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Comments: 258 +- Technology: Craigslist Fires Back Over Adult Services Accusations on Monday May 18 2009, @02:56PM
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Craigslist has fired back at South Carolina Attorney General Henry McMaster in an open letter defending the company's policies and procedures surrounding the much debated "adult services." Stating not only the measures that have been taken to minimize illegal behavior, CEO Jim Buckmaster suggests that Craigslist is doing much better at minimizing questionable ads than other major competitors like Yahoo!, Google, and others. "Mr McMaster, I strongly recommend you reconsider and retract your remarks, and positively affirm that you have no intention of launching criminal investigations aimed at any of these upstanding companies, because in truth none of them are deserving of such treatment. [...] We're willing to accept our share of criticism, but wrongfully accusing craigslist of criminal misconduct is simply beyond the pale. We would very much appreciate an apology at your very earliest convenience. As I'm sure would all of the other fine companies whose executives you've called out as criminals."
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The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with politicians is, well, that they exist as a profession.
Instead of having a dedicated, small group of individuals in charge of everything (leading to ridiculous situations like this, where they posture for the electorate), why not have anyone be as involved in government as they wish? [metagovernment.org]
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
Because part of a government's responsibility is to protect those who can't protect themselves, and to prevent a tyranny of the majority.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Interesting)
Spoken like a true member of the majority, who doesn't know what its like to be surrounded by people who will discriminate againt you at any chance.
I'm a non-christian living where there's a church on virtually every block. Don't talk to me about 'religion' and 'minority rule'
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Spoken like a true malcontent
Ah, weasel words. "Malcontent" basically equals "he who does not agree with me."
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
Uuuhhh....In the 1920s the majority didn't really see much wrong for hanging blacks folks if they so much as looked at a white woman sideways. At the very least they all agreed that treating them like children that were too stupid to do anything but be their hired help. So I wouldn't be too much on "yay majority" unless you are DAMNED sure that you are on the "right" side of that line. I mean look how the majority treated anybody that even looked KINDA like an Arab after 9/11. With majority rule you can quickly become the minority, just look at history. The Irish, the Chinese, Black, Oriental,etc. You could be accepted one day and a target the next.
As someone who has been treated like shit by authority simply because i was a long haired white guy that listened to Motown and played music with a bunch of black guys allow me to say no thanks. To quote the lead singer Charles everybody should get to feel what it is like to be "the nigger at the Klan rally" at least once in their lives. I got to feel it from the whites because of my long hair and choice of friends, and I would always feel it when we would first walk into an all black club that we had never played at. You would have thought i would have gotten better treatment from the whites, but they always wanted trouble. Charles could always diffuse it with the black crowds by throwing his arm around me and announcing "Haven't y'all heard of affirmative action? This is our very own token white boy!" which would always get a laugh and then everything would be cool.
But never forget with majority rules THEY get to decide when you are "the nigger at the Klan rally" NOT you. It is bad enough when all you have to worry about is getting rousted by the cops or getting a few bruises. But as we have seen too often in the past it don't take much for majority rules to descend into mob rules. No thanks.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
With the ridiculous idea that everybody is going to reach a consensus out of good will and love for their fellow man.
Good luck with that.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Its not really ironic, its just one of the few places where there are groups of people with the exact same mindset and who have dedicated their lives to the same exact thing.
Not surprising then that they reach similar consensus about various issues, as they don't really think for themselves, they just interpret whatever religious text they use and give it their best shot.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say it's more to do with fear. Keep people afraid and they'll adhere to some text's words. It's not that people are born believing in god and wanting to do good in "his" name, it's that they are brainwashed into fearing an invisible man who watches everything you do.
It's essentially the same as normal society, except in the society at large you can fall on two sides of the fence: those that fear the law enough not to commit a crime, and those that don't. Replace law with god and you've got a religious commune.
So no, they don't govern via "meta governance", it's merely fear of doing the "wrong" thing according to their texts. Which really means people don't want to go against a central figure who interprets their text for them.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
To judge from the history of mankind, we shall be compelled to conclude that the fiery and destructive passions of war reign in the human breast with much more powerful sway than the mild and beneficent sentiments of peace; and that to model our political systems upon speculations of lasting tranquility would be to calculate on the weaker springs of human character
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 34, January 4, 1788
Sorry, but I have to agree with wjousts. The belief that:
1.) Everyone will reach a consensus out of good will,
2.) That an unfettered "majority rules" system will not oppress the minority,
3.) That mankind is not selfish,
Is somewhat delusional.
Unfettered Democracy is tyrannical by it's very nature. Which is why our Founding Father's discarded that notion.
I will not say our current system of government is the best, but is closer towards that goal than 51% of the majority telling the remaining 49% what to do.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Another poster has said this before, but unfettered democracy is just two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And human rights. Good to know that fucks like you couldn't sway judges and politicians during the 60s in regards to the "colored problem".
