Forgot your password?
typodupeerror

Microsoft Launches Free Web Software Eco-System 133

Posted by ScuttleMonkey
from the and-i'm-sure-it-will-be-bug-and-bloat-free dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft, inspired perhaps by the ease of selecting and installing iPhone apps, has taken a similar approach to gather back market share of its IIS web server in a predominantly Apache/PHP market. 10 open source CMS, gallery, wiki, and blog tools were chosen to populate the eco-system, dubbed Web App Gallery. Developers must agree to principles and can now submit their PHP or .NET application for inclusion. Once an application is in the gallery, Windows users use Microsoft Web Platform Installer, released in a keynote at MIX this week, which inspects the the local system, and installs and configures dependencies like the IIS webserver, PHP, URL re-writers, and file permissions. Screenshots show this to be quite easy for the typical computer user. This could provide some real competition for WAMP and Linux shell install processes."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Microsoft Launches Free Web Software Eco-System

Comments Filter:
  • But... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:22PM (#27303161)
    Does it run Linux?
  • by Kickboy12 (913888) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:23PM (#27303173) Homepage

    It's not every day you see "Microsoft" and "Free" in the same headline.

    You think this is a sign Microsoft is legitimately trying to reach out to the web community? Or is this just another attempt to grab server market share from Apache and the Linux community?

    Generally, I think the last thing the web needs is more servers running IIS.

    • by qoncept (599709) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:27PM (#27303241) Homepage

      You think this is a sign Microsoft is legitimately trying to reach out to the web community? Or is this just another attempt to grab server market share from Apache and the Linux community?

      Um.. what's the difference? One thing I can promise you is that Microsoft, like any other company, does what it feels is in its best interest. ie, they aren't trying to do anyone a favor here, they're trying to make more money.

      • by Kickboy12 (913888)

        I guess the difference would be their target audience. Are they targeting some random joe who wants to setup a wordpress blog? Or are they targeting server administrator who would be making the decisions about what software to use?

        I can't really tell to be honest.

        • by Firehed (942385) on Monday March 23, 2009 @06:09PM (#27304491) Homepage

          I'm inclined to think that they want to put IIS (and ASP.NET) in front of as many casual Windows-based web developers as possible. Of course with both WAMP and XAMPP taking about three minutes to install I'm not sure that will work - especially since a number of PHP web apps require some odd hacks to get them to work under IIS.

          In order to be "deployable" under these settings, new developers will have to use the same hacks and/or workarounds, and could well forget to address how the standard behavior will act on *AMP servers, theoretically creating a bunch of new PHP web apps that will only deploy properly on PHP/IIS servers.

          Of course, the number of hosts that are offering PHP/IIS rather than *AMP is absolutely miniscule, so these apps catching on (if this is the case) is slim to none.

          Part of me thinks that it's more a ploy to get .NET in front of PHP developers, trying to sell them on the "look at all of this premade, drag-and-drop functionality" thing, but I doubt that will make a difference. Devs that need what .NET offers are going to already be using IIS setups and PHP devs will probably ignore it due to the relatively steep learning curve (or just being forced to work in Visual Studio unless you want to memorize an entire framework).

          So... I have no idea. If my cynicism is correct, then I see what they're trying to do but don't see it working that well. If not, then your guess is as good as mine.

          • by gbjbaanb (229885) on Monday March 23, 2009 @06:27PM (#27304719)

            Of course with both WAMP and XAMPP taking about three minutes to install I'm not sure that will work

            Ah but it will, Microsoft developers don't tend to look outside the box to see if there's anything else out there - they generally assume that MS provides all they would ever need, and if MS doesn't provide it, its either not available at all, or they never needed it anyway.

            This is why this will succeed, the MS blogs and communities will pick up on it and suddenly they'll think its the best thing ever. I doubt they'll actually use much PHP, that's just the teaser to pre-populate the site with apps, they'll all get taken over with ASP.NET MVC stuff before too long -the MS crowd just don't like to install 'foreign' stuff like PHP when they will think nothing of installing over a gig of .net framework to start playing with C#.

