Hulu Munging HTML With JS To Protect Content 281
N!NJA writes "Hulu has started encoding the html that they send to people's browsers, and then decoding it using javascript before rendering it. [...] They then run the character stream through a series of javascript functions to convert it back into plain text before pushing it into your browser using DHTML. That's quite a lot of effort just for fun, so I assume that is to stop screen scrapers from parsing content." I really can't understand all this effort. Boxee displayed the Hulu advertising perfectly. I suspect Alec Baldwin is to blame.
Don't they want people to use Hulu? (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean, the alternative here is to use torrents. Why would Hulu (or their corporate overlords) want to make it difficult to use Hulu, when it's already just as easy to download the show and play it in whatever media center thingamajig I want with no ads?
Dumb question here (Score:5, Insightful)
Couldn't an enterprising screen-scraper also just run it through the same Javascript code? Hulu is forgetting what I like to call the Fundamental Law of DRM: if you make data possible for users to see /hear, it will be possible for a reasonably enterprising user to copy it.
Can you blame them? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Don't they want people to use Hulu? (Score:5, Insightful)
They *want* you to go back to watching regular TV, where the ad revenue is greatest.
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably more targeting people like me. I've already considered writing an app to scrape the pages, and download ALL their movies to a large hard drive or two.
I'm sure it's on a lot of other people's minds too with similar skills.
I do that from time to time for web archives of images too. Curse that 1000 hit limit on images.google.com!
Re:Can you blame them? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hulu wants nothing to do with them and would rather they go away. They want to be able to release this stuff, but control it at the same time.
As Long As It Works With Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as Hulu continues to work with a Linux-based browser, I'm happy. This is unlike ABC, whose system doesn't support Linux at all.
Their loss (or perhaps I should say "They're Lost").
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't it nice knowing that we evolved from rats?
Do you really believe that all of this content is going to get less available over time? Note that this would essentially contradict all of history.
Re:Can you blame them? (Score:5, Insightful)
> if they wanted aggregates to link to their content I would think hulu would have provided an API to allow it.
They did. It's called the hypertext transfer protocol.
Peter's Law of Obfuscation (Score:1, Insightful)
The more complicated your technique of hiding data, the more interested a hacker becomes in breaking it.
Re:Don't they want people to use Hulu? (Score:5, Insightful)
They *want* you to go back to watching regular TV, where the ad revenue is greatest.
As you probably know, that cat's not going back into the bag. I wonder whether the inability to admit this and work with it is a special trait of media companies or if it's just true of large organizations in general?
Re:Content Providers' Demands? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hulu is a joint venture of NBC Universal and Fox Entertainment Group. The Hulu management might not precisely be content providers, but the folks holding the purse are.
Ad revenue on TV Ad revenue on Hulu (Score:4, Insightful)
Simply put, the ad revenue on Hulu is much, much less than on TV. Sure, it beats piracy (a little money and control over how long your content is on there) but if people were to cancel cable or watch Hulu on their Xboxes more, both cable/satellite providers and the content providers themselves would be unhappy.
Just another game of cat & mouse: Hulu makes changes, and Boxee updates. The hope is that if you make the workarounds unreliable enough to the point where people are too irritated, most will switch back to TV, with a few using Hulu just online on their computers and a few turning back to piracy.
I really don't get this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dumb question here (Score:5, Insightful)
Couldn't an enterprising screen-scraper also just run it through the same Javascript code? Hulu is forgetting what I like to call the Fundamental Law of DRM: if you make data possible for users to see /hear, it will be possible for a reasonably enterprising user to copy it.
Sure. Except, crappy as the Javascript "encryption" is, now you're in violation of the DMCA by reverse engineering a copy protection mechanism.
Re:Dumb question here (Score:5, Insightful)
Couldn't an enterprising screen-scraper also just run it through the same Javascript code? Hulu is forgetting what I like to call the Fundamental Law of DRM: if you make data possible for users to see /hear, it will be possible for a reasonably enterprising user to copy it.
I think you left some of that Fundamental Law unstated. This is an approximation of the full version:
If you make data possible for users to see/hear, it will be possible for a reasonably enterprising user to copy it. Only one such user is needed to make a DRM-free (and ad-free) version available via BitTorrent. Meanwhile, you stand to annoy all of your legitimate/paying/ad-watching users, especially if they understand this Fundamental Law and/or your assumption of bad faith.
Just More Proof... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly? Hulu is a great service (if you live in the US) but its not a high priority target for piracy. Why go to the effort of ripping a stream with ads in it when the torrent is already out?
Re:I can't understand...Boxee displayed ads perfec (Score:5, Insightful)
These guys do understand that nothing prevents me from plugging my laptop into a TV and running a browser on it? And nothing prevents me from plugging a tuner card into my computer and showing TV on the monitor? So regardless of what they do, they can't make something show on a computer but not on a TV?
