years. Thus the only thing you could get is a checkmark on the resume...
Re:Of course they are making money (Score:5, Insightful)
Not quite correct. FTA:"...when Dell was accused of gouging customers by charging $150 to downgrade a new computer to XP. Dell countered that although it did charge $20 to install XP on the machine, as well as to cover the cost of the additional media, the bulk -- $120 of the $150 -- was the price of upgrading the PC from the standard Home Premium to the more expensive Business edition.
Microsoft does not offer downgrade rights with its Vista Home Premium, the most popular of Vista's editions."
Your Dell config came with Vista Home Premium? Well, if you want XP you're SOL, that'll be $120 to 'upgrade' the Vista you want to 'downgrade'.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:3, Insightful)
When Sony advertises the PS3, it specifically states in the ad or the box whether that specific model will or not it will be able to play PS2 titles. If you want PS2 functionality, you either pay extra for a model that is backwards-compatible (*gasp*) or you will have to buy a PS2 as well.
When you buy Terminator 2, you're getting Terminator 2 and nothing else, unless you're buying a bundle that includes the previous version.
Likewise, when a person buys a PC with Vista, that's exactly what they're getting. If they want a PC with XP, they either pay extra for whatever reason the manufacturer seems to think it's valid, or they're free to go get their own copy and install it. No one is forcing you to buy it; you're free to decide not to buy it at all.
There are extra costs incurred by the PC manufacturer when they have to make changes to their 'assembly-line' model. It's no accident that you can get systems for dirt cheap these days, and this means they have to cut costs in any way possible, including limiting the number of steps during assembly, OS installation, etc. Having to make a change to this process results in extra costs, which obviously will be passed on to the consumer (duh). Whether these costs are justifiable or not doesn't matter; you either pay them, or you don't.
You don't want a PC with Vista? Fine, don't buy it. You want the PC but with XP? Fine, buy it with Vista and install it yourself, *or* pay the extra $50 or whatever and have them do it for you. You were given the choice, don't bitch about it.
What's with this entitlement attitude that's been creeping up allover the place? When will consumers understand that they're not entitled to anything other than what's specifically agreed to as part of the specific items or goods being sold?
I wonder if we should also be able to sue dumbasses like this lady for bringing frivolous lawsuits to the courts and taking up valuable time and tax dollars that could be better used for more relevant things, like going after actual criminals.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:4, Insightful)
The issue isn't that the woman doesn't want to pay for XP. She wants to get XP without paying for an unrelated and exta OS.
The issue is that she doesn't want to be forced to buy something that she isn't going to use to buy something she does want.
Just because she can't get XP pre-installed for no additional cost from a vendor of her choosing...
...does not mean that she can't find a different vendor or build her own machine with XP.
There are copies of XP out there - buy them! If Dell were her only method of getting a computer with XP, that would be one thing. But it's not - there are alternative options.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, so I won't
Yes
No, I won't pay a cent for something I don't plan to use. I very specifically don't want to reward in the slightest or appear in the usage statistics of something I don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole.
Neither. It doesn't make sense that I have to pay extra for the ability of using something older, which by all logic should be cheaper.
I wasn't given enough choice, and yes, I will bitch about it until satisfied, because that's the only way things get done these days. See the recent Facebook TOS change. Have enough people complain about it loudly enough, and things do get done.
The manufacturers aren't doing me a favour by allowing me to buy their products. I'm doing them a favour by choosing their product and paying a price, and no, I'm not going to comply with arbitrary demands and act as if their offerings were gifts from heaven.
Re:Of course they are making money (Score:5, Insightful)
Not 2 licenses... At my company, we build clones for our customer - with Vista, but we downgrade them all to XP. It's just 1 license. According to M$FT, They will not provide you with Media (you need your own XP media) or a license key (you reuse a key you have). When you go to activate, (if you didn't use a non-activation code) you have to explain to the rep that you are using your downgrade rights, and they will provide a new machine code for activation (not a new key). Vista Ultimate and Vista Business can be downgraded to XP in this manner.
So, to paraphrase: ...a license key (you reuse a key you have).
1. They will not provide you with Media (you need your own XP media)
2. They will not provide you with
3. Some complex bullshit is required to activate.
Sounds just like downloading a Torrent, only more expensive...
Re:So making a profit is illegal now? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm Confused (Score:3, Insightful)
No, I won't pay a cent for something I don't plan to use. I very specifically don't want to reward in the slightest or appear in the usage statistics of something I don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole.
Then don't buy it, period. If you're so adamant about not touching Vista in any way/shape/form, and all manufacturers offer are systems with Vista pre-installed, then I guess you won't be purchasing a system then. That's the choice you have.
