Last.fm User Data Was Sent To RIAA By CBS 334
suraj.sun sends in an update from TechCrunch on a story that generated a lot of controversy a few months back, "Did Last.fm Just Hand Over User Listening Data To the RIAA?" "Now we've located another source for the story, someone who's very close to Last.fm. And it turns out Last.fm was telling the truth, sorta... Last.fm didn't hand user data over to the RIAA. According to our source, it was their parent company, CBS, that did it. Here's what we believe happened: CBS requested user data from Last.fm, including user name and IP address. CBS wanted the data to comply with a RIAA request but told Last.fm the data was going to be used for 'internal use only.' It was only after the data was sent to CBS that Last.fm discovered the real reason for the request. Last.fm staffers were outraged, say our sources, but the data had already been sent to the RIAA. We believe CBS lied to us when they denied sending the data to the RIAA, and that they subsequently asked us to attribute the quote to Last.fm to make the statement defensible. Last.fm's denials were strictly speaking correct, but they ignored the underlying truth of the situation, that their parent company supplied user data to the RIAA, and that the data could possibly be used in civil and criminal actions against those users."
Re:Breaking News (Score:5, Insightful)
Guess what guys. What you did was basic. You remembered my song history. Along with twitter, I consider you to be one of the most simple web "2.0" tools on the net today. You have a crowd, but not a complex or clever execution.
And now your users don't trust you...
Why the outrage? (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't support corrupt organisations (Score:5, Insightful)
Stop buying CDs and movies. It's the only way to stop RIAA and MPAA abusing our rights. Fund the artists, not these corrupt organisations.
Artists: Go direct to the public via the web.
RIAA/MPAA: Evolve or die. Stop attacking and threatening potential customers, or like me, they will stop buying your product.
AC
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who will use their service?
Probably the 90-99% of their users who don't and will never know anything about this or even care if they do.
Little use as legal evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
the data could possibly be used in civil and criminal actions against those users
Except that
(1) There is no way to tell whether music on last.fm is from legal or illegal copies.
(2) "Listening" to music you don't own is in no way illegal. Even if the RIAA can prove you are listening to music you didn't purchase, they have presented no evidence that a crime has occurred.
(3) The tag data sent to last.fm is self-reported and unverified. Basically, there is no more evidence that you actually listened to the music than if you said you listened to it on facebook. In fact, due to incorrect tags, I'm quite sure that I have reported listening to music not in my collection on a number of occasions.
So while the RIAA may have a bit of a tip-off in looking at high-volume listeners, I don't think they could even get a warrant for more information, since they distinctly lack evidence of any kind of crime.
Re:Little use as legal evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
that's what happens when you sell out (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a reason Craigslist, for example, has never gone public or sold a controlling stake to a major media company: because Craig Newmark knows exactly what would happen to the site if he did. He could get more money, sure, but he's very wealthy as it is, so he doesn't need more money. Not enough to sell out the site he spent so many years building, anyway.
Remember, folks, free-market capitalism is about your right to control your own business, taking responsibility for it and running it as you see fit. If you sell out to some large, bureaucratic entity, greedy bastards with no vision will run your life's work right into the ground. Is the payout worth it? Maybe it is, but at least make sure you realize what you're doing: you cannot both sell out to CBS and retain your integrity. The freedom to choose not to sell something is as important as free access to markets is.
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't support corrupt organisations (Score:3, Insightful)
What's more likely to happen is the RIAA/MPAA will not only survive, but they will get further legislation passed to gain further control over what you do with the internet and your computer.
I'm glad I never registered at last.fm. I always felt that it and similar sites were being used by the RIAA to create a catalog of people to sue.
Re:I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why the outrage? (Score:2, Insightful)
That's not "putting in another way", it's two completely different points.
I use - and quite enjoy - last.fm, and I fully expected shit like this to start happening once they were taken over by CBS, and you know what? I couldn't care less.
If the RIAA is that curious to know how much Gogol Bordello I listen to, they are welcome to it (especially if that helps CBS keep the service free). The suggestion that someone could get sued over something like this is laughable.
So yeah, until a better (or equally good and Free) service comes along, I'm fine with last.fm
Re:TechCrunch was basically right the 1st time (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you have some sort of list of last.fm users I could look over to confirm your statement? sorry, j/k
In all seriousness, though, my assumption is that the average last.fm user is no different than the average facebook user. Which is to say completely following the bell curve with only the top 2% or so being 1) savvy computer users with 2) an opinion about the RIAA who 3) care about the privacy of their use of a free online radio service.
But that's just my thoughts on it. If you have some statistics that somehow demonstrate that the users of THIS online service are somehow superior power users, feel free to post'em.
Re:Breaking News (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
That's why people must start using whole drive encryption. Encryption is not just for criminal use but is also to protect innocent people from having their rights violated, we need laws to prevent computers from being used as evidence.
