North Korea Conducts Nuclear Test 573
viyh writes "North Korea conducted a nuclear test on Monday, South Korea's Yonhap news agency quoted a ruling party official as saying.
A magnitude 4.7 earthquake was recorded by the USGS in North Korea.
South Korean President Lee Myung-bak has called an emergency meeting of cabinet ministers over the test, Yonhap said."
Scary (Score:1, Interesting)
Japan Goes Nuclear At Last? (Score:2, Interesting)
It'll be interesting to see if this latest provocation makes Japan [nuclearweaponarchive.org] finally go nuclear [scitizen.com].
Meanwhile... in North Korea... (Score:3, Interesting)
News not yet confirmed by THE OFFICIAL NEWS SOURCE. [kcckp.net]
See? Absolutely nothing new happened since Kim Jong Il received a gift from UK figure. [kcckp.net]
Radioactive S. Korea? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Scary (Score:3, Interesting)
They will never be used offensively (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not good, but all this means is North Korea can't be invaded, and who would want to? Altruism is not a good enough reason to sacrifice troops in a country that would be prepared to use Nukes against an invader. The leadership is weak and in a time of turmoil. I'm fairly certain that Kim Yong-il suffered a stroke recently so he can't lead the country there forever so someone has to replace him. They will inherit a country with weapons, but no bread. How sad for the North Korean people.
So while the leadership of North Korea is at it's weakest, it beats it's chest with it's weapons forcing improving their position of bargaining. This can be summarised with the wisdom of Sun Tzu: "the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him." and the North Korean leadership is doing the opposite of "masking strength with weakness is to be effected by tactical dispositions."
They are masking weakness with strength.
Re:The insane need not apply (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, but it took extremely advanced knowledge of nuclear weapons with the experience and data from many, many actual detonations fed into simulations to produce a nuclear weapon this small. It is MUCH easier to built a WW2 era 20 kiloton bomb that has to be delivered by truck, missile, or plane than a 1 kiloton shell or "suitcase." I would think that a rogue state would actually use a limited supply of radioactive material to actually produce conventional munitions that spread far more deadly radioactive material around by simple explosion than try to build a suitcase nuke. A far more dangerous situation would be a group simply purchasing a nuclear weapon from a failed Soviet republic.
Re:Radioactive S. Korea? (Score:2, Interesting)
"May 1, 1962 - Sahara desert, French Algeria - Accidental venting of underground nuclear test * The second French underground nuclear test, codenamed Béryl, took place in a shaft under mount Taourirt, near In Ecker, 150 km (100 mi) north of Tamanrasset, Algerian Sahara. Due to improper sealing of the shaft, a spectacular flame burst through the concrete cap and radioactive gases and dust were vented into the atmosphere. The plume climbed up to 2600m (8500ft) high and radiation was detected hundreds of km away. About a hundred soldiers and officials, including two ministers, were irradiated. The number of contaminated Algerians is unknown."
How much would you stake on North Korea implementing proper safety methods?
Re:Scary (Score:2, Interesting)
How to make a democracy that actually scales out:
1) Every citizen gets to vote on every issue
2) Every citizen gets to introduce bills to be voted upon
3) Every vote is public information, no private ballot. You are your own politician, you cast votes openly like one.
4) Any citizen can vote for any other citizen rather than voting on issues directly. If they choose to do so, the one they voted for casts their vote on the issues.
5) All votes are sent to a central tabulation authority through a secure wired network.
6) Votes are also broadcast across a citizens mesh network and stored in a multitude of widely geographically dispersed sites, making wide scale tampering impractical.
How it works:
Citizen A introduces a bill. Citizen B votes yes. Citizen C votes no. Citizen D and citizen E both voted for B, citizen F voted for C, citizen G voted for E. Citizen B casts yes votes for B, D, E and G, while Citizen C casts no votes for C and F. The bill is introduced into law.
Oops. Citizen B was a corrupt bastard, and voted contrary to the wishes of those who supported him on a very important law with wide reaching consequences. Everyone immediately revokes their assignment of votes to him and passes them to someone else. Now Citizen B has no significant voice beyond his own vote. A new bill is introduced to repair the damage the next day.
