Right-to-Repair Law To Get DRM Out of Your Car 403
eldavojohn writes "Ralph Nader's back to hounding the automotive industry ... but it's not about safety this time, it's about the pesky DRM in your car. Most cars have a UART in them that allows you to read off diagnostic codes and information about what may be wrong with the vehicle so you can repair it. Late model cars have been getting increasingly complex and dependent on computers which has caused them, as with most things digital, to move towards a proprietary DRM for these tools, diagnostic codes and updated repair information. This has kept independent auto-shops out of the market for fixing your car and relegating you to depend on pricier dealers to get your automotive ailments cured. The bill still has a provision to protect trade secrets but is a step forward to open up the codes and tools necessary to keep your car running."
This is a very old issue (Score:5, Interesting)
And I thought it was resolved long ago. But now that I am part owner of "big auto" since my government now owns controlling shares in it, I have to say that there is NO "trade secret" that should be allowed to supercede the right to repair or modifiy your personally owned equipment. This is especially true when the purpose of said "trade secret" is the protection measure itself.
Re:Good. (Score:4, Interesting)
You can get readers for them which will clear the code after you fixed the problem. I've seen some that give a warning level on how bad the code is. Just because you have the code and maybe even the explanation, doesn't mean you'll know what to do though.
P0411 - secondary air injection incorrect flow
It means either a hose has a hole, or a solenoid, vavle, or pump isn't working. This is basically an emissions system which I'd rip out in a heartbeat if I didn't have to pass an emissions test.
Not technically necessary, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
The article cites the DMCA as a legal problem, but this doesn't apply in this case. In fact, two of the cases it cites, garage door openers and printer ink cartridges, have already gone to court, and in both cases the judge determined that "lock-out" codes are not protected by the DMCA because they're meant to prevent interoperability, not copyright infringement.
Technically, this Right To Repair act is unnecessary. As long as you're bypassing the restrictions for the sake of interoperability, you're legally in the clear.
But that's only in a perfect world. Unfortunately, in this litigious society you're likely to get sued anyway. It's too bad doing something perfectly legal can still end up costing you thousands in legal fees. Hopefully with an actual law to back up the rulings, there will be a lot fewer lawsuits
We should call Richard Stallman (Score:1, Interesting)
The geek world already has a 'public' opponent of DRM: Richard Stallman. Nader has questionable ethical leanings...
Re:Good. (Score:4, Interesting)
Cars are already more or less pretty open with some proprietary stuff tacked on. ODB-II (or now CAN) has a set list of standard messages that everyone uses. Now car companies can choose to extend into their own messages if they want. Engine speed, throttle, etc all have a set upon CAN Id.
AutoZone and AdvanceAuto and every other car repair place will read these codes for free. They may be cryptic (Your fault could have probably been FUEL PRESS LOW or something), but Google and auto forums can decode them for you pretty easily.
There are also 3rd party options (at least for VW). Ross-Tech makes VAG-COM [ross-tech.com] which will let you connect to almost any ECM in your car and read diagnostics or monitor blocks which is much cheaper than VW's "OE" tool (Many $k).
Now letting them see the latest service manuals would help, many companies use MATLAB/Simulink to autocode their ECM software. The lines of code and the possibility for bugs is scary. And like software companies, no one is going to be doing software updates on 3-4 year old cars meaning instead of "Don't buy X car because the wheel bearing goes bad" you could get a bug report of "Don't buy X car because the throttle position sensor flips out".
Re:They can have their DRM... (Score:3, Interesting)
Not sure what you mean by essential car systems stuff vs. user facing stuff (the computers running the engine, traction control, brakes, navigation radars, autodrive, etc. all report to the user via the dashboard) however DRM is meant to protect copyrighted material. Last I heard, lists of data (such as the error logs that a car's computer might produce) are not copyrightable material. I could understand having such protection on the software running the computer, but not on the data it produces.
Re:Good. (Score:3, Interesting)
I can access codes on my car without any tool. (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting, numerous Cadillac models built after the start of OBD1 have the ability for the owner to both access and clear diagnostic codes by him/herself. My 1993 Cadillac Seville is one such car... I hold down two buttons on the dash, and I can access all of this information via the dash display.
In-dash text displays were rare in 1993, but now all most all cars have them... so this functionality really ought to be in all new vehicles.
It's YOUR car, isn't it? Then again, BMW has build a few models that have no dipstick and no oil cap (visible, anyway)... :(
Re:I believe in free market capitalism (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't want the mechanic who thinks he can figure it out.
Weeding guys out that don't know what they are doing is what the free market is for. It's the USA. No one is forcing you to go to an incompetent (see the word "compete" in there?) mechanic. If you want to go to the dealer, go to the dealer. Me? I'm going to keep driving my 10 year old Ford and take it to my broham, Juan, when it doesn't run well. He knows where to find and how to replace the several on board computers. And I support the local economy more directly by using an independent mechanic. Competition baby!
Re:Good. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not really. All of those things have their own specific terminology. BCM, PCM, ABS module... And immobiliser? The immobilization of vehicles is done in the PCM, although sometimes there is an external unit which handles some aspects of security. It's a circuit, not a module, except when it's an add-on. And when it is, you certainly shouldn't call it the ECU, because someone might confuse it with the PCM... since it most certainly WAS normally called the "ECU" in pre-OBD-II ("OBD-I", though that is a significant misnomer it is commonly used) vehicles. We had computer keys with a wired interface before wireless immobilizers were mandated in the UK, but only on some vehicles.