Re:that's what happens when you sell out (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a reason Craigslist, for example, has never gone public or sold a controlling stake to a major media company: because Craig Newmark knows exactly what would happen to the site if he did. He could get more money, sure, but he's very wealthy as it is, so he doesn't need more money.
It's called "Integrity" and unfortunately it is in short supply.
Re:Probable cause for a search warrant (Score:4, Insightful)
This is absolutely not true. Any unauthorized copy is a copyright violation, whether or not you upload or download, whether or not you knew it was an illegal copy, and even whether or not the person you got it from purported to give you a license. Civil copyright infringement is a strict liability offense. That means they don't care what you were thinking. The fact that the copyright owner has to prove is that you copied protected elements of their copyrighted work.
I see this theory on Slashdot a lot, and while I can see why it's so popular, that doesn't make it true. If any of you are sued for copyright infringement, please don't go in and tell the judge, "I wasn't infringing. I was just downloading!" In fact, don't say anything. As soon as you get served, hire a lawyer.
Ask. (Score:2, Insightful)
Why doesn't someone ask CBS and the RIAA if this happened?
They'll either say no, or no comment. Then we'll know.
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
That won tell them much, the real issue is how many times have you scrobbled that you're listening to a track that is not yet released?
Every pre-release mp3 you ever scrobbled is tied to your account, which is owned by cbs.
Sucks.
Does it really matter? (Score:4, Insightful)
Does it really matter if it was CBS, the owner of last.fm, that did it, even though the people who run last.fm might not have done it if asked? They're still the same company, just a different level. If my boss decides to put some DRM in our new game that sniffs around on your machine and sends it back your data to our servers, do you really give a crap that the Jeff the leader coder thought it was a sucky idea?
This whole idea that they're not the same thing is a farce. It's just sleight of hand to get you to feel good about a company that you would never have given a chance if it was directly marketed by parent company Evil, Incorporated.
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:3, Insightful)
I use the service, and will continue to. I, like most other users, publicly let anyone see what I listen to. In fact, that's the main functionality of the service as far as I am concerned (that and the recommendations). I find Last.fm very useful, and hey, it's free. Also, this information was supposedly leaked by people in Last.fm themselves - if so, I get the feeling they feel empowered against CBS from all this; they probably won't let CBS break contracts like this again. CBS has egg on their face.
While I'm uncomfortable with my IP address given out, I don't consider it the biggest breach of confidentiality; IP addresses should not be considered a secret. I visit 100s of sites, and they all know my IP. I use bit torrent, where 100s of other people know my IP. Anyway, the RIAA cannot use my IP to incriminate me, because the tags my scrobbler send to them are not proof that I listened to that music because plenty of music is mistagged.
I realize people here may not care for my disregard for my privacy online, but I'd counter that you are insane if you think you actually have privacy on free online sites.
Re:Little use as legal evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
(1) Unless of course you were listening to a leaked album, where the likelihood of you having a legal copy before the release date is extremely low.
(2) Perhaps not, but it's pretty unlikely that tracks from an unreleased album appear because you borrowed a legit CD from a friend before it even went on sale.
(3) Still true
From what I recall, the reason for the data release was to see who was listening to the leaked U2 album. While that may not have proved that the listener was the one who acquired the tracks, it certainly doesn't have the same amount of plausible deniability as listening to a normal track.
Of course, listeners allowing scrobbles of their leaked tracks to appear on a Web site that publicly displays your listening habits isn't exactly smart either.
Re:that's what happens when you sell out (Score:5, Insightful)
Too true. And even before widespread network usage, traditional classifieds were already under serious attack from traditional "alternative" paper ads. In my area, there's been a weekly paper that published classified ads for free from individuals, and makes money by charging for larger graphical ads and for line ads from businesses. It's been around since the early 90s at least. Even before Craigslist, if you were looking for a motorcycle, boat, car or any such thing, you'd pick up that weekly because almost nobody advertised in the local newspaper. And it isn't hard to figure out why -- the prices for a newspaper ad are nuts. For example, 4 years ago or so, whenever we'd put in a 3 line want ad for an employee, it was cost $125 to run for three days.
About two years ago, we decided to try a Craigslist ad because it didn't cost anything and if it didn't work out, we didn't lose anything. We ended up getting three times the applicants and of higher quality to boot. Gone were the days of wondering what would possess someone would to bring a purse to an interview that had boobs printed on it. In compensation, we do sometimes get some unusual email addresses now, but we just don't call back. Word to the wise, don't respond to an employer's job posting with an address like "GoatseMe69@msn.com".
Even if CL charged $10 per ad, we'd still use it without hesitation. Compared to what things used to cost, $60 would be a bargain, particularly because you have enough room to adequately describe the job which helps immensely in getting appropriate applicants. If CL wanted to, its revenue could spike very high whenever it wished.