This is a functional model for democracy that scales. I'm actively working towards designing the infrastructure that will make it possible. Hopefully I will finish before I die. Maybe not.
Can think of ways to make it better?
Re:Scary (Score:5, Interesting)
Kim Jong Il is definitely not a nutjob. North Korea's internal politics are a pressure cooker like few on the planet. He's extremely smart, politically savvy and extremely ruthless. He learned at the feet of a master - his father - and successfully transitioned to power when it was widely expected he would fail. This is a man that thinks nothing of starving millions (as happened in the late '90's) of his own people if it suits his political needs. North Korea has survived for over half a century by using it's massive military to threaten the South and has played public opinion in South Korea like a violin.
Since China transitioned from a closed economy and withdrew much of it's overt support, North Korea has successfully used seemingly insane threats as negotiating leverage to obtain international aid many times. Because of China's residual support for the regime and their legitimate fear of massive numbers of refugees crossing the border, as well as resistance by (probably North supported) elements in South Korea it has been politically impossible to call North Korea's bluff. This is perhaps the one thing that could successfully break the back of the regime and initiate change in the North.
If it were possible to "pull the plug" on international aid and enlist China to stare down the North's military threats the regime would probably collapse, but it's unlikely China could be induced to do so given the flood of refugees they would inevitably have to handle.
Hence the "insanity" continues with no end in sight.
Re:Scary (Score:3, Interesting)
In communism the people own everything and everyone works for the good of everyone. The obvious problem is that people are lazy and greedy. If I build houses and you just do gardening, I'm going to expect to make more than you. After all if I don't build a house you don't even have a place to garden. Or I'm lazy, while the rest of you losers work to better society I'm just going to reap the benefits of your work without contributing....
Even a lot of the old tribes had differences in status between certain people. Maybe in the whole garden of Eden thing communism would work but not in a real world.
And socialism, concentrating all the power in the government, seems like an even bigger disaster. For some reason all the socialist governments seem to be ultra corrupt. And somehow many of them seem to be ruled by some kind of monarchy type thing. North Korea seems like a brutal Monarchy. Cuba, it seemed like Fidel Castro had all the power there. But even if it was a "democratic" government like the US that had all the power. Does anyone really thing congress is on the side of the people? Does anyone really think the supreme court is on the side of the people? Does anyone think the president is on the side of the people? Well if you do go get your head examined and also never vote again you idiot. Even if the US government became all powerful (which it seems to be on the way to becoming) it would be a disaster.
Communism = great, best form of government if people are perfect and everyone wants to work to better society, it's a fantasy..
Socialism = give all the power to the government have them in control of everything. Then the corrupt people in the government get the power to run everything, even out the wealth while keeping it for themselves, what a disaster....
"Democracy" = Some sort of elected representation. You just have to win the popularity contest and you can do what you want. Quite often the choice is between a handful of political parties that are held sway to whoever pays them with contributions. In the US it is really easy because there are only 2 parties and mostly they agree except for a few token issues.
Re:Barry's Fault (Score:3, Interesting)
Also I think the guy is delusional and belongs in a mental institution. He seemed to think he was Jesus's second coming or something and with the hand of god he would smite all those violent Islamic people who dare occupy the holy land, they're all terrorists. But I think he needs to believe his delusions. I don't even think with GWB logic he could justify planning 9/11.
But anyway it is amusing how bad the sentiment against the whole US is in the rest of the world. Especially South America. They're still a bit pissed off over the whole keeping dictators in power and training their armies to murder/torture people. Ronald Regan the hero of the Republican party here is a mass murderer down there guilty of crimes against humanity. Personally I was just a kid when Regan was in office, all I remember is the guy took a lot of vacations LOL....
Re:Why should USA care about S Korea (Score:5, Interesting)
How does a nuclear armed North Korea benefit China?
All the explanations I can come up with only make short-term sense. I don't think the Koreas' will remain seperate forever (or even for more than 50 years). A unified, nuclear armed Korea is probably not a good thing to have on your doorstep - why encourage it?