Re:Not technically necessary, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
The law is necessary because without it written clearly (and sometimes even when it IS written clearly) it will not stop the auto makers from trying to sue you with their army of lawyers. And you could be right... but they will still lawyer you to death. We've all seen it.
Outright Dangerous (Score:5, Interesting)
In my case it was an error code that Mini do everything they can to keep meaningless... as opposed to DRM. It was also potentially life threatening.
Coming back out of the mountains, the electric system shut off in the car, the engine cut out. There was no shoulder so the first place out of traffic we could get to was the gap between the main freeway traffic and an oncoming merge lane.
It was a fairly dangerous spot - no walls, no guard rail to get behind, between two streams of traffic moving at speed - but the best option we had.
The car restarted, flashing up CC-ID 354 - whatever that meant. Most likely, we'd be safe pulling away and finding a less risky spot. But, if it was about to fail again, as we accelerated, we'd be dumped, stalled, in the middle of moving traffic with no shoulder.
Obvious answer: Call Mini service. First Mini dealership couldn't get their service department to answer. They sent me to Mini Roadside Assistance. That muppet had a call sheet he had to work through and couldn't do anything as he couldn't find out VIN in the system. By this point, as we got buffeted by every passing big rig, my wife told him she didn't give a damn about whether we were in the system or not, we simply needed to know if 354 meant it was safe or unsafe to move... Turns out he has none of the details. All he can do is call a tow truck. We hung up and called another dealership's service. They at least answered but refused to say what it meant, only that we shouldn't drive it. No details about whether it would likely get us half a mile to the next off ramp, nothing.
An online search (thank you iPhones) turned up nothing (curse you googles). Turns out the codes are kept pretty much to Mini alone.
What angers me about the whole experience is that "Error 354 means a fuse has blown and the car will stall over 10mph" would've told me there really was no safe way off. "Error 354 means the keyless ignition charger has a faulty connection, drive with the key out of the charger and take it in for service." would have told me it was safe to get out of that exposed position. "It's a secret" did nothing save endanger us.
Re:Prediction (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, it's still Nader's fault, because despite the faults of the US voting system, Nader knew those faults, and knew exactly what he was doing. He thought that getting more funding for his party was worth 4 years of George Bush and as I recall he didn't even get enough votes to get the extra funding anyway so he shafted us, and everything he stood for for 8 years to prove a point.
Re:some comments on OBD-II (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Prediction (Score:3, Interesting)
In the US, factions coalesce into parties before the election. We elect a government. In parliamentary systems, each faction goes on its own and negotiates a majority after the election under the common use case they can't do one on their own.
It's not self-evident that coalitions before voting are worse or better than coalitions after voting.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
BMW vs. Mercedes (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Prediction (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Prediction (Score:2, Interesting)
I think the ideal would be for candidates to run as individuals with no such thing as a political party.
Yeah Right... That's part of how Germany ended up with the National Socialist Democratic Party in charge, we call them Nazi's.
How many fools would we have on the ticket? When Schwarzenegger won Ca, he had like 286 opponents.
We could end up with a President David Duke (Klansman). That's how Nicaragua ended up with Ortega again.
Re:Good. (Score:3, Interesting)
As a shade tree mechanic (professional mechanic years ago) who does not have money shooting out of any of my body orifices, I would prefer a simple well documented way to get at the codes.
That's doubly true if I'm not at home at the time (a remarkably common condition when I'm driving a car!) and want to know if I'll be better off completing my errands then fix it, returning home immediately and hope I get there, or try to limp somewhere and park it.
For your example, High cyl head temperature tells me to take it easy and park it for a bit to cool down. Check the belts then see if it needs coolant. Etc.
Re:Freedom of Choice (Score:3, Interesting)
Thanks for the link. They already have a proportional representation system which is significantly better than the US system for avoiding a two party system. It is a bit disappointing that the voters would consider STV [wikipedia.org] too complicated, but it does sound like it significantly changes the political landscape, especially in that it sounds like it changes the focus of voting from parties to individuals which may make the elected individuals less predictable as they would not necessarily be kept in line by their party.
The regional lines that legislative positions are based on in the US mean that PR is not really an option. IRV [wikipedia.org] is basically the same system, but it does become slightly simpler when counting for only one position.
There are a few places [wikipedia.org] that use IRV, even some in the US [wikipedia.org].
Legislation already in place (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, while the EU obviously has no bearing on the US, auto manufacture is a global industry, standard parts abound, and most US manufacturers have one or more European brands in their stables. You'd have to have some kind of Canute complex to think that if you were to try and charge the US drivers for this information, they wouldn't just turn to the net and ask their European associates for it.
Re:Prediction (Score:3, Interesting)
You (or at least a large majority) of the voters voted for them.
Why should it give you nightmares? Do you really want politicians to sit there and debate about everything and not actually get anything done?
Re:Prediction (Score:3, Interesting)
As it appear at the moment the two main parties, the media, interest groups and others, all try to influence who is or can be elected. Idea is to let people decide freely who is the best candidate and certain systems has been implemented to facilitate this. These systems however has in turn been shaped by ideology (in one shape or another) and has now left the people of the United States with a structure that almost rigidly maintains the need for the two parties. But people should be able to get a broader selection of candidates. The broad cultural, social and economical differences means that the ideas held by the citizens themselves are far more nuanced than what is reflected by the electoral system. Or so is my belief. So do not argue against those that support Nader upon the grounds that they are "stealing" votes form a "legitimate candidate"; all candidates are legitimate; and once everyone realize this perhaps one could hope for better and fairer elections.
Re:Parties are too monolithic (Score:3, Interesting)
The technology is there, people are going to game the system no matter what, arguably it can be made harder by an impartial computer than with bribable humans...