            So - I don't know if it'll work well either.

            • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

              by Anonymous Coward

              Isn't Microsoft Developer an Oxymoron?

            • the Geocities of our day.

              Has it ever struck anyone else that aside from a mediocre Update center Microsofts software delivery mechanism is archaic, almost fundamentally useless? If this level of innovation wasn't systemic throughout our industry (and many others) they would have been laughed out of business a long time ago.
            • by Seahawk (70898)

              ...when they will think nothing of installing over a gig of .net framework to start playing with C#

              Lets let Microsoft spread the FUD please - My installation of .Net takes up pretty much the same amount of space as Java does, around 160MB.

              • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

                by gbjbaanb (229885)

                The redistributables are not exactly a gig - though I always think like that because they are huge (I have to download the full ones to install on my customer's site as they're not connected to the internet)

                But: add them up, its not a gig, but its getting there:

                .NET Framework 1.0 Redist: 19.7MB
                .NET Framework 1.1 Redist: 23.1MB
                .NET Framework 2.0 Redist: 22.4MB
                .NET Framework 3.0 Redist: 50.3MB ( x86 )
                .NET Framework 3.0 Redist: 90.1MB ( x64 )
                .NET Framework 3.5 Redist: 197.0MB

                plus another 50 odd Mb for th

                • by JAlexoi (1085785)
                  So you are saying that .NET already overtook Java in the download size, even Java SDK is only 100mb. Interesting... Very interesting.
              • by chrish (4714)

                I'm not even sure it's that big... the "all these RPMs in a ZIP" archive of the Mono 2.2 runtime for RedHad is around 40MB.

                Actually, I just checked, the .NET 2.0 runtime for XP is a 22MB download.

                IMHO (and I'm sure this will earn me some /. flames) .NET and C# are a couple of the best things to come out of MS. And I'm quite happy about being able to use them on my Mac (via Mono) when the need arises (and it does, 'cause I do C#/.NET stuff in my day job).

          • I'm a Sr dev / team lead at a .com that uses PHP predominately.

            Let me tell you something about PHP developers that I've learned, myself included.

            The good ones are Software Developers who just happen to know PHP. Without exception, of our 30 developers, the ones that know just PHP are Jr-Level and have much to learn.

            The rest of us, there's no joy in PHP. It's a kludge of a language. The garbage collector is horrendous. The external libraries are more buggy and slower than their counterparts in python or ruby

      • Doing someone a favour and trying to make more money aren't mutually exclusive; in fact, it can be clever business practice. By doing so, you can improve the perception of your company, the better perception results in people being more likely to buy products and services from you, and you've done it all without doing something unethical or illegal.

        Frankly, I'd much rather Microsoft did stuff like the above, making their products easier to use, especially with 3rd-party products, than just being plain ar
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:28PM (#27303249)

      It's not every day you see "Microsoft" and "Free" in the same headline.

      Nonsense [thepiratebay.org]

    • by Andr T. (1006215) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (ffaterdna)> on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:28PM (#27303261)

      It's not every day you see "Microsoft" and "Free" in the same headline.

      Search for 'Microsoft' in google. One of the top results will be "Microsoft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

      • by Lanu2000 (972889)

        It's not every day you see "Microsoft" and "Free" in the same headline.

        Search for 'Microsoft' in google. One of the top results will be "Microsoft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

        This begs the question... you search for Microsoft every day?

    • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:40PM (#27303399) Journal
      You'll notice, "free" applies to other people's software. Microsoft, ever infinitely gracious, deigns to allow you to give your software away so that they can sell more of theirs.

      Nobody should be surprised by a move like this. Web applications, CMSes and the like, are complementary goods to web servers and OSes. Everybody wants goods complementary to their own products to be cheaper, so as to drive demand. This isn't some sort of philosophical revolution, just Econ 101 + self interest on MS's part.
    • by HangingChad (677530) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:48PM (#27303481) Homepage

      Or is this just another attempt to grab server market share from Apache and the Linux community?