Wait a minute, my assistant is handing me an envelope he says will explain everything.
(envelope opening noises)
The note inside says "They're total idiots".
Yep, that does explain everything.
Re:Dumb question here (Score:5, Insightful)
Brand dilution guys.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hulu is a BRAND. It wants to live in its own world and be exclusive.
So their attitude is "Frak Boxie", as boxie is trying to DESTROY the brand of all the video sites to be replaced by the Boxee brand.
Why should Hulu play nice?
Re:Can you blame them? (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely.
It's been cute these last 10 years watching companies try to put things on the Internet and monopolize the information they put up. If you don't require user authentication, it's public.
If you want to piggy back in a web browser, with a public protocol like HTTP, expect people to interact with your server in unintended ways.
The only way to prevent this is to invent your own propietary protocol, and your own client. And even this doesn't prevent reverse-engineering of the protocol to gain access.
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, trust me, the freakin' programmers and IT people make it impossible. All us MBAs want to do is output a freakin graph, and you put us through all kinds of process steps, and gates and usability testing, and then decide it will cost $1Million just to make a simple change. No wonder nothing gets done without a multi million dollar budget.
Re:Dumb question here (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. To me, this is just like those JavaScript "password" scripts people used to make, and about as ignorant to the way client-side code works.
I almost want to say some web designer sold this "security" to Hulu as a joke.
Re:I can't understand...Boxee displayed ads perfec (Score:5, Insightful)
And to anyone complaining about having to dance through proxies to watch Hulu internationally, it's for the same reasons. What benefit does Charmin see from advertising toilet paper to people in the Netherlands?
This is where the MBA and Marketing guys are falling down on the job. They should be selling regional ads for international viewers... instead of Charmin, they could sell Nokia ads for Dutch viewers, Weetabix in the UK, and Nutella in Italy, etc...
Re:Brand dilution guys.... (Score:1, Insightful)
Except, of course, that all Hulu content (that I have seen) displays the little Hulu logo in the corner of the screen. My guess is that Boxee doesn't prevent this.
Re:Can you blame them? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:what do you expect? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly their marketing is so clever and hilarious I think it's making many of us forgive their stupid actions with regard to boxee and such.
I mean, come on. They're ALIENS.
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really believe that all of this content is going to get less available over time? Note that this would essentially contradict all of history.
Yeah, don't bother making copies of those documents at the Great Library of Alexandria.
Re:Just More Proof... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is just more proof that the people who run the big media companies not only do not understand technology, but cannot be bothered to learn it either.
There is an old saying: "It is impossible to teach a man something, when his livelihood depends on him not understanding it."
They make their money the old way. If they learn this new way, they realize that their old way is doomed. Thereforefore, they cannot learn the new way.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:1, Insightful)
There will always be "pirates" (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a lot of talk in this thread about "who do they think they're fooling" and many more people saying "people will just crack the code"
You're right, there will be people out there who crack it. But if you look at it from a statistics standpoint there will be far more people who give up or don't want to take the time to crack it or find the pre-made crack. And vastly more people still who won't try because they've heard about the security and there are easier ways for them to get their content.
It's a numbers game. Especially with you're that "guy with the MBA" that was mentioned above. I think it has nothing to do with him not knowing what he's messing with. He doesn't need to know ... and neither do the advertising investors that are paying him gobs of money. They only need to know the statistics he gives them that says the content is "protected"
NOTHING is ever totally secure ... that's common knowledge. But how your security stacks up against your competitors can make the difference between a winning business model and just another also-ran.
Re:It's all about the DMCA (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:5, Insightful)
Riiiiiight.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Honestly, we just want to get the code written and have you leave us alone. But we can't do that.
Instead, we have to follow the rules implemented by management, usually non-IT management. So while the code change itself might be all of 10 minutes, we have to follow Six Sigma, or have all changes go through 3 weeks of requirements gathering, or have to follow some horrible process workflow like the Waterfall model because they read about it in CEO Magazine.
It's management who make your life more difficult. And oddly enough, almost all of them have MBAs...
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Dumb question here (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ad revenue on TV Ad revenue on Hulu (Score:2, Insightful)
Simply put, the ad revenue on Hulu is much, much less than on TV. Sure, it beats piracy (a little money and control over how long your content is on there) but if people were to cancel cable or watch Hulu on their Xboxes more, both cable/satellite providers and the content providers themselves would be unhappy.
Very true.
However, this would seem to be the very definition of how the free market is supposed to work. Customers want Internet based television; prefer it over cable/satellite.
Consumers steadily begin to use the net more. Hulu can then begin to charge more for ads while broadcast TV stations lower their rates.
I would think advertisers would prefer Hulu simply because their ads can not be skipped over and users can't just change the channel during the break. That suggests they can charge more for the ads in such a business model since the ads are more effective. End result, less ad volume (compared to broadcast TV) and happier viewers or the same ad volume with more profits.
