Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
The Internet Businesses Yahoo! News

Yahoo Pulls the Plug On GeoCities 427

Mike writes "It's official: Yahoo is pulling the plug, and GeoCities is dead. GeoCities had suffered a long and drawn-out battle with its health over the past decade. An antiquated service model and outdated technology are widely blamed for the struggle. An official cause of death, however, has yet to be determined. Awful, eye-punishing graphics, lack of relevancy, and 'lowest-common-denominator design' are believed to have contributed to its demise. GeoCities was 15 years old." There is doubtless a lot of funny and informative stuff on there that's worth saving (not just Jesux, which pudge has now migrated). If some of it belongs to you, perhaps you should move it sometime in the next few months. Update: 04/24 18:10 GMT by T : And if you know some GeoCities page owners who aren't especially computer savvy, you could point out to them how easy it is to slurp down their pages for re-hosting elsewhere.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Yahoo Pulls the Plug On GeoCities

Comments Filter:
  • RIP (Score:5, Funny)

    by daveime ( 1253762 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:41PM (#27696063)

    RIP Geocities, the Friendster of the 90's generation.

    • Re:RIP (Score:5, Insightful)

      by plover ( 150551 ) * on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:47PM (#27696141) Homepage Journal
      After reminiscing about the gaudiness of some of those crappy old pages, I'd have to say they were more like the MySpace of the '90s.
      • Re:RIP (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Kugrian ( 886993 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:24PM (#27696519) Homepage

        I'd agree with the awful .gif's and styles, but they had a lot more going for them than myspace.

        Geocities had a lot of content. A huge amount of useful information. Especially the pre-Yahoo stuff. Many times over the last decade I've ended up on a Geocities website when researching particular subjects (sorry - can't give any examples, but more than a couple dozen times when looking at some obscure stuff).

        This is sad, but bound to happen. For a long while Geocities was the only place hobbyists could spew their knowledge. Now it's all over the place. Hopefully the internet archive can hold on to some of those soon-to-be lost gems.

        • Re:RIP (Score:5, Funny)

          by ausekilis ( 1513635 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:49PM (#27696711)
          Gems like this?
          VF Designer [geocities.com]
          Unfortunately the pain isn't limited to geocities... more pain here [dokimos.org].
          • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

            by Kugrian ( 886993 )

            I used to have a friend who'd clean up after royal events and sift through vomit and random foodstuff and find diamond rings and £10 notes.

            I, personally, used to rummage around a funfair ball-pit and find mobile phones, money, jewelery and other fun tidbits.

          • Re:RIP (Score:5, Funny)

            by WhatAmIDoingHere ( 742870 ) <sexwithanimals@gmail.com> on Thursday April 23, 2009 @09:36PM (#27697029) Homepage
            I had like 14 seizures from that second link, bro.

            Gotta throw a warning up next time.
            • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

              What, this link: http://www.dokimos.org/ajff/ [dokimos.org] ?

              That's not too bad, really. A bit overboard on the accept Jesus graphic, but white text quoting a couple Bible verses, on a black background, with a door and a cat doing a single animation sequence, that's not so bad.

              Oh, you mean what it must look like UNFILTERED! [Bypass privoxy with my light text on dark background enforcement filter that kills background images, turn on scripting, toggle animation from once to enabled, refresh.]

              OK, NOW I see what you mean!

        • Re:RIP (Score:4, Informative)

          by fuzzix ( 700457 ) <flippy@example.com> on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:52PM (#27696727) Journal

          Geocities had a lot of content. A huge amount of useful information. Especially the pre-Yahoo stuff. Many times over the last decade I've ended up on a Geocities website when researching particular subjects (sorry - can't give any examples, but more than a couple dozen times when looking at some obscure stuff).

          This [geocities.com] was in my browser history.

          Bit outdated, but indicative of the fact that useful stuff resides on geocities.

          Oh, just remembered zx32 [geocities.com] which I used to use back in my Windows days.

        • Re:RIP (Score:5, Insightful)

          by nametaken ( 610866 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:58PM (#27696759)

          Here's where everyone neglects the fact that Geoshitties was a huge lead-up to the blog.

          People with no interest in html, css, hosting, dns, etc. want to brain-dump on the intarwebs too. Geocities did it first, now you go start a blog.

          • Geocities was a progression for me as they later allowed SSI. This moved me over from frame based layout. From there I quickly hopped over to my own domain with PHP and was totally geeked out with include_once()!

            I went back to the site and added meta-redirect to forward people to my blog. Must check my server logs and see if anyone comes that way.

