Questioning Mozilla's Plans For HTML5 Video

AberBeta writes with this excerpt from OSNews: "We're on the verge of a serious evolution on the web. Right now, the common way to include video on the web is by use of Flash, a closed-source technology. The answer to this is the HTML5 video tag, which allows you to embed video into HTML pages without the use of Flash or any other non-HTML technology; combined with open video codecs, this could provide the perfect opportunity to further open up and standardize the web. Sadly, not even Mozilla itself really seems to understand what it is supposed to do with the video tag, and actually advocates the use of JavaScript to implement it. Kroc Camen, OSNews editor, is very involved in making/keeping the web open, and has written an open letter to Mozilla in which he urges them not to use JavaScript for HTML video."

Re:Eyes wide shut

[Simon (S2)]

So are we going to require browsers to install with codec packs?

No. The idea is to include the codec in the browser. But to allow that at reasonable conditions, the codec should be Free. The codec proposed for this purpose is Ogg Theora/Vorbis, an OSS codec build specifically trying not to use any patented technology. As you can imagine, Apple, MS and Adobe are not really happy about this, as they obviously would like their patented technology to be used in HTML 5, and because Apple and MS are not only video-codec-makers but browser-makers too, and not small ones, we can not just ignore them and go ahead with Theora. Implement the HTML 5 video tag in Mozilla with Theora looked like a good chance to get the open codec though, but this Javascript stuff post by Mozilla now makes it look like they have other plans.

Re:Eyes wide shut

[nyctopterus]

Flash Video is unbelievably processor intensive (especially given it's pretty crappy quality), surely you've noticed that? Even on modern dual processor machines it can stutter and slow down other processes. If video could settle down like image formats, the web would be a better place for it.

Re:Eyes wide shut

[Sephr]

By default the user needs to initiate playing the video, but there is an optional autoplay attribute which can be used to auto-buffer and auto-play the video.

Re:Video tag

[Scrameustache]

A lot of video producers like to rely on the fact that Flash makes it difficult to download videos to your hard drive.

A lot of video producers don't know about FlashGot [flashgot.net].

Re:Eyes wide shut

[Baseclass]

It's true, Flash content is choppier in Linux. I blame Adobe and their crappy plugin. If I download an .flv and play it in mplayer the problems disappear.

Re:HTML is dead... Didn't you notice?

[Repossessed]

That would be the entire point of HTML 5. To bring HTML back to the forefront.

Everyone using Firefox 3.5, see this

[Anonymous Coward]

Demo of video and SVG support in Firefox 3.5 [mozilla.com]. That's why video being built-in to HTML5 is important.

Re:Eyes wide shut

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worth noting that autoplay exists to stop authors from autoplaying videos using JavaScript. Because of that browsers will be able to prevent automatic playing of videos if user wishes so.

Re:Waiting

[smoker2]

This has nothing to do with HTML 5 or the video tag. The javascript is used to create a fallback path for users who don't have a particular codec installed. It is not compulsory. Most linux machines install ogg theora with a media player package anyway, it's the rest of the world that need to download it.

Re:Eyes wide shut

[nyctopterus]

Nope, OS X (10.5) on a dual 2.8Ghz iMac. There's no excuse for Flash video's failures.

Sorry, no plug-in for you

[tepples]

If the tag supports the ability to specify where the codec can be acquired from

The pluginspage attribute of the <embed> element already supports this, as does the classid attribute of the <object> element. But whenever I try to follow the link, all I get is "Sorry, we don't make a plug-in for your combination of CPU, operating system, and web browser."

Re:Eyes wide shut

[QuoteMstr]

I won't even bother getting into details, but flash can't get the clipboard contents, only set it

Clipboard.getData() [adobe.com].

much like all other browsers

Only IE, actually.

Don't get me started on your XMLHttpRequest argument...

Flash allows you to request content from sites that would be blocked by XMLHttpRequest. Can you refuse that statement or not?

