Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? 1354
JustShootMe writes "I have a question for my fellow Slashdotters, and yes, I realize I am entering the lion's den covered in tasty meat-flavored sauce. I have never been a very social person, preferring to throw myself into technology; therefore, I've been spectacularly unsuccessful in developing any meaningful interpersonal relationships. Lately I have begun to feel that this situation is not tenable, and I would like to fix it. But I really don't know how and haven't the faintest idea where to start. I know that I am in the minority and that there are many different kinds of Slashdot readers, most of whom have more experience in this realm than I do. So please tell me: how, and more importantly, where do you meet fellow geeks — preferably including some of the opposite gender — in meatspace?"
step one (Score:5, Insightful)
outdoors (Score:4, Insightful)
Take up an outdoor sport.
If you can find something that you like to do you will meet other people who like the same thing and friendships will develop. I met a future girlfriend while mountain biking...
What do you like to do? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some ideas:
If you're unafraid of your klutziness, join a dance troupe. Or a theatre group. You'd be surprised; most such organizations desperately need someone to do lighting and such, and are woefully ignorant of basics. So if you can wire a lightswitch, can follow a script, you can be a stagehand or a technical director.
Volunteer for trail building. OK, this only works if you're an outdoor person, but that's where the sort of women I like hang out. You can build a trail in a local park, get to work next to some really good looking women, and perhaps have something to talk about - especially if you can keep your mouth shut and listen to eco babble about salmon runs and invasive species.
Or....
Anyway, find an activity that's not a dating meatmarket. Someplace where your social awkwardness (if such exists) is irrelevant, where you're working toward a common goal, and pretty soon you'll find some fellow tree planter or trail builder or invasive-species puller is asking you to come out next weekend to do something else.
The whole idea is that if you set out to find "fellow geeks" you'll end up in a room full of guys with stilted conversations about geek stuff. If you set out to do something different, and are honest and accepting and funny about your ineptitude, you will meet some really cool people.
Re:Fellow geeks? (Score:3, Insightful)
I like how you think. There's something to be said for finding a niche.
When in doubt, volunteer (Score:5, Insightful)
The need is huge, the hands very limited, and the job has awesome fringe benefits: you like the person in the mirror and you work with some people who are willing to stop yakking long enough to actually help people.
Re:The only place I actually enjoy shopping. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Join a sports club (Score:3, Insightful)
Join a (sports) club - the most common way to meet people. Real people. And don't worry if you're not that physically strong; join a cards or chess club or so: mind sports are also sports. As geek you probably have the brains for it. And especially when joining a mind sport club you have a good chance there are males and females playing together.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is one of those things that a nerd can't ask normal people and get an answer worth two cents.
Ask a normal person how to be social and they'll list a million things that the nerd can't do/doesn't understand/won't get the nerve to go through with. Ask a slashdotter, and while the advice may not be so great, at least the nerd should be capable of doing it.
Or.. to summarize (Score:2, Insightful)
Bitches are crazy, don't bother.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:4, Insightful)
Screw Up. A lot. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Relax (Score:4, Insightful)
I see your point, but it's just how I talk. I did not spend any particular time or effort making that up. At one point I tried to simplify my talking and it just ended up being condescending.
Some things you have to change, they're not important to who you are, other things are important and you should keep.
Classic geek example, geeks can sometimes ignore personal hygiene as unimportant or at least unimportant compared to the obsession of the moment. Being filthy hopefully isn't a core interest. That's the sort of thing you do something about. If you are intellectual, you may hold back on the geekiness when interacting with people at work, you don't strike up a conversation about the latest Linux distro, you don't insult people for liking pop television. But if you're interested in someone, feigning stupidity or feigning interest in things you cannot stand is lying to her and lying to yourself. That's not something to compromise on.
You said you're looking for a geek girl so at least you're not making the mistake of wanting the cheerleader when you have nothing in common with the cheerleader.
You have the right idea that you need to increase social interactions and increase contact in the right circles. The question is where and how. Some people live in good cities for this kind of thing, others don't. If you can surround yourself with like-minded people or simply compatible people, the law of averages says you should meet someone.