I DO think the North Korean government is pretty crazy, and once they get deliverable nuclear weapons, that gives them a big stick to use against anyone, including China! Allowing North Korea to develop nuclear weapons ultimately reduces China's control over them. Why would they do this?
North Korea and China are allies for strategic, historical reasons which are becoming less important. The basic relationship seems to be, "We give you arms, and food when you botch up your agriculture or have a drought -- you cause trouble/distractions for us when we ask". I wouldn't bet a lot on such a relationship enduring many decades.
The fact that North Korea would be a smoking hole within a half-hour doesn't seem to deter them much, but I think China might object to having Guangzhou or Hong Kong removed as well. That's the problem with nukes - their destinations are not hard-coded into them based on the political winds of the day they are done.
And, risking veering off into serious off-topic land: Why do you think Japan's culture is more compatible with the West than any other Asian country? I know it might be a long response...
Re:War is peace (Score:5, Interesting)
The odd thing about North Korea is that even without nukes it is offlimits for US military action for three reasons
First most people think the North Korean army would fight if attacked, unlike the Iraqi one. Their equipment is outdated, but they have numbers and determination would most likely kill enough Americans to trigger a Vietnam style withdrawal. I'd guess China would keep them supplied too.
Secondly North Korea has vast amounts of artillery aimed at Seoul, the capital of South Korea. It is theorized that if attacked they would shell Seoul. By the time the artillery had been destroyed by US airpower millions of South Koreans would be dead, and probably thousands of US pilots. The US government would most likely not be able to accept that loss.
Finally it's widely believed that China has told the US that NK is under its protection and that attacking it would move the US and China into an open state of hostility.
Now they do have nukes they could use them on US forces, Japan or South Korea. Actually I think that Japan or the US would probably be able to shoot down NK missiles or destroy them on the ground as they are liquid fueled and thus take time to set up. Also there are questions of whether they would be able to build a warhead that would fit on a missile. So compared to their conventional military and powerful allies, their nukes are not particularly useful.
Of course even a few dummy missile launches at Japan may trigger an extreme overreaction on Japan's part. Their current pacifism could be revoked quite quickly and while pointedly non nuclear it is widely believed that they could build a large nuclear arsenal very quickly if threatened. China would no doubt react by building up its own military. So an attack on NK would most likely leave South East Asia looking like a much more threatening place.
Re:Scary (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, it only seems logical to start there. I mean if the people of North Korea REALLY knew how they were living in comparison to the rest of the world, or even the other half of their little peninsula which many of us even envy because of their crazy fast and cheap broadband, they would be up in arms in no time.
The party members at the top of the ladder know what the "west" is like, and emulate the lifestyle themselves with lavish palaces, cars, food, women, entertainment, all at the expense of their starving, stunted, diseased people. They are so malnourished there that children are getting cataracts and only growing to 4 feet tall and can't walk. It's the Middle Ages all over again. You can send all the food aid and stuff you want, but for all I know it's just intercepted in port and stockpiled in Kim Jong-Il's basement. If they do hand stuff out, I'm sure they rebag it so Kim's face is on there not USAID, UN, or whatever.
I forget where I heard this, but in the school books, the world maps have been redrawn and NK's friendly countries are represented much larger than in real life, and their enemies, like the USA, are redrawn much smaller. I think they also greatly increased the size of NK as well to make the kids think that their country is the biggest on earth.
Sure sounds like they're keeping the outside influences to a minimum to me. Rewriting history and reshaping the earth's geography to suit their own twisted ends is just part of the process.
Re:Scary (Score:2, Interesting)
Your history is a bit wrong (Score:3, Interesting)
Your premise that the USA has historically been "buddies" with Japan is entirely wrong. The USA sailed in Japan with a fleet of modern warships in the 1850s and forced Japan to essentially surrender without so much as half a fight.
"The black ships" was one of the most humiliating episodes in Japanese history and there are plenty of Japanese that haven't forgotten it.