Those uppity black folk sure did show whitey a thing or two didn't they? What special interest group got interracial marriage approved? I sure remember the majority against it, seems like a "special interest" held up HUMAN FUCKING RIGHTS nicely.
Go back to your Fox New talk points fuckface.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
I was arguing that for some reason, the US federal govt. is not enforcing one of its few actual constitutional powers by not securing our border. They are not regulating immigration nor enforcing the immigration laws, and were actually trying against the majority of what the US citizenry wanted, by trying to give illegal immigrants amnesty under which rules, even more of the families could come over here...thus overloading social services, schools and ER rooms more than they already are.
Civil rights have nothing to do with trying to enforce laws regulating immigrations and proper protocol to follow to become a US citizen.
Nice strawman.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Funny)
It's not just that. As world's second oldest profession, they have a lot in common with the oldest profession. Politicians and whores go together like, well, like Spitzer and Dupré!
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
Because then we'd get the exact same system, where those who thirst for political power get it?
The only difference is the routes used to acquire the power (or prestige, or whatever you want to call it).
True political power in an elected government doesn't come from having people vote for you, by the way. It comes from shaping what the people want in their elected officials, and what they vote on.
In the "open source government" model, you'll have informal power structures where those who want to be in charge, and have the tools necessary to get there, will rise to positions of power and asymmetrical influence.
Government, and administration of government, is much different than open-source software. It's a lot more expansive, and the rewards for gaming the system are far, far greater than with OSS.
I believe 100% that government should be open (in the sense it should be 100% transparent). I do not believe it should be open in terms of access to power... that way lies anarchy and abuse.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem with politicians is, well, that they exist as a profession.
I agree. Serving in the legislature should be like jury duty, not a career or a way to get rich.
-jcr
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
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Me Thinks . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Me Thinks . . . (Score:5, Funny)
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Important fact about McMaster (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Important fact about McMaster (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially when that free service is servicing the oldest profession; you know, the one that isn't going to go away no matter how illegal you make it.
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Good for them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Call it a "hunch"... (Score:5, Funny)
Like I said, it's just a hunch.
Re:Call it a "hunch"... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Call it a "hunch"... (Score:5, Funny)
For example, I have a "hunch" that you are a complete moron. I don't "know" you are, but my gut tells me you are.
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Re: (Score:3)
Along the same lines, "it is believed to" and "some people say" as seen on Faux.
Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves... (Score:5, Interesting)
... when they refused to grow a pair and claim First Amendment protection, not to mention the safe-harbor provision of the CDA. Paternalistic, moralizing governors and DAs have no Constitutional basis to object to anything Craigslist was doing, and the company should have told them to STFU and GBTW.
But instead they tried to "negotiate," "compromise," and otherwise find a middle ground with religiously-motivated censors and nanny-statists.
Yeah. That always works. Because those sorts of people always go away and leave you in peace once you give in to their demands. <rolleyes>
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
... when they refused to grow a pair and claim First Amendment protection, not to mention the safe-harbor provision of the CDA. Paternalistic, moralizing governors and DAs have no Constitutional basis to object to anything Craigslist was doing, and the company should have told them to STFU and GBTW.
But instead they tried to "negotiate," "compromise," and otherwise find a middle ground with religiously-motivated censors and nanny-statists.
Yeah. That always works. Because those sorts of people always go away and leave you in peace once you give in to their demands. <rolleyes>
Ah. So, you're calling Craigslist out for trying to be civil. Good man! We need more people flying right off the deep end without any sense of negotiation. We also need more stereotyping, darnit, because without that, we might be seen as a serious culture! We have to preserve our l33t, underground status as overreacting outsiders whom nobody should try to understand because we get in huge screaming fits over what the other 90% of the planet just doesn't give a rat's ass about!
Shame on you, Craigslist! Shame on you for trying to be civil! Next time somebody looks at you funny, break his/her nose to restore the balance!
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Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Interesting)
To me, it sounds like you're advocating reasoning with people that may well be unreasonable. Embarking on that is like arguing with pigs.
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Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
By attempting to reason with unreasonable people and failing, you can more easily demonstrate to the rest of the world that they're unreasonable.
This is handy when you're dealing with, say, an elected official.
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Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of it may also be that people who have lived for so long fighting a particular cause end up being more attached to the fight than the cause itself, and as soon as it looks like their way of life is threatened, they try to do things which encourage the fight to continue.
In this case, however, I feel it's a much baser motivation. Like a shark smelling blood, this guy decided he could have a little PR feeding frenzy to fuel his gubernatorial run. Silly AG, don't you know that a well-educated populace would never fall for such a thing?
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Re:Well-Educated Populace? (Score:3, Insightful)
Where is this mythical well-educated populace? The average person seems to be deeply ignorant, uninterested in anything remotely political most of the time, and regularly falls for the outright lies made by many politicians when they are trying to get elected, but isn't motivated enough to call them on it after they win and fail to follow through.