The thing to remember is you can't win them all. Not everyone will like you. But it's good to develop faking skills as a social lubrication. The jerk you have to work with on a project, learn to fake enjoyment or at least suppress your disgust, it'll make life easier, not rocking the boat. It only makes you a jerk if you do this sort of thing to ingratiate yourself to someone to get something out of them.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't matter. Ladies will appreciate that you're making an effort and the fact that you're clueless makes you harmless (i.e. approachable and not-a-threat should you approach them). As long as you don't get embarrassed and act confident and persistent while stumbling forward, it can actually work in your favor. Some nice girl may even offer to help out as long as you're not just cursing yourself and getting frustrated.
Worth a try no matter what. Better to strike out than be the ball boy stuck polishing the bat.
Re:Was Slashdot This Fucking Lame 10 Years Ago? (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, it was always this lame. The signal to noise ratio may have dipped slightly, the interface has gotten shittier, and many of us have gotten older and more crotchety, but it was never as cerebral as people like to remember it. Even now, the level of discourse here is quite a bit above most sites that allow comments. The only thing that's really sunk significantly is the quality of the trolls.
Re:Go old school (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, you're probably best off finding friends at a LARP club or a game club of some kind. There are just too many types of geek who will be interested in computing and so any attempt to find friends/relationships amongst Linux geeks will be futile. Too large a collection of too many utterly divergent personalities.
No, you need to find a way to isolate a much, much smaller pool of geeks, ones who share multiple interests in common with you, and the only way to do that is to find groups that share your interests.
(Looking online very, very rarely works, mostly because online spaces allow people to be totally dishonest. If there's no honest representation, you cannot find people by presupposing they are being honest.)
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd recommend going to the dance lessons only if you legitimately want to learn how to dance. Your attitude while at the lessons and social dance events will definitely play a HUGE role in how successful you might be in your secondary endeavor. If you go only because you want to meet women, you'll likely come off as desperate and creepy (I've heard plenty of girls complaining about this). You'll also become very discouraged as you see the members of the opposite sex flocking towards either the more experienced dancers or those with better attitudes (not always the same people).
If you do indeed want to learn to dance then go and have fun (it really is a lot of fun). If you are having fun then odds are your follow is having fun which is a very good thing. So look at some videos on youtube and find a style that you like with dance schools in your area. Personally, I recommend some type of swing dance (take your pick). It's not that hard to pick up the basics and get you on the dance floor. Also, swing dancers tend to not take things as seriously as latin dancers might.
Get out and do stuff (Score:2, Insightful)
Nobody just shows up to your door and asks if you want to date or hang out.
Lots of above posters have suggested great things. The biggest thing to remember is to just DO SOMETHING.
Go to a class - cooking, dancing, photography, poetry, reading, etc
Develop a physical hobby - working out, martial arts, running, biking, climbing, hiking, tennis, soccer, basketball, softball
Go to a book store
Go to the mall
Go to a bar
Go to a club
Yes, online works too. Match.com, craigslist, meetup, etc etc
If you want to do geeky things, find a D&D game, or a LAN party, or whatever
Probably the best place to find geeky girls is on a college campus. Go find out where the engineering and computer science departments are or find out where those people like to get together.
The thing about being social is - you just have to BE social. Put yourself in social activities and social situations and you will have the opportunity to be social!
Get outside and do things
Re:Fellow geeks? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've met quite a few gorgeous women in "non-geek" settings. They love that I'm smart and quirky, and I make a great living. It sells itself. Just be confident and find things you like to do socially, and the rest will work itself out.
I think the most important tip everyone seems to give here is to get out and about. No women likes a couch potato, even geek girls like to go out and show off their tail feathers. Besides, they gotta show you off and impress other women. Think of yourself like a Gucci bag. A cock shaped Gucci bag that knows complex mathematics and earns a paycheck.
Just work on it. (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, you will not be as successful in your career if you aren't socially adept. I'm an Engineer, and I spend about 50% of my time at work doing social things - meetings, proposals, talking to vendors, working with technicians, technologists, and tradespersons. Another 30% of my time is shopping - procuring parts, calling suppliers, etc. Most of the rest is inspecting drawings, and I'd say that at a max, 1% is technical work that I learned at school and I give that to co-op students.
Second, you will not be successful in your career if you do nothing but that all the time. A tagline I saw here was, "would you trust a brain surgeon that tinkered on animals for fun in his spare time?" There are very good suggestions in this thread, and you should start a "down tools" policy at home. NO CODING. Make dinner for yourself to start. Learn to play a musical instrument and join a community band (some offer free lessons to beginner players.). Take up a sport where you work with other people.