The deal is, historically, if anything, the USA has had a much better relationship with China. We accepted numerous Chinese immigrants and we went to war with Japan because of Japanese atrocities against China.
The thing is, I really don't see, long term, why the USA should set itself up against China. Keep them out of the pacific, yes, but if China wants to play hard with Korea or Japan, then, is it really our problem?
Re:Scary (Score:2, Interesting)
You wanna know the best part about you believing competitiveness is a weakness? Your position doesn't even have to be considered because you've taken yourself out of the game. You lose by forfeit.
Pretty decent as a object lesson in the folly of idealism.
Re:In Communist Korea... (Score:3, Interesting)
Hiroshima sized yield doesn't mean Hiroshima sized device or Hiroshima technology device. (Note that the Little Boy bomb is reported to be about 13-18 Kiloton while the Nagasaki bomb - a plutonium pinch device - only 21.)
The Hiroshima bomb was dropped without testing because it was such a near-sure-thing. The Nagasaki bomb had a prototype tested at Trinity because it was it was more iffy: Any screwup in the explosive focus, the calculations, the isotope mix, the timing of the neutron strobelamp, or more stray neutrons than expected would cause it to perform badly or just spray its material around in a conventional explosion. (They even constructed a bottle to hold the debris in case it failed, to catch the material for another try, though they changed their minds and left the bottle lying near ground zero.)
North Korea's first test apparently didn't work anywhere near as well as intended. They have a parallel missile program for a delivery system - developed on a very limted budget compared to that of WW II USA. And in sixty years a lot of stuff about what works has leaked out, while the Manhattan project had to roll their own from scratch.
So I'd bet that the bomb they tested is a prototype of one that would work as a payload on the missiles they're testing, not a new "Little Boy" - or even "Fat Man".
Re:Scary (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Scary (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:They are trolling the planet (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course you can't ignore a nuclear device exploding but just imagine if you could... Kim Jong guy like any troll would be extremely pissed.
Do they really dream about using it against South Korea? I mean, a country in walking distance is not good for nuking.
It is more like a crybaby looking for attention with nukes. I know it sounds crazy but what they did is no less. Also, I'd be very careful underground nuke testing if my country is small and has faults around.
Re:Scary (Score:3, Interesting)
While there are a few holes in ShieldW0lf's idea (the public ballot idea is a huge question mark), I think your issue could be sorted out if there was a website for searching and categorizing the bills. You could subscribe to categories you're interested in, block ones you're not interested in, filter bills by category or creator, etc...the bills could be kept relatively short and concise instead of being a bigass slab of paper with politicians tacking on everything they happen to want done at the time.
After a little while the corporations cranking out cash grab / anti-competitive bills would be roundly ignored. People making good concise bills would become popular (there should be a minimum vote as a percent of the population required to prevent small interest groups from passing bills with few votes - say it needs the equivalent of 30% of the population to vote Yes with no more than 30% voting No to pass - just a quick idea that could be fine-tuned).
Any such massively popular bills could be brought to your attention, by, say, subscribing to Massively Popular Bills.
To keep the number of duplicate bills down, when you submit a bill it compares it to any similar bills currently up for voting and asks if you still wish to submit. If it's too similar maybe it shouldn't let you submit - a person could "dilute" a cause they don't like by spamming their bills with similar ones.
All this still allows for good representatives to rise to prominence via "referral votes."
Maybe have a feature showing the top recipients of referral votes - The best thing is that if they really screw up, their "career" will be dead in an instant.
How long till they annoy China enough that they (Score:1, Interesting)
get swatted like a bug?
Its really too bad that there will be no unified (peacful) Korea, but NK's stupidity has just about guaranteed that will not happen.
China has a lot of reasons for wanting to keep NK from destabilizing the region and as an up and coming superpower, they may feel the need to take action. I know I would NOT support sending my fellow Americans to NK's aid if China invaded (in fact, I hope we would side with/assist China if such action occurred to help us learn to cooperate closely in the future.)
Re:Scary (Score:2, Interesting)
We need BOTH Socialism and Capitalism (either implicitly or indirectly) to build and sustain a great nation.