      This is MS trying to show everyone they can play in the "cloud" with the cool kids. It's the Zune for SAS.

      Back in the day MS came out with Explorer and hosed Netscape. Seems like ever since they wait for the trend to establish itself and then come in with a competing product trying to recreate that market capture moment from years ago. Only they show up late with products that are usually tied to their OS platform and maybe a little dorky.

      Microsoft trying to be hip and trendy sometimes reminds me of a middle-aged guy hitting on his daughters college-age friends.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Kz (4332)

        Only they show up late with products that are usually tied to their OS platform and maybe a little dorky.

        Doesn't that describe IE?

      • by BitZtream (692029)

        Explorer never hosed Netscape, it doesn't compete in any way with any Netscape product that ever existed. Internet Explorer on the other hand drove Navigator into the ground and they are still recovering from that.

    • by Foofoobar (318279)
      Honestly, if their agreement made it so they would host projects for Apache as well, I'd totally jump onboard. I mean after all, sourceforge hosts projects for Windows and IIS. Why does Microsoft segregate? If they are talking about embracing open source, they can't sit here picking and choosing. They need to embrace or STFU already. You can't be kinda pregnant.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 23, 2009 @07:01PM (#27305137)

      It's not every day you see "Microsoft" and "Free" in the same headline.

      Not "free" as in beer, "free" as in cheese in a mousetrap...

    • Trying to attribute 'human' values, even malice, to a company is like dressing your poodle. 'Microsoft' has no intent, only individuals have intent. What they do have is a large, constantly changing body of managers along with a history of cut-throat business policies and more often then not, sub-par products.

      What do you think they'll do?
    • It's not every day you see "Microsoft" and "Open source" in the same headline.
    • by Ed Avis (5917)

      You think this is a sign Microsoft is legitimately trying to reach out to the web community? Or is this just another attempt to grab server market share from Apache and the Linux community?

      Well, duh, it's both.

      Do you think Burger King's new Whopper is a legitimate attempt to reach out to the fast-food community? Or are they just trying to take market share from McDonald's?

      Generally, I think the last thing the web needs is more servers running IIS.

      I'm inclined to agree, but I think recent IISes are not the

  • by guruevi (827432) <evi@NOSpam.smokingcube.be> on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:23PM (#27303179) Homepage

    PHPNuke and other CMS'es or weblog thingies like Wordpress made it simple to create websites for the masses of people that just wanted something simple to host their website. Of course, they never kept up with any of the updates or didn't even give a hoot about security. Next thing you know you have a bunch of websites that are cracked and now serve ads and malware.

    • by 77Punker (673758)

      Next thing you know you have a bunch of websites that are cracked and freelance developers can charge big bucks to fix.

      FTFY
      Danger and opportunity are often the same!

    • by tearmeapart (674637) on Monday March 23, 2009 @05:26PM (#27303993) Homepage Journal

      ...and I think the others are usually a lot easier to install. Microsoft's takes at least 5 steps (with steps like 1. "Download, Configure, Install MySQL").

      Meanwhile, on many other systems, it is a lot less work:
      Ubuntu:
      1. In the Programs menu, click "Add/Remove"
      2. Select the CMS (or whatever) that you want, and click "Install"
      3. Enjoy.

      Other debian systems:
      1. apt-get install my-favourite-cms

      Freebsd:
      1. cd /usr/ports/www/my-favourite-cms; make install

      And finally, a quick comparison between this new Microsoft way and the usual ways with GNU Linux/BSD:
      Installing is easier with GNU Linux/BSD
      Configuration is easier with GNU Linux/BSD
      Support is generally more available with GNU Linux/BSD
      Writing plugins is generally a whole lot easier with GNU Linux/BSD because the code is available

      Especially with the new tools available, I believe IIS deserves to die.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        It isn't apache (the webserver) that provides the comfort you describe. The package managing system is. So why should IIS (the webserver) die?
        Someone should provide a package managing system to enable the comfort for IIS. Oh, look at that, the summary says Microsoft is doing that.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        If you need access to the source code of a system write plugins for it, the plugin system in place isn't a very good one IMHO
      • Yeah, so what? (Score:1, Flamebait)

        by CAIMLAS (41445)

        Yeah? So what? In Linux or BSD, do you get the nice user experience with a pretty icon to click to install the product? No? I didn't think so!