The average person is incredibly stupid and uneducated. Quite frankly, any system that relies on ignorant, uneducated people electing politicians based on their un
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:4, Insightful)
The sign of a good compromise is when both sides are unhappy. Just because you have the right to free speech, it doesn't always mean it is in your best interests to use it all the time. People are complaining about something even though it is in your rights you can always choose to back down too. Or are you the guy who never lets some one in front of you when the lanes are merging in the road.
Putting your self fully in the firing line. Espectially with "religiously-motivated censors and nanny-statists" is always a big fight. If they see that you can at least meet them half way they tend to back off a lot, so they can focus on the next big evil. Sure you not in the clear there will be some point where you need to draw the line. However to keep things running smooth it is easier to compromise.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Craigslist has the support of the people. Why wouldn't they? It's free, has no ads, and always works as promised. There are no ulterior motives, Craig isn't looking to get wealthy. The government shutting down or censoring Craigslist would be the fast path to a miniature revolt. I don't see any elected official actually doing anything to it.
Besides, it's not like Craigs list has given up its first amendment rights. If they ever wanted to, they could use them in a court of law. My guess is they just wanted t
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:4, Funny)
Craigslist has the support of the people. Why wouldn't they? It's free, has no ads, and always works as promised.
If it really had no ads, I don't think that could be described as "working as promised"... ;-P
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Sue'im for slander (Score:5, Interesting)
If he wrote it down, sue him for libel, too. It's pretty obvious that saying your business is a criminal enterprise that endangers its customers' lives would be damaging to your business, and there seems to be plenty of evidence showing that it is better run than many unmentioned competitors.
Craig's List Alternatives (Score:5, Funny)
So what are some other sites that the AG should try to take down for prostitution?
Purely for sake of argument of course. cough cough
Excuse me, Mr. AG (Score:5, Interesting)
But I doubt your state has exhausted its backlog of murders, rapes, armed robberies, child molestation cases, etc. Until you do, here's a polite suggestion: get your fucking priorities straight you worthless politician.
I swear, the fatal flaw of democracy is that it relies on the public to make the highest office holders do their job and not just use the office as a means of personal advancement. At least under a monarchy, the king could bitch slap a guy like this for grandstanding (not saying we should go back to a monarchy).
Sometimes I do wonder, though (Score:4, Interesting)
I know you're probably saying that as a hyperbole, but sometimes I do kinda wonder.
Way I see it, any working democracy nowadays has the politicians and some non-elected body to fix the politicians' deliberate self-promoting screw-ups. In some countries (e.g., the USA) it's the judges. In some (e.g., the UK) there are some non-elected lords who get to say "that's stupid and unconstitutional, screw that."
Seriously, you'd expect the aristocracy to be the self-serving self-centered barstards, and the politicians to represent the common man. But the way it seems to work entirely too often is that the politicians pull some populist stunt as a law, and then keep their fingers crossed that the non-elected guys have the balls to strike it down. I'm thinking just of the slew of recent "think of the children" laws (saving them even from non-threats like video games) that seem to crop up everywhere before elections.
Except sometimes the non-elected guys don't intervene, or nobody challenges it all the way to the apropriate level to strike it down, and the rest of the country is saddled with the stupidity its politicians wrought. And even in the best case scenario, often it can take several years before its escalated to the point where it can be removed.
Now I'm not entirely deluded. I know how totalitarian regimes historically were worse, and why some people shed blood to get, say, the Magna Carta signed by the king.
But I still wonder. It seems to me like at the very least for each two evils we avoided via democracy, we introduce a new one _because_ of the way modern democracies work.
I'm not sure what a better system would look like, but sometimes I wish someone would invent it already.
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AG Henry McMaster looking for a scapegoat (Score:3)
McMaster responds... (Score:3, Interesting)
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Exactly! Just because the "escorts" supposedly only provide conversation and arm candy doesn't mean that's how it actually goes down; I'd bet that at least 90% of all "escorts" are prostitutes.
Re:What about the Yellow Pages?? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Hah hah. That's cute. Talgrath thinks 10% of escorts just talk and go to parties with you.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You'd be betting correctly; however, it's also true that the greater part of 90% of business those escorts (the ones that are hooking) get doesn't involve sex. It's surprising, but guys don't seem to take what's right there for them; they'll pay a couple hundred bucks just to have a date to take out (are you THAT lame? Go to the party alone and maybe you'll pick up a girl!), and then go home and just chat for a while, and send her off at the end of the night. And yet, if they wanted to, they've already t
Re:Craigslist's standard of non-culpability... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Craigslist's standard of non-culpability... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or like prosecuting the manufacturer of the handgun that ... oh wait. Never mind.
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Re:Craigslist's standard of non-culpability... (Score:4, Interesting)
Interesting. Last night Jim Buckmaster was talking on NPR about the case, and complaining that everything in the Internet, and particularly Craigslist, is held at a much higher standard than, for example, the car industry. If cars kill 45000 people a year, why are car makers allowed to make cars that can two twice as fast as the speed limit? Asking CL to go so far beyond their duty is, to say the least, unfair.
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