The good news is that, in DnD terms, CHA is a stat that can be faked and it gains by use. The more you fake it, the less you have to fake it because you'll actually get better at the social aspects of interpersonal relationships.
I am married and have two kids, for what that's worth.
Re:step one (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Learn to dance (Score:4, Insightful)
That sounds like a bad idea. Not so much the dance classes, but actually meeting someone there. If you can't talk to chick drunk in a bar, no way you're going to strike up a conversation during dance lessons that will work out for you.
Here's what worked for me: find a cause, and volunteer. I got involved with Special Olympics, myself. Plenty of volunteer opportunities, and lots of rewards regardless of whether you meet anyone or not (but - you will). Just find something you can support. Local animal shelters are always looking for help. You can find soup kitchens and food banks, too, if you're into that, but less prospects for decent social interaction. Lots of community organizations get involved with fundraisers that involve beer trucks and bands - lots of opportunities there.
Re:Was Slashdot This Fucking Lame 10 Years Ago? (Score:3, Insightful)
Even now, the level of discourse here is quite a bit above most sites that allow comments. The only thing that's really sunk significantly is the quality of the trolls.
The level of discourse is what keeps people coming back. Sometimes I just want to read a good debate. Is there a better place?
As for the trolls, they keep me laughing, too.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
Dancing is definitely a great way to meet people and if meeting women is what you want then you will find very few places better (where else can you take someone from their friends for one-on-one time without looking like a complete jerk?). It also helps build confidence and gives you a great opportunity to talk to all people. In the circles I dance in (mostly latin dancing) most people talk to anyone. If you're alone then you will find that people will often talk to you and if you become talented (IT people, especially developers, also have a mind for patterns so picking up the basics should be quick) you will have men and women coming up and talking to you. Sure this is anecdotal but I've come across a few IT workers out dancing who can relate.
Another sport which I do that I've found great to meet people of similar mind is Capoeira. That is a sport that will keep you insanely fit and is full of the more geeky of us. I also find that when you take up a social activity like these, or any which you enjoy, you will have something immediately in common with other people which is what is needed to start friendships.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
My experience is that the Swing Dancing scene is very IT friendly - seems to be something about Lindy Hop that appeals to the nerd brain. I'd avoid professional instructors and dance studios unless they are actively involved in the dance scene in your community. Some brand name studios have been known to be more interested in trying to sell classes than let their students engage with the local dance scene. Maybe try looking for a local swing dancing club or a dance night that has classes associated with it.
Though people often say things like "I've got 2 left feet", the reality is that if you can walk you can learn to dance swing or salsa.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
Thanks for the laugh.
Laugh there may be, but there is also a lesson. Enter a relationship and get a barrelful of quarrels. There is only one way to exit a fight with a woman - by accepting your fault and apologizing, regardless of who really is guilty (if there is anyone, and if there is anything to fight over - neither of that is guaranteed.)
If you are a logical person (a geek usually is) then your fate is even worse; you will learn very soon that women have their own kind of logic, best illustrated by various persons in Lewis Carroll's writings. (Note - "illustrated", not "explained." The latter can't be done.)
All in all, if you are a strong, independent person who wants to remain such, you will encounter too many fights and your relationships will fail. Hans Reiser is an example; he could not break himself and switch into "Yes, Dear!" mode. If you are a weak, meek person who gladly submits to someone's else diktat, you will do well for a while, but eventually you will be dumped as useless. You will have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to adjust to the demands of the woman. One of my friends explained it as follows: "At first it's difficult, but eventually you get used to it."
Another catch: if you want to marry a woman you will, as matter of fact, "marry" her entire family. One of my friends got seriously burned by that, not paying attention to what his GF's parents are up to (religious fanatics.) He got away with large losses.
Another catch: a woman will have interests that are far away from your interests. (I presume you will not marry a geek, they are rare and many are too independent to marry anyway.) Are you ready to spend your money on her clothes, clothes and clothes? Most women are bad at controlling their spending, so it stops only when your wallet is empty and your c/c is overdrawn. Are you OK with that? There will be of course need to get "many" children (as if you need any) and don't you say "no" to that. Are you ready for that too?
One more comment: you will find the highest density of happiest people at the court clerk's office where final divorce papers are issued. Modern family is overrated, IMO; a man today does not really need a wife; a man may need a woman occasionally, but that's a completely different deal.