        • Re:RIP (Score:5, Insightful)

          by sortius_nod ( 1080919 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:59PM (#27696765) Homepage

          Unfortunately like all good resources, diamonds in the rough. You have to wade through so much shit that you end up almost giving up. Almost... then you find the gem, and cherish it.

          While it is sad to see it gone, the horrid gaudy gif sites will not be missed.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by zotz ( 3951 )

          They made a TOS change somewhere back in the distant past that resulted in my pulling down most of my info from my spot in TheTropics.

          http://web.archive.org/web/19990128020615/www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1298/ [archive.org]

          I don't remember the details at this time.

          drew

        • Re:RIP (Score:5, Informative)

          by biobogonics ( 513416 ) on Friday April 24, 2009 @12:06AM (#27697977)

          Geocities had a lot of content. A huge amount of useful information. Especially the pre-Yahoo stuff.

          Yes. For example websites devoted to the internals of GW-Basic. I don't write new programs in it, but I still convert old programs written in it. Also, the early versions of G77 for Windows are there plus documentation plus collections of compiled libraries.

          A bigger bite is for those of us whose ISPs were the baby Bells. I still have an old web page that is essentially prodigy. 15 MB limit, one level, browser based updating and file creation, but it's ad free and still there. More recent customers found their personal web pages are hosted on Geocities, complete with their icky ad overlays.

          Yahoo managed to crap up the e-mail side too, when they migrated their customers to "Yahoo mail". I pay for e-mail as part of my internet access. If I want to read e-mail on the web, it comes with ads.

          So I'm not entirely sorry that Geocities is going away. And as bad as AT&T and Yahoo are, both are far better than the local cable company.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward

          I learned HTML from Geocities.

          With earnest and a renewed sense of nostalgia, RIP Geocities.

    • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:43PM (#27696661)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • good memories (Score:5, Interesting)

    by f1vlad ( 1253784 ) * Works for Slashdot on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:44PM (#27696093) Homepage Journal
    Nothing lost but sad. I remember those days of geocities prospering. But I was more tripod.com guy than geocities. Hope tripod.com will live for longer. I am actually using it still for something.
  • The Neighborhoods (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kingbilly ( 993754 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:46PM (#27696125)
    My favorite part about Geocities, in 1996, was the themed Neighborhoods. The internet seemed so much smaller back then, like the number of pages could have fit into the multiple neighborhoods of Geocities. RIP Times Square
    • Thanks for the good times, Athens/Acropolis. /Is it sad that I still remember my old address?
      • by Hadlock ( 143607 )

        Realm/TimesSquare/4350 bay-bee.
         
        The original site of Kramerica Industries. Or something like that. And then there was another page of the animated gif of the guy walking, stops and pees, but tiled on the background with no text. The early internet was the best.

    • AWWW... I forgot about that! [nostalgia sets in]

      I cut my teeth on html using Geoshitties, 'round 97. What a mess, but god bless the free tinkering space.

    • Re:The Neighborhoods (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Eil ( 82413 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:10PM (#27697185) Homepage Journal

      My favorite part about Geocities, in 1996, was the themed Neighborhoods.

      I had SiliconVally/8043 over a decade ago. Even back then it bothered me that they didn't really do much with the Neighborhood concept other than to categorize sites. I always thought it could have been something that allowed people to network and find others with similar tastes and ideas. Basically a poor-man's version of social networking sites that are all the rage today.

      I've got to be getting old, there were so many really good ideas back then that got about 90% of the way towards the major Internet trends that we see today only to completely fall over into obscurity well before their time.

      The internet seemed so much smaller back then, like the number of pages could have fit into the multiple neighborhoods of Geocities.

      I used to have a copy of the Internet Yellow Pages. A physical book. The same size and shape as a telephone yellow-pages. At the time it was printed, it listed most of the relevant sites devoted to a particular subject and it was actually pretty darn thorough. Most of the URLs back then were .edu, .gov, or .net. Only a few .com and almost no .org. There were a few entries for FTP and Gopher sites scattered here and there as well. Good times. I wonder if I still have that book stashed away somewhere, the Internet was such an incredibly different place back then.

    • Re:The Neighborhoods (Score:5, Interesting)

      by rob1980 ( 941751 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @10:45PM (#27697417)
      I was in TimesSquare/Arcade myself. For as much as Geocities gets knocked on, back in 1996 that was one of the places a 16 year old kid could get 2MB on the web to call his own. It was my start in writing HTML code and now I'm a full-time web developer. RIP.
  • Advertisement (Score:5, Interesting)

    by enderjsv ( 1128541 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:47PM (#27696143)

    I don't remember much about Geocities, but I do remember that I absolutely HATED having their advertisements on my page.