        • by smoker2 (750216)
          O RLY? [headru.sh]BTW that includes PHP and Perl and tomcat and various other bits and pieces to link dbases etc. And is pictured on Fedora Core 4 ... which was released quite some time ago now.
          • by CAIMLAS (41445)

            That was actually intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek and mocking of the Windows and its users. Linux distro makers rock.

  • ... Windows-like synaptic for web apps.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    Spider invites flies into web. Film at 11.

  • Big deal. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Red Flayer (890720) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:28PM (#27303263) Journal

    "Microsoft, inspired[1] perhaps by the ease of selecting and installing iPhone apps, has taken a similar approach to gather back market share of its IIS web server in a predominantly Apache/PHP market. 10 open source[2] CMS, gallery, wiki, and blog tools were chosen to populate the eco-system, dubbed Web App Gallery.

    [1] I think submitter mis-spelled "feeling threatened".

    [2] Big deal. Two open source tools? How many closed-source tools are in the "ecosystem"?

    • Re:Big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by CannonballHead (842625) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:43PM (#27303429)

      Big deal. Two open source tools? How many closed-source tools are in the "ecosystem"?

      Open Source != Good. Closed Source != Bad. Just as open source and bad are not mutually exclusive, closed source and good are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what Stallman thinks. I have used quite a few closed source programs that I like quite a bit, and quite a few open source programs that were plain awful. And vice versa. The idea that in order to be a Good Thing (tm) it has to be Open Source (tm) is a Weird Thing (tm).

      • Whoosh.

        Admittedly, a bad joke.

        But, as someone's sig once said:

        There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

      • Re:Big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:48PM (#27303487) Journal
        This is probably tangental; but Stallman takes no position on the quality of proprietary or free software programs. His position is strictly concerned with the ethics and implications for freedom of the two.

        It is the business side guys, the ones who talk about "open source" who advance the argument that the development model produces better, as opposed to freer or more ethical, software

        You don't have to agree with him; but you should, in that case, at least disagree with him rather than somebody else entirely.
        • True, but "good" and "bad" do not necessarily only refer to quality. I think a lot of knee-jerk (which, in this case, apparently was a joke that I missed :) ) reactions of "Microsoft! Closed source! Lynch them!" come from more the "ethical" side than the business side... the sort of "I think Linux is the end-all operating system" mentality. Not to say someone usually comes out and says it like that, but there does appear to be that stance taken when non-Linux (or more generally, anything-related-to-Wind
          • Re:Big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)

            by jedidiah (1196) on Monday March 23, 2009 @05:31PM (#27304065) Homepage

            If I choose Microsoft they will strive to trap me, perhaps not today but someday and for the rest of my life.

            The fact that Microsoft is a greedy little spider is not something that should ever be ignored.

      • by CAIMLAS (41445)

        Open Source != Good. Closed Source != Bad. Just as open source and bad are not mutually exclusive, closed source and good are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what Stallman thinks.

        I don't know. Just like the next guy, I think Stallman is probably as crazy as a shit house bat, but my experience has typically been both:

        1) Open source = good
        2) Closed source = bad

        Now, I'm not talking about ALL representative examples of each model. But the representative/preferred examples of major applications within thos

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      [1] I think submitter mis-spelled "feeling threatened".

      I think you misspelled "misspelled." ;-)

  • by saibot834 (1061528) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:31PM (#27303301) Homepage

    Servers are maintained by people who are not computer newbies and need a GUI. Normally they know how to handle a shell.
    Extremely ease install routines for server applications suggest that maintaining a server and keeping it secure is a trivial task, just like clicking those shiny "install" buttons. This is not the case, and you better know how to keep your server save if you run it on the web, especially if you make the somewhat disturbing choice to run it under Windows.