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, quite a few people, I guess. The attraction of this sort of thing for certain people is a "well known fact" as they say. It is relatively easy to post things and enjoy the notority they bring. I'm not saying it would ever happen on
I'm not sure that using a TechCrunch story to verify a TechCrunch story is any sort of unbiased confirmation. Also, a picture of an email is not the type of "proof" that I'd be willing to accept from anyone I knew personally, let alone a provocative website.
this is why I never signed up for last.fm (Score:5, Insightful)
Giving any company a window into your day-to-day activities is very dangerous. The possibility of this kind of thing happening must run through the mind of any vaguely security-conscious person who considers their business model. Honestly, it's one of the reasons I never signed up.
That being said, however, there are a couple things to remember, though.
1) You give much more information to Google. If you have done ANYTHING illegal in the last couple years, Google could be used to help convict you.
Think about it. All of your searches, page views, chats and emails can be tied to a single account. You could probably establish where I've been every day with hour resolution just by examining the IP addresses I access email and search from, to say nothing of actually reading the contents.
2) Last.fm's innocence or guilt has no bearing on this issue
The problem is that this accusation plays perfectly to the fears a user might have about sending such detailed information to Last.fm. Whereas there are endless accusations about Google being in bed with the FBI and so forth, I'd imagine nearly every user of Last.fm considers the RIAA a credible threat. It's plausible that the RIAA would ask for the data, and it's plausible that a big company like CBS would be willing to side with the cartels on this one. They're being tried in the court of public opinion, and as far as I can see, they are losing.
Bottom line, if I had a bone to pick with Last.fm, this would be the perfect way to take them down.
3) This is only going to get worse
As the number of online services we use on a daily basis increases, our exposures are only going to multiply. Until we demand *true* anonymous use of internet resources (as distinguished from services that offer the illusion of privacy but are still subject to subpoenas, backroom deals, compromised network admins, etc), the misuse of our private information will only worsen.
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the RIAA they only are planning on searching the data for an unreleased album.
Uh-huh. And because the RIAA has such a stellar record of transparency and accountability, we should trust them explicitly.
Re:Last.fm denying this (again) (Score:3, Insightful)
I found Spotify's library disappointingly small.
So, how is the weather in denial? (Score:5, Insightful)
You think the RIAA is going to let a silly little thing like possibly mistagged music stop it? Hasn't stopped them before, won't stop them next time.
And it is not about winning from the RIAA in a court case, it is about being able to afford to win. US legal system means you got to have the money to pay the lawyer up front and I am fairly sure the RIAA got more money then you.
Last.fm commited a major error in judgement and CBS showed its colors. Anyone who is smart is going to stop the service. No wait, anyone who is smart NEVER used the service. Giving your music data to a media company in bed with the RIAA? Exactly what part of that sounds like a good idea?
Re:Don't support corrupt organisations (Score:1, Insightful)
The parasites at these big companies don't care about music or art or fairness. They're only in it for the money. Cut off the money and they will dry up and blow away.
Many artists have come forward with how they've been ripped off by the companies. Everybody from Trent Reznor to Courtney Love. And it's nothing new. From Elvis to TLC - the record industry is run by crooks and always has been.
I feel I have a moral obligation to withhold my money from criminal organizations.
Re:Probable cause for a search warrant (Score:4, Insightful)
Any unauthorized copy is a copyright violation, whether or not you upload or download, whether or not you knew it was an illegal copy, and even whether or not the person you got it from purported to give you a license.
This is not universally true either.
Perhaps your argument holds by US law, but not by all national copyright laws. 95% of the human population does not live in the US.
Re:Why tell the truth when a Lie will do? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Breaking News (Score:1, Insightful)
The last.fm player is GPLed. Did this prevent the (supposed) "data theft"? No.
* You own your own data!
This statement is completely worthless.
* Use our service, or run your own!
Great. So the MAFIAA (or a straw man) will set up their own server.
I'm not conluding that libre.fm is more or less evil than last.fm, but since you never know what happens to your data on a remote computer you cannot trust either.
Re:Breaking News (Score:3, Insightful)
That's about as useful as setting up your own Facebook.
Re:Breaking News (Score:4, Insightful)
People were "setting up their own Facebook" long before that site came along to brainwash simple-minded users into thinking there was no other way to have a personal website.
Re:I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Why your genius plan will fail, in three words:
Rubber hose cryptanalysis
Re:The death of Last.fm? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not the least bit skeptical of last.fm after this. First off, I don't care if they reveal my listening habits, that's already on my profile. If I didn't want my music habits known, I'd not scrobble them.
Also, I use last.fm for its ability to introduce me to artists listened to by people with similar taste to mine in music, which is very handy for finding interesting new artists, and sometimes to use their radio functionality.