    It's funny, though, if you look at MySpace or Facebook now they're absolutely cluttered with flashy, obtrusive advertisements and I don't give it much thought. Guess it goes to show, you can get used to anything.

    • by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:50PM (#27696191) Journal

      The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

      Prodigy tried the flashy nasty ad thing before AOL and was pulverized for it. AOL made a whole business plan around it.

    • Speak for yourself (Score:5, Insightful)

      by pimpimpim ( 811140 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:02PM (#27696307)
      I hate the guts out of myspace and facebook. Seriously. There is no content. For example, I search for a new 'hip' band, so they only have a myspace page. Now, try to find the band biography or past tourdates. You won't find it. Instead, you will see a list of pictures of 'friends' of the band, about whom you couldn't care less. In that respect, Geocities actuallý was better, because at least you had a chance (even if it was small) of finding useful information there.
      • by DavidD_CA ( 750156 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @09:10PM (#27696851) Homepage

        It's the band's fault if their MySpace/Facebook page doesn't have any good information, tour dates, or anything else that might be useful.

        I've seend plenty of excellent band pages. Unfortunately, the sucky ones outweigh the good ones, but don't blame MySpace.

        (There's plenty of other things to hate MySpace for.)

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        I'd say Myspace has been a great thing for local bands. It's extremely easy to hear a few of their songs and sample their music, and it's also extremely easy to see when they'll be playing a show and where.

        Myspace isn't really designed for them to hold a long boring biography or a history of their tour dates. It also doesn't have a nice section for them to sell their merchandise either like t-shirts and cd's. Also a forum / message board is missing for fans to talk with each other.

        I think myspace is more

      • by Malc ( 1751 )

        Myspace has been very good for checking out a friend's recommendation before buying a CD. The samples bands put up are way better than the 30s clips from Amazon.com. The rest is just wasted bandwidth. Facebook is very good for keeping in touch with people in other ways, if you have a set of friends that use it like that and aren't mindlessly throwing sheep at you, etc.

      • Some of the bands that I've recently discovered only announce their gigs by posting it on their myspace page, where it quickly gets obliterated by the 'thanks for the add! xoxox' crap. Even worse, some have the bizarre practice of announcing their gigs to people only on their friends list :/

        Eugh.

    • Re:Advertisement (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mackil ( 668039 ) <movieNO@SPAMmoviesoundclips.net> on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:02PM (#27696315) Homepage Journal

      I don't remember much about Geocities, but I do remember that I absolutely HATED having their advertisements on my page.

      An old trick we used back in the day was to open a noscript tag, but not close it. This kept all the ads from showing up. Of course you couldn't run javascript on it from there, but in 1998, who cared.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      they're absolutely cluttered with flashy, obtrusive advertisements and I don't give it much thought.

      More likely, you're just using Adblock like most Slashdotters and never even see them.

      • by kcornia ( 152859 )

        Having never seen an advertisement on FB, I was wondering what the hell the original post was talking about on Facebook. Your mention of AdBlock clears it up though, thanks AdBlock!

      • Yeah, but the point was, I didn't want other people who visited my page to see these ads. I wasn't bothered that I would see these ads on other people's pages. It bothered me that I couldn't control everything people saw on my page. Adblock is great, but only a small handful of people use it.
        • That's what you get when you use a free hosting service; after all, they have to get their revenue from somewhere. However, if you're willing to spend a little money, take a look at the service mentioned in my .sig. It's worked fine for me for several years now, as well as a number of my friends. YMMV, of course.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Chris Burke ( 6130 )

        More likely, you're just using Adblock like most Slashdotters and never even see them.

        By odds, sure. All I use though is Flashblock and disabling just annoying javascript features not the whole thing, basically the stuff that can actually get in my way but leaving whatever degree of visually obtrusive ads remain. I can really just block them out 99% of the time, not even registering them. Largely from browsing the web in that time before enlightened browsers, but after animated gifs.

        I remember reading on

    • The Geocities ads were why I started running the Proxomitron as my ad filter in the first place. Amazingly, even without updates it's gotten more effective over time: since its Javascript ad filter is fairly broad, and everyone uses Javascript to serve ads these days, I couldn't tell you how much advertising the typical Myspacer or Facebook page has.

      (I couldn't have used AdBlock instead: this predates Phoenix itself, much less the addons that have made it popular.)

  • Meh.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anrego ( 830717 ) * on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:48PM (#27696153)

    For all the griping people do.. it wasn't that bad

    And it's visual design tool really was amazing.

    Users didn't need to worry about arranging stuff into tables.. you could just drag your graphic where ever you wanted .. or put text anywhere.. etc.