It doesn't make sense that I have to pay extra for the ability of using something older, which by all logic should be cheaper.
How is it illogical?
It is not uncommon to find 'older' things to be more expensive than 'new' things for whatever reason. For example, original IBM Model M keyboards are quite pricey, even though they're *old*. You can get a Model M clone from a number of different places (cheap too), but it's not quite the same, so people will still pay a premium for the original Model M.
There's dozens of other examples such as this one out there, just look for them.
I wasn't given enough choice, and yes, I will bitch about it until satisfied, because that's the only way things get done these days.
You were given the choice to buy it as is, pay extra to get it 'your way', or not buy it at all. I'd say there is ample room there to make a choice.
The manufacturers aren't doing me a favour by allowing me to buy their products. I'm doing them a favour by choosing their product and paying a price, and no, I'm not going to comply with arbitrary demands and act as if their offerings were gifts from heaven.
You're wrong when you think in terms of 'allowance'.
Manufacturers are not allowing you to do anything; they make a product and offer it for sale, and it's your choice to buy it or not. If the product does not meet your needs, expectations, or ideology, you're free to buy a different product, not buy anything at all, or go build your own.
Manufacturers are in business to make a profit, not to respond to every whiner's whim.
That's what people seem to be forgetting.
Re:I'm Confused (Score:5, Insightful)
So as I said, I don't. XP is what I want, but I refuse to get it by getting Vista first. The only option I will go with is "XP, at a normal price"
That one is easy, there's demand, there's little supply, and you can't make an original Model M without restarting whatever factory made them, which may have already been demolished.
Software is much different. Pressing an XP CD and pressing a Vista CD has the same cost, measured in cents. Preloading XP is unlikely to be more expensive than preloading Vista, especially since it's something that's been done for many years, and every manufacturer by now will have the process fully set up and debugged.
By all logic, XP should be cheaper.
The only reason it isn't is because Microsoft wants to sell people Vista, regardless of what they want. But that has nothing to do with the economics of CD pressing and distribution.
That's how it used to work. Things aren't like this anymore.
These days, the customers aren't independent anonymous people who show up at a shop and make an independent choice about which flavor of jam to buy. These days they go on forums, communicate and organize, and when they figure out that they can pressure a manufacturer to get what they want, they go and do that, because in large enough numbers it works.
You seem to fail to realize that what you say enables this. I can say "I won't buy Vista, and won't buy XP at an extra price". For me individually this means that if MS doesn't offer the option I want, then yes, I go and use something else instead. But when it turns out that it's not just me, and there are millions of people who want the same, suddenly they become strong enough to force MS bend to their demand, because when there are that many people who want something, some of them turn out to be in control of important contracts, some willing enough to start a lawsuit, some to make their opinions widely heard, and so on. And collectively, all that, might well cost more than giving people what they want.
Manufacturers are in the business to respond whims shared by millions of whining potential customers, because not doing that endangers their ability to make a profit.
Re:Weird (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft mandates that you must upgrade to Vista Business to downgrade.
So unless Microsoft is selling the Basic and Business versions for the same price, they ARE profiting from the downgrade.
Re:Of course they are making money (Score:3, Insightful)
You're right. It *shouldn't* be.
It's unfortunate that it is.
1999 called... (Score:3, Insightful)
1999 called, and they want their rant back!
Seriously, can we stop with the Microsoft-is-Eeevil and I-had-to-pay-microsoft-tax crap? Or is it a religious mindset that won't let you see the truth? It's impossible to convince a flatearther that the world is not flat, a troofer that 9/11 wasn't an inside job, and a Microsoft-basher that the world isn't secretly being run from Redmond.
We all have choices. If you choose to use Microsoft products, then the only one you can blame is yourself. I built a new computer over the weekend. It does not have any Microsoft product installed. Not Windows, not Office, nothing. There was no Microsoft tax. The computer was CHEAPER than the equivalent Dell.
Don't like that choice? Then buy an Apple. I know it's fashionable to pretend that Macs aren't really computers, but it's not much different from pretending that the world is flat. They're not much more expensive, much more stylish, and slightly more reliable. Don't like that choice either? Buy a computer with Linux, or without any OS. You won't find them at your local BigBox store, but you can find them online. So stop whining and start exercising your choice. If you don't it will just atrophy.
Re:Of course they are making money (Score:4, Insightful)
They didn't want to make it easier to use, they wanted to make it patentable ("The Ribbon Interface"). Now they get to license the Office Look & Feel.