    • by rackserverdeals (1503561) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:34PM (#27303335) Homepage Journal

      There are plenty of people with servers out there that don't know what they're doing and couldn't restart a service if their control panel software got hosed.

      • by thetoadwarrior (1268702) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:38PM (#27303383) Homepage
        And we shouldn't encourage those sort of people to run servers.
        • MICROSOFT: Turning dumbasses into network admins since 1975.
    • by MeanMF (631837) on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:38PM (#27303369) Homepage
      That may be true for larger sites, but there's a huge market for low-cost, turnkey web hosting usually fronted with cPanel or Plesk. Microsoft wants to get into that market.
    • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

      Real administrators don't use package managers, either. Real administrators know how to handle compiling from source for anything they want to install and spending two hours configuring it for their system.

      Real Linux users don't use silly things like synaptic and apt-get and other such command line tools. Real Linux users use wget to get a tarball and compile from source, editing menus in gnome or kde by themselves (if they ever use gnome or kde, most of the time Real Linux Users just use lynx).

      The point

    • by aftk2 (556992)
      Sigh. This isn't for servers. This is for developers. You know, the people who develop that which is eventually deployed to your precious servers, without which those servers would be useless â" as servers tend to require something to, you know, SERVE.

      Jesus. Server administrators should be happy about this. Let Joe Developer hack away at his Wordpress install on his local machine, rather than bugging you right away to install it on the server.
    • by CAIMLAS (41445)

      Analogy:

      Clicky server application installs, made publicly available on the Internet, is akin to a blind man saying "look, I can drive a train!" if they've ridden on the subway a time or two.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    "It's a trap!"

    • by gnool (1005253)
      Dugg for Admiral Ackbar
    • I suspect MS will do something dastardly, like customizing the various CMS systems they use to use MS SQL when they did not do so previously, with different table and row names within the database, providing no ways for your an average user to export the data into any other format than MS SQL.

      Sure, it's workable, but for someone who doesn't know how to install things manually - never mind what was installed in the first place? Good luck. He's locked in and stuck using IIS on Windows, now.

      Ironic: free softwa

  • And since it only runs on Windows, its just more reason send Microsoft some more money! Oh wait! I LOOKED at an ASP page earlier. I think I owe Ballmer another quarter....
  • by Anonymous Coward

    The reason why Microsoft is giving support to open source applications is not because it wishes to support open source.

    It is because it fears the open source operating system more than anything else. It imagines that if they welcome open source application developers onto the Microsoft platform they will be able to undermine support for the rival operating system (Linux).

    If and when the rival operating system fades into disuse, those open source application developers will find that the Microsoft embrace ca

  • by SuiteSisterMary (123932) <slebrun@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Monday March 23, 2009 @04:56PM (#27303589) Journal

    Microsoft, inspired perhaps by the ease of selecting and installing iPhone apps

    Yup. Cuz nobody's every thought about a package manager before. Especially not one with a nice, GUI front end.

    Hey, maybe Microsoft will adopt something similar for the Xbox 360. You know, to make it easier to download add-ons, small games, videos, and so on. They could call it, I don't know, Xbox Live Marketplace or something. Too bad it's too late for them to have done it for the Xbox. Real shame that.

  • Seriously, I do some web dev volunteer stuff. On OSX setting up AMP is so easy. The machine comes with apache and php to start with. Most apps (PHPAdmin/ joomla/ smarty) install easily.

    My friend who helps out runs Ubuntu and its again a straight forward installs to get his LAMP going.

    • by Shados (741919)

      this is mostly to get third party stuff and the dev tools. If the goal is just to get a web dev environment setup period, then it IS pretty much that simple in Windows too, as its preinstalled, its just not activated. You go in the Add/Remove programs, click IIS and ASP.NET, and thats pretty much it. You're missing the database (but for something simplistic, Jet is built in...otherwise you just get SQL Server Express with a next next next finish wizard).