    Sure, it let a lot of garbage leak onto the Internet.. but it also let people with something interesting to contribute an easy way of doing so.

    And lets face it.. was the output of a geocities website designed with the visual designer that much different than most of the myspace pages you see? (that isn't an endorsement for myspace..). If you have interesting content.. the design matters a lot less (and again.. not saying that myspace contains interesting content).

    • It was the advertising that really sucked. You maybe could have built a decent looking page, but then you have this huge floating ugly thing kind of in the middle of it. Maybe it would have been tolerable if they'd made it a small frame at the bottom or something, but as it was, the advertising made every page look worse.

      Geocities is still the number 2 search result on Google if you do a search for "free web page"
    • Re:Meh.. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by TinBromide ( 921574 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @09:42PM (#27697061)
      I think that a lot of the early wikipedia contributors came from the non-crap geocities authors. (back when it had more information about the star wars universe than it had about the real life space universe) While we don't miss that time period, (well, i do), I think that the urge to contribute to the internet (via geocities) was the same urge that created and grew wikipedia and web 2.0.

      If I had to write Geocities eulogy, it would be: "Geocities paved the way for Web 2.0"

      Take from that what you will, a lot of web 2.0 was "Hey! Look at me!" type crap that we equate with myspace, youtube, and Web 2.0, it was the original place where someone could contribute to the internet for free.
  • Too Bad (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nmb3000 ( 741169 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:50PM (#27696189) Journal

    As somebody who learned HTML and Javascript with GeoCities, that's really too bad. Yes, GeoCities is the home of the stereotypical mid 90's "home page" with animated gifs and background MIDI music but I still occasionally come across very worthwhile information on GeoCities via Google and in terms of reliable free hosting with pretty unobtrusive ads it was pretty good. It seems somewhat rash to just shut it down outright.

    I wonder if there isn't some way they could just take a snapshot of the domain as it is right now, and then keep that online. Give site owners the ability to delete their site, but no longer allow editing or uploading. That would be pretty low maintenance and certainly they still receive ad revenue from it, but maybe not enough to cover costs.

    • by zlogic ( 892404 )

      I think most interesting Geocities pages are already backed up to http://web.archive.org/ [archive.org]

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:53PM (#27696219)

    "Awful, eye-punishing graphics, lack of relevancy, and 'lowest-common-denominator design' are believed to have contributed to it's demise."

    Sounds like myspace

  • Progress? (Score:5, Funny)

    by clinko ( 232501 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:56PM (#27696241) Journal

    GeoCities:
    Learn HTML, post Animated Gifs, Blare Midis

    MySpace:
    post Animated Gifs, Blare Mp3s

    YouTube:
    Blare "Animated" Videos with Sound

    Twitter:
    Blare

  • by gadabyte ( 1228808 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @07:57PM (#27696247)

    i hosted my first website, a WW II history site, on geocities - before the ad requirements got out of hand. when their ads got completely obnoxious, i asked for a way to keep the ad in a top frame, or any way to keep it from covering my content, but was told to pony up cash.

    random ads over WW II pictures, especially some of the pictures of fallen soldiers I had up, didn't sit well with me - so I ponied up cash for a real webhost, and didn't look back.

    perhaps i'm just too good at holding a grudge, but i'm glad they're dead.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:37PM (#27696603)

      especially some of the pictures of fallen soldiers I had up, didn't sit well with me...perhaps i'm just too good at holding a grudge, but i'm glad they're dead.

      The beauty of context.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by gadabyte ( 1228808 )

        *cringe*

        that's some pretty awful englishfail.

        oh, that button below says "preview," not "impatiently wait for submit button to appear." now i get it.

  • Wow, MS must like it when ever someone running a lot of *nix(FreeBSD) servers switches to Windows or in this case, drops out. Now they can report being more successful because they own a larger percentage of websites.

  • Where will we go for our fix of lousy, horribly formatted websites from 1997?

    I feel bad for this sucker [peopleconnectionblog.com]:

    WHAT A SHAMBLES & A POOR SHOW. NO ONE WANTS TO KNOW EITHER. FORTUNATELY I SAVED MY WEBPAGE & TRANSFERRED IT TO GEOCITIES.

    Link Here: http ://geocities.yahoo.com/v/gcp_choose/

    Real easy to do a simple webpage. With more time I think this could be better than aol.

  • by phoxix ( 161744 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:06PM (#27696359)
    I'd like to thank 'em giving even the tiniest bit of free webspace when nobody else did.