I bet if it was made by Linus/RMS/Jobs, the same crowd would have worshiped it...

You inadvertently make a good point. If Linus or RMS had developed flash, its source would have been open sourced, and by now, its capabilities would have been integrated into the browser. We wouldn't talk about what "Flash" can do as distinct from something else, but simply about the abilities of browsers.

That's what the rich media part of HTML5 is all about: doing what Flash can do in a browser.

Re:When bandwidth costs more than MPEG royalties

[asa]

"Unfortunately, Theora still needs twice the bitrate as H.264 to deliver the same quality, even with the "Thusnelda" rewrite of the encoder."

Except that statement is provably false if by no other facts than that neither Theora nor H264 quality scales linearly with bitrate.

Beyond the obvious fail in your claim, you're also just wrong.

See this comparison [xiph.org] and this comparison [xiph.org] to see how Theora compares to the most popular real-world implementations of H264 on the Web.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:The key is Google/Youtube

[asa]

If we can get Google to go along with Theora, we'd be all set.

Google is going along with Theora. Chrome will (does in test builds) support Theora+Vorbis in Ogg.

Re:Waiting

[Simetrical]

You can probably guess that I personally am going to disable the HTML5 A/V elements and continue downloading video manually. That aside, browser based audio/video should provide basic playback functionality for the user without javascript enabled. The functionality should also be easily disabled or switched into "prompt to download" mode

All of this is already the case. Try out Chrome on Windows, or Firefox 3.5 on (AFAIK) any platform. You don't need JavaScript enabled (unless the page author is a jerk, but that's always true), and you can download from the context menu as you'd expect.

Re:H.264 H.263

[asa]

tepples, you claimed that H.264 requires twice the bitrate to achieve the same quality. d235j responded that it only took15% more bandwidth to achieve the same quality and you failed to respond to that. Also, for the last several years h.263 was "good enough" for billions of video views from hundreds of millions of users. Theora is considerably better than h.263 and very close to h.264. Your claim that it requires twice the bandwidth to math h.264 just doesn't hold water with the overwhelming majority of video content online today. For real-world online video content, both standard and high-def, Theora holds its own against H264. It might not be better, but at comparable bitrates, I'd wager you couldn't find more than 2% of the Web population who can appreciate the differences. Oh, and Theora is getting better with every passing day AND in my experience it beats H264 in decoding CPU usage.

Unequal standards

[Anonymous Coward]

These days, flash is basically a VM for JS plus a bunch of drawing and playback APIs. Why would you demand that firefox does things without JS that flash does with JS? That simply makes no sense.

Video in Firefox works with absolutely zero JS. If you want to create fancy dancing interactive controls, yes you'll need JS, but basic playback doesn't require it... Meanwhile flash needs actionscript3 to do anything at all.

Re:If you can't stream, you can't...

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you "download" a live stream of a live event, such as a news conference or a sport competition?

Currently VLC. One day, this will work...

ffmpeg -i http://stream_in_url/ stream_out_file.ogv

And how do you plan to deal with video providers who offer streaming for 0 USD or downloads for 20 USD, and no other video provider offers the title you want?

See above. There's not too much commercial "content" I care for and any that requires something like rtmpdump, I'm not going to bother with anyway.

If you switch the browser into "prompt to download", you get the first five seconds.

That's not really a browser problem, it's upto the provider to make clear what their terms are.

Don't worry; it does.

Who's worried? I already said I'd be disabling audio/video in the browser. If I'm worried about anything it's the prospect of having to maintain a firefox build without gstreamer -- hardly a major concern.

Re:The key is Google/Youtube

[SanityInAnarchy]

Check out http://youtube.com/html5

I'm pretty sure that's vorbis/theora.

Re:When bandwidth costs more than MPEG royalties

[nxtw]

The situation you describe isn't what's actually happening. Theora isn't close to H.264.