Re:step one (Score:3, Insightful)
It implies a certain contempt
Really? I simply see it as the counterpart to cyberspace.
(Now that is a prefix I hate. Cyber-this and cyber-that. It's like the song "God Bless the USA". Nice, the first 85,000 times, but then you want to go postal. I still can't stand hearing it, 24.5 years later.
Re:Not a matter of where (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a world of socially awkward women desperate for someone to show some interest in them. Be confident, don't fear rejection, and make the women that show interest in you feel desirable and attractive.
Re:step one (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:step one (Score:3, Insightful)
he wants a relationship with a female geek.
This is a real limiting factor and almost self-defeating. The female-geek to male-geek ratio is low. You can find them, but unless you're really set on being with a geek-girl you should be open to other types of women. Other suggestions people here have made are good.
Re:Really? (Score:2, Insightful)
To the people recommending "get religion" (Score:1, Insightful)
Bad idea. Get the wrong one and you will regret it. Either way, you will end up selling out. Buying into a decaying belief system just to get friends is a moral compromise of epic proportions.
Re:Get a motorcycle! (Score:4, Insightful)
You're onto something there, but I think the bike doesn't have everything to do with it - your best advice is in your later steps.
The things women most dislike about geeks is there lack of personal style/confidence - in the "selection" code of human behaviour, these latter traits speak volumes about class/earning potential. Yes, some may argue that this is a trend that should have been left in the stone ages, but unfortunately we're still clinging to many of our old methods as we head into more intellectual climes.
I've been an IT guy since around a year and a half now, taking a break from a photography career of twenty years, and I can say as far as my social life goes, my style habits saved me. My present work doesn't interest my "usual" entourage at all (save for my closest friends), so I've had to turn to other networks for social - er - development. I've found that most people don't ~care~ what trade you do after you make it past the "first impression" stage.
So, yeah, definitely get into taking care of your "look" - as long as do it seriously, for you, with passion, it may at least give you a foot in the door.
Re:step one (Score:5, Insightful)
Some key things:
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
While your comments "sound" like they hold a ring of truth to them they are full of stereotypes that don't hold water, I'm married 7+ years now, relationships for geeks are just like any other relationship, "GIVE AND TAKE" you will win some arguments you will lose some, sometimes you'll be right sometimes you'll be wrong, sometimes you'll have to do "FAMILY" things, sometimes you'll have to do "GIRLY" things (read chick flicks, girl shopping).
BUT the answer to any successful relationship is "GIVE AND TAKE" you aren't going to have it all your own way, it's not all about what you want and what you want to do, remember the person you are with "HAS A MIND OF THEIR OWN" they need to have their mind stimulated too, they need to do things they want to do, and that doesn't mean letting them go out on their own, that means spending time with them doing what they want, remember they chose to be with you because they wanted to "be WITH you" not just spend time with you when it's convenient to "YOU".
and take it from me, you will "fight" it's inevitable people living together tend to get in each others way get on each others nerves and occasionally say or do the wrong thing at the wrong time, it's human nature, just take a look around you there are more than enough pointers in the world to show you the truth.
the USA is a prime example (although I'm English and have seen it even more in the UK) you have gangs of people who can't stand to be next door to each other, the Bloods and the Crips, the Aryans/whites and African-American people, straights and gays, most aussie can't stand to hear "Abbo's" going on about how it's their country and aussies are just visitors or worse invaders (in truth that is exactly what the aborigines are, invaders so what does that make them?), but then it gets worse, whole countries can't stand their neighbours and fight constantly, the second world war happened because of this very argument (although you could say "Hitler was the whole reason" one man does not a world war make)
However you find your mate, be prepared to work at it a little each day each week each month each year, you don't just get a partner and be happy, you work at it, you accept some loses and you don't "rub it in" when you win.
7+ years and it's working for me, and I married a "Mexican Irish" girl, Red hair and a stubborn temper of 2 countries.
Re:step one (Score:4, Insightful)
however, wtf is "meatspace"? I have *never* heard this term used before.
It's the greater monkeysphere.
Re:Be yourself ... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's amazing how much of this thread is about action, and how little about traction. The Seligman video I watching this morning on TED discusses how psychiatry is devoted to getting people from -infinity (suicidal) to zero (empty, but not distressed); there hasn't been much study about how to get people from zero to something better.
