220-mph Solar-Powered Train Proposed In Arizona 416
Mike writes "An ambitious Arizona company has recently revealed plans for a solar powered bullet train that will streak across the desert at 220 mph, traveling from Tuscon to Phoenix in 30 minutes flat. Proposed by Solar Bullet LLC, the system comprises a series of tracks that would serve stations including Chandler, Casa Grande, Red Rock, and Marana, and may one day be extended to Flagstaff and Nogales. The train would require 110 megawatts of electricity, which would be generated by solar panels mounted above the tracks." Local coverage of the plan takes a harder look, noting that Solar Bullet LLC is two guys who are now asking local governments in the towns at which such a train would potentially stop for $35K for a legal and feasibility study. Total cost is estimated at $27B.
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Monorail, Monorail, Monorail (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How much for the 60 mph version? (Score:3, Informative)
We've got a 75MPH version. We call it I10.
Re:How much?!?! (Score:4, Informative)
110 MW per train sounds like too much. The typical power output for a locomotive seems to be roughly 5000 HP (http://www.ecoworld.com/blog/2008/05/23/ges-4500-hp-locomotive/). Even if we double that number, since it a high speed train, 10 000 HP = 7 456 998 watts. It is only 7.5 MW. You could power more than 10 of these suckers with 110MW
Re:This is what the "new green economy" is all abo (Score:2, Informative)
Thank you for sending our US dollars to your comrades in al-Qaeda-financing Saudi Arabia, "patriot".
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Then there is that time thing. It's not making the trip in 30 minutes if it stops 5 times between the two cities. Maybe they are thinking of express trips interspersed with trips that stop? The article doesn't say.
But, the article DOES say. Did you mistake the summary for the article? What you're reading now is a comment if you're still confused.
From said article:
With four tracks, the innermost two would be reserved for nonstop travel, going 116 miles in a half hour. The outer two tracks would allow a one-hour trip, with stops slated for Chandler, Maricopa, Casa Grande, Eloy, Red Rock and Marana.
Let us do the math. (Score:5, Informative)
They claim the cost will be 27 billion dollars. If they make 100 dollars per rider it will take how many riders?
If they build it using bond money you will have to pay the interest as well. It would take 270,000,000 riders and that is without interest. So if you had a million riders a year it would only take 270 years to pay it off.
So I would say that it is insane. Yes you could charge more for the ticket but I was using $100 as the profit on the ticket. You will still have to pay for up keep and other operating expenses.
Re:How much?!?! (Score:5, Informative)
The TGV (french electric high speed train) runs 199mph in passenger service on many routes as of 2009 (some older routes are limited to only 186mph, like in the dark ages, sheesh!).
The trains used there pull somewhere around 9MW to do 200mph, and because to go faster the force required increases as a square of the speed, I'd imagine that the last 20mph being proposed could bump the required figure up to about 12MW per trainset. 100MW would allow for a couple of trains in the station, and a couple en route, so the number looks about right to me when transmission losses are taken into account.
C
Re:You've gotta love solar power... (Score:3, Informative)
... as long as you live in the desert. This is a great idea, if they pull it off. Clean, reliable, and fast as hell. While it's not (well, probably not) feasible in 'regular' climates (like Ontario, or the prairies, or even the mid west) where sunshine isn't a guarantee - it could be a step in the right direction for self-sufficient transportation infrastructure. When you push the technology envelope, everyone wins. Now, how long before bureaucracy clouds over this idea?
Define "regular" climates? Deserts [wikipedia.org] make up between 20% (hot) to 35% (hot and cold) percent of the worlds land mass. I would consider either of those numbers to be pretty "regular". Having lived in both climates myself, we need to stop thinking as either of them being the "norm". "Think globally, act locally" has never meant more.
Re:This is what the "new green economy" is all abo (Score:4, Informative)
You must be addressing the idiots that don't want us to use our own gas and oil natural resources, of which we have plenty, if only we were allowed to get it.
Re:Interesting (Score:1, Informative)
Seriously, though, strict monetary cost is a misleading metric for mass transit. There are other costs, like inconvenience, time, etc that make a big difference to potential users.
What you're talking about is covered by the economics concept of utility. It takes into account that different things have different values to different people and helps explain why someone would pay $1 for a 1 in 10 million chance to win a $1MM but won't pay $250K for a 1 in 2 chance to win $1MM (excepting possibly gamblers who tend to view money with absolute utility regardless of amount). The $1MM has more utility than the odds indicate when compared to $1 but less when compared to $250K.
When applied to things like you're talking about the convenience factor for instance adds to utility while not affecting the cost or intrinsic value of the service.
Re:It will never happen... (Score:3, Informative)
Population density of New York City - 2,181.6/sq mi [wikipedia.org]
Sure it doesn't work in Wyoming, but there are parts of the US with much higher population densities (like the area that the MTA serves) that are still mostly shit.
Given Enough Thrust (Score:1, Informative)
Even trains can fly.
Very much like the swine flew.
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
I remember it being defective, but not solar powered.
It was solar powered. They couldn't cut its power because 'it was solar powered'.
"Solar Power!? When will people learn!?"
Ironically, the out of control monorail stopped briefly because Springfield had a solar eclipse, and then sped off again when the eclipse ended.
Mod parent down (Score:2, Informative)
You're wrong. They avoid the "existing train route" because it only exists in your imagination.
Re:This is what the "new green economy" is all abo (Score:3, Informative)
How about linking the East Coast to the East Coast?
The Northeast Corridor is basically at capacity. We're eventually going to need to add another mainline.
South of DC, the NEC is f-ing terrible. Amtrak don't own the tracks, and on a bad day, it can take 6-8 hours to make it from DC to Hampton Roads. The line from Richmond to Newport News is particularly bad, given that it's single-tracked, carries lots of freight, and only runs 2 Amtrak trains per day in each direction.
(While I'm complaining about Hampton Roads, I might as well add that our other public transportation options appear to have been designed to intentionally suck. The area's geography makes it a *great* candidate for commuter rail, given that you could effectively reach most of the population with one rail line, and a few well-placed buses.)
High-speed rail in the US is also made unnecessarily difficult by the fact that the FRA judges the safety of rail vehicles based upon their weight. This makes most European rolling stock impossible to use on US tracks -- the Acela has been compared to a tank on rails, due to its weight.
Re:110MW == 150000hp (Score:3, Informative)
Wikipedia is usually useful. I tend to use this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_373 [wikipedia.org] but feel free to substitute a high-speed train from your own country. That train is 12MW, and isn't especially fast any more.
I don't know, but presumably the full 12MW is only drawn at full power, while accelerating etc.
Re:Dumb idea. (Score:1, Informative)
Actually, Arizona was quite fit for human habitation before the twentieth century. The protected "bowl" in which Tucson sits has been continuously inhabited (documented) longer than any other place in North America.
Humans have driven the average daytime surface temperature up about ten degrees in the valley where Phoenix sits, much of the increase attributed to covering the ground with concrete and eliminating natural water.
Economists who, some decades ago, took oral histories of people living in Southern Arizona around a hundred years ago suggest adequate water and lower temperatures so that life was pleasant before air conditioning.
So, you're right. Everyone, get the hell out of Arizona and maybe nature will make everything right again in another hundred years.