      This just makes that all even -easier-, and setup stuf

  • Disclaimer: I work for http://acquia.com/ [acquia.com] , and we provide commercial support and network services for the open-source Drupal CMS. Over several weeks, we worked with Microsoft to make sure Drupal would be well represented in the Windows Application Gallery to provide IIS users access to an easy to use Drupal installation. The result is here http://www.microsoft.com/web/gallery/AcquiaDrupal.aspx [microsoft.com] We already provide Drupal Windows and Mac stack installers for Apache at http://acquia.com/downloads [acquia.com] and so thi
  • by nizo (81281) * on Monday March 23, 2009 @05:51PM (#27304295) Homepage Journal

    If it is an entire Eco-System it must include the viruses too I assume?

  • OK ... I've only read up on it a little so far, but I have to ask:

    Most of those apps use mysql on the backend (at least WP and Drupal do ... and those are two of the main apps touted). BUT! The platform only mentions SQL Server as far as I've read so far. Is MySQL quietly installed or is this some port of those apps that uses SQL Server? Some DB Abstraction Layer (find that hard to believe)?

    Mod me down for not reading enough or being lazy if you want, but I an still trying to figure out how they include

  • This could provide some real competition for WAMP and Linux shell install processes.

    sudo apt-get install wordpress

    Oooooh yeah, that *was* difficult!

    Also, this isn't Microsoft copying Apple as much as it's copying Fantastico [netenberg.com]. Fantastico (when combined with cPanel) has had the "point and click to install your web app" thing down for year. Proprietary, yes. Buggy, yes. But it works and is a standard feature on any decent commercial Linux webhosting account.

    • But you have to remember that these people would have to look up this command on the Web.
      And since they are primarily using IE, their computer is usually hosed, so they can't get to the web to look for the information.
      That's why they have all these point and clicky things in their servers and support phone lines that charge by the hour.

      But for right now, I'm still ahead of the curve, I support Linux servers and only linux servers. Those guys working on MS servers work to hard and know less about what
  • I wish Microsoft well in their endeavor.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    There are already open source projects for this kind of functionality.

    PackageKit [wikipedia.org] already have a basic start [gnome.org] for something like this.

    The web frontend for PackageKit can be further developed. The web software developers should be encouraged to develop simple web based configuration for their applications.

    Easy to configure web based applications with PackageKit based package management have a lot of positive aspects.
    PackageKit - Main Page [packagekit.org]
    PackageKit - Screenshots [packagekit.org]

    Installing public web pages from tarballs has alw

  • A good friend of mine Akira Ohgaki [mjr.in] has been offering Web-based Package Installer for Ubuntu [appnr.com] for quite sometime now.
  • SilverStripe, one of the PHP/MySQL applications included in Microsoft's Web Application gallery, gets 40% of its installs on Windows currently. So, to streamline those installs makes a good set of sense, especially as a high number of those would be purely for evaluation purposes, where the focus is to get a copy quickly running with all the correct dependencies sorted. http://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-installation-trends-march2009/ [silverstripe.org]
  • I understand exactly what is the target audience for this. Let me give you a concrete example that happened to me recently. I am now working in China, and most Chinese IT guys I know here are MS-only guys who think the whole world revolves around MS products and nothing else exists, sadly it is a reality here (go try to find a Linux netbook in Shanghai - good luck). However, lately a sister school asked me to help their IT guys to install Moodle on their school's server (we run it on a Debian system), but T
  • "Be Compatible: The application to which you provide a link must run on Windows Server 2003, Windows Server 2008, Windows XP & Windows Vista using best practices on running ASP.NET applications and PHP applications on IIS."

    Heh heh heh heh, heh heh heh heh.

    Well, whatever. It's all Microsoft Windows to me.

  • by mgiuca (1040724)

    Windows will be a thing of the past, come April 1...

  • They run faster and you shouldn't run services on a desktop machine anyways if you worry about slowness. Put linux on an old computer, setup the LAMP, and there you go. Samba will allow you to access the files directly and you can even use the old computer as a dedicated server. No need to purchase Windows 2k3 or 2k8.

In any formula, constants (especially those obtained from handbooks) are to be treated as variables.

Working...