It seems the cable and satellite TV providers are the ones that lose here but why should NBC/FOX care about them? The cable providers are already in a favorable position as the access point for new media distribution. If TV as a service goes the way of the dodo then they are free to charge more for Internet access provided they ditch the stupid caps.
As long as content providers keep trying to fight customer demand they will continue to miss out on the revenue opportunities that exist. As for copyright infringement, that'll always be around but they can minimize the impact it has by not driving consumers towards it out of an unwillingness to change.
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:5, Insightful)
What about if your internet goes out and there's jack-crap on TV?
Read a book?
Re:Content Providers' Demands? (Score:3, Insightful)
Bingo. Services like Hulu have to serve two masters, and there's a constant juggle to make sure the content providers are happy in their diluted little world, while ensuring that the "honest" users can still access content with no problem. Considering alternative offerings, Hulu is still aces, far above anything else on the internet, even things like Youtube.
Likely, someone at NBC/Fox went "YEEEAARRRRGGG PIRATES" and some intern at Hulu said "Well, we can do X, bu-" "DO IT NOW." And so it will go.
Re:Don't they want people to use Hulu? (Score:3, Insightful)
With set-top PCs and lots of bandwidth, the distribution and billing problem is solved. We don't need advertising supported television any more.
Let's be generous while discussing:
on iTunes, you can get an episode of Scrubs for $3. That's less than 22 minutes of show; You'd watch 8 minutes of ads for three dollars worth of entertainment, so in essence they're paying you $21.82 / hour to watch ads.
But it gets worse.
Suppose you buy in bulk, and you get longer shows?
A season pass for LOST on iTunes is $50, for 22 ~43 minute episodes, so they're only paying you $8/hour to watch the ads, and that's assuming that those prices are reasonable and not, you know, early adopter premium prices. If everybody bought every episode a la carte, I think things might be very different.
Re:Can you blame them? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hulu is merely owned by the content providers. Even if it's a well-integrated division, the people in charge of that division want it to do well, and better than other divisions. Also, the cable companies are probably quite conservative, so they will wish to keep Hulu on a tight leash. At the same time, Hulu is effectively a well-backed, well-placed tech startup, so they will be relatively liberal, as their owners allow.
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey...as long as you got paid.
Re:Cat & Mouse. (Score:3, Insightful)
Alternatively, they may know that the obfuscation won't work, but may not care.
As an advertising-driven service, all they care about are site hits and views. It's not really in their interest to limit their service in any way, and not in their interest to bolster DVD sales.
Their content providers, however, care lots about piracy. They're probably laying on the pressure to make the Hulu boys tougher on piracy. And as noted, they're probably all advertising graduates.
By doing this, Hulu might just be doing something to appease the content providers ("hey look, we've done all these clever things to stop piracy!"), but not actually give two hoots as to whether it actually works.
Re:I HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE ENTERTAINED! right? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wouldn't say I have a right by any stretch. I don't. These guys provide the content to me at their discretion.
I think what people are "upset" about is the fact that:
1) Companies (Hulu or otherwise) seriously think that they can control HOW someone access their content. Technology or not, you can't force me to listen to a song on the radio anymore than I can force you to play the song I want to hear. You can't force me to listen to that CD I bought in my car vice my house.
2) People were more than happy to access the content via legal means via Hulu. No one WANTS to pirate anything. It's a pain in the ass. A standard non-HD conversion of a tv show without the commercials over bittorrent still takes in the neighborhood of 30 minutes to download on a standard internet connection. God forbid I want something that is more than a few weeks old.
With Hulu I could sit down and watch the shows on my couch with my wife (when the kid was in bed). Now? Not so much.
The absolutely ASININE part is that users were screaming for this for years. For once, it seemed like the media companies actually GOT it. We were naive. Hulu was working on Boxee for the better part of a year if not longer. It wasn't until Boxee started gaining attention that someone said "You mean people aren't watching this stuff on a computer?"
Let's ignore for a minute how fucking stupid that question is. I *AM* (well was) watching it on a pc. It just happened to be hooked up to a television. What possible idiot doesn't have such a grasp of technology that they don't realize that you can hook a computer up to a television? Who, on the grandiose payroll of the media companies, didn't see this coming?
In the end, they DID hurt themselves. Ad revenues are already down. The company I was laid off from was in the business of television advertising. Between DVRs and P2P, you have a choice. Either provide the content and get at least a sliver of revenue or don't get any at all.
Sure, it may be costing you up front to build support for Hulu advertising among the advertisers but once the ball is rolling, it becomes a more viable outlet for advertising.
Here's the thing. Television advertising is a split bag. Local networks sell ads. National networks sell ads. There's a whole business around brokering advertising spots between buyers and the people with the air time. It's a complex machine. Hulu essentially cut out a few layers of that.
In the end, Hulu was a step in the right direction. Boxee was the "killer application" for Hulu. They really did screw themselves.