    The reason we cann all remember Geocities was because there was neat stuff on it!!! Geocities was home to all the quirky people who had all sorts of goodies to post on the web, and no other means to do so.
    • by Wuhao ( 471511 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:29PM (#27696559)

      Ain't it the truth. Geocities attracted some of the most eye-gougingly terrible amateur designs, but shit, a lot of those people went on to lose the colorblindness, but kept the technical know-how they gained with their first little hobby site. I certainly did.

      • by Kenshin ( 43036 )

        Totally. My original websites are (mercifully) lost to the void, but I learned a WHOLE lot through trial and error in those GeoCities days.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Not to mention the fact that back then the web was NEW to so many people! Shiny, fascinating and NEW! I had a page that listed my comic art collection. Many of the guy's fans contacted me thanking me for it. I became obsessed with tracking down and documenting EVERY, SINGLE, SOLITARY thing that he'd ever had published. The artist actually contacted me and asked if he could mirror it on his site when he got one a couple of years later. He actually said that he didn't remember half of the items on the list.

      An

  • WOW... Jesusx.

    First time I've ever heard of it. Interesting, and definitely unique... I never would've thought of such a thing as a "Christian" based OS. I wonder if they ever got it off the ground.
  • by rizzo5 ( 574275 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:20PM (#27696485)
    I was working at yahoo in the early days and I got the job of working to integrate the stuff geocities was doing with some of our stuff. The moment I met them I was convinced these were the wrong sort of people to be working for yahoo. They developed on Windows by Crom! When anyone asks when yahoo started going downhill I point to the GeoCities acquisition.
  • If like me you want to make a backup of your site but only had the free account sans FTP httrack [httrack.com] may be useful.

  • <blink>This Comment Is Still Under Construction</blink>
    (yes, even after 15 years)

    And this is a spinning GIF logo. Your browser is just too tasteful to display it.

  • by CrazyJim1 ( 809850 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:41PM (#27696647) Journal
    I have a few websites on Geocities because it is a free web hosting solution. Anyone have a suggestion as to where I should go?
  • by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @08:49PM (#27696709)

    As if millions of internet web pages suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened....

  • Every time I see the word "Geocities" I'm shocked that it's still around. I guess that's over now.

  • I wonder if they'll see off the domain name? Heck, why not sell it all off to someone interested in keeping it going? Unfortunately, I'll bet the market for virtual real estate is as bleak as it is for "real" real estate.
  • My first web page was on Geocities - http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/1928 [geocities.com] . Page info says it was last modified 10/17/1995 10:29:40 PM - over 13 years ago. It's a page of links to other pages on Noam Chomsky, because the main page out on the net at that time was down at that time. Every link is now broken (except perhaps the Usenet one). I even have gopher links in there. Can't say the net has improved much since then - the level of intelligent discussion has lessened, so in most ways it is worse.
  • by jimbudncl ( 1263912 ) on Thursday April 23, 2009 @09:21PM (#27696923)
    If you don't maintain it, they will leave.
  • Seems like every GeoCities page is coming back:

    Sorry, Service Temporarily Unavailable. The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later.

    Additionally, a 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

    Please check the URL for proper spelling and capitalization. If you're having trouble locating a destination on Yahoo!, try visiting the Yahoo! home page
  • Back in the Day... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by denmarkw00t ( 892627 ) on Friday April 24, 2009 @12:21AM (#27698049) Homepage Journal

    ...I ran a Pokemon fansite on Geocities which offered midis of the game's music, tips (really just reading Tips&Tricks and putting it on my site, kind of like blogs), information on the different versions and ROMs of the Gameboy games. I got my first Cease and Desist letter, ever, from Nintendo. Because of my Geocities site.

    Geocities, you will forever be in my heart.

  • by Punto ( 100573 ) <puntobNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday April 24, 2009 @01:34AM (#27698421) Homepage

    Who cares about the ugly designs? They were "ugly" because people actually had the freedom to upload whatever they wanted, and who goes to the internet to watch "pretty" things anyway, especially 15 years ago, when you couldn't find 2 browsers that would show a page the same way?

    For the younger generation (I was 13), who hadn't been to college, we only had a dial-up connection and no way to know about ftp, gopher, usenet, etc; geocities gave us a way to experiment and learn how the internet worked.

    Today everything is trapped inside something else (facebook, myspace, blogging platforms, news sites), does anyone understand what happens with their data after they publish it? where does it go, where does it come from when it shows up on their browser?

  • by canonymous ( 1445409 ) on Friday April 24, 2009 @02:09AM (#27698617)
    They can't shut it down, my site is still under construction!
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday April 24, 2009 @12:10PM (#27702973)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

Two can Live as Cheaply as One for Half as Long. -- Howard Kandel

Working...