A lot of the advice here is from the -infinity to zero camp: having none to having some. You could end up with someone you're not very well suited to, who doesn't really see you for who you are (see the "mold like putty" post), and with few emotional skills to make a relationship last more than three months.
Women have finely tuned sensors about men who are posing for effect. If a woman doesn't have this skill, she's nothing but trouble herself.
90% of success in relationships comes from listening skills, mostly of the non-verbal variety. The safest place to start an intimate conversation with a women you don't know very well is about her relationships: family members or close friends. If you have the knack of non-verbal communication, you'll pick up many small clues from body language during the rambling chit-chat. Note that most women tend to be peace-makers at heart, so if a chick is rambling endlessly about a relationship and your head is starting to spin from all the mindless detail (e.g. dress colour selection as a bridesmaid) there is usually some relationship tension hiding in there.
The next step is to engage the emotional clues you're getting with your own emotional content. It's hard to ask sensitive questions if you sound like you're filling out an insurance claim form. It works better to go "I was listening to you the other day and I started to get this feeling, so I started to wonder if there was more to your story." The first five words will catch most women off guard, the rest of it is fairly non-directive, and the woman will regard it as a small trophy that you, as a man, admit to having emotional responses. She'll want to affirm your bravery by telling more of the story.
Even if I pose this as a bit of gambit, you're best off being completely authentic. Note that this is hard, delicate work. Inauthenticity is a kind of lie, and lies become hard to remember.
If you're not insulting with your content, don't be too afraid of occasional conflict. Women tend to seek resolution, so you're almost certain to be given a chance to redeem yourself. At this point, be gentle, but act like you have a backbone. As much as women will try to mold you, they get cranky if they have too much success at this. At the end of the day, you can't rely on putty.
Women tend to be more straightforward about their emotions with their close friends than their romantic partners. Another detail it is important to bear in mind is that women experience the same range of emotions as men, including dark emotions of anger and hostility, but they tend to dress it up differently, and the rules are complicated about when this can be openly discussed (with some women, never, but these are not choice companions).
No matter how good you become with your communication skills, your biology is down there shuffling the deck, making things at the surface confusing as hell. Women tend to assume that if you're not confused by your emotions at some point, you aren't fully invested. A little bit of volatility proves you're alive. So don't be afraid once in a while to venture off script.
In the long run your sanity will be much improved if you reach the state of being where you can say "vive la différence" about all this heartache and really mean it.
The number one predictor of a successful romance is shared value systems, and the number one predictor of a successful long term relationship is emotional engagement. Eventually, even great sex becomes a matter of psychology and emotion, and for that, you need to find something in yourself worth sharing.
Re:Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is one of those things that a nerd can't ask normal people and get an answer worth two cents.
Nope. If you are interested in intimate relations with females, the answer is the same for geeks and non-geeks alike. The analogies are different.
You have all the hardware you need. You just need to reprogram it a bit. You need to develop a script for socialising. Learn to talk to women without trying to hit on them. If anything, concentrate on not falling for them. Certainly don't ask for dates, initially don't even try to make friends with them.
The rude bit will follow naturally enough in its own good time.
Re:Get a motorcycle! (Score:4, Insightful)
I just want to ask: when did dark and brooding (also known as the "David Boreanaz douchebag look") become the ultimate in cool? What happened to bright and righteous?
Oh, wait, Christianity. Never mind.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:4, Insightful)
Go to a dance instructor. You've got the money. Pay for lessons. Then go to group dance lessons. Meet people there and then get groups going to dance clubs.
All your problems will disappear.
I have to confirm that this is a really good idea. As the very least you will learn to be comfortable around girls. *Attractive* girls, since this is the kind of girls that mostly go to the dancing lessons. Most unattractive girls are to shy to do that. This ability alone can help you dramatically. There is a downside, though: most of the girls will be married or in the LTR, because... well, first because all attractive girls are :) You have to learn to ignore that. Second, because were they not married they wouldn't be hanging out on dancing lessons, they would go some place where they can meet single men.
Also, you have to hang out with guys too, make a lot of new male friends. When you do that, follow the most valuable advice of social life I ever got in my life: say "yes" to every invitation. In a matter of weeks, you'll be choosing, which girl to hang out with.
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:5, Insightful)
And besides that, its kind of stupid to try to find yourself a geek girlfriend. It may sound nice first, but your world viewing will be really limited and she will be just another nerdy thing there. I have a girlfriend that isn't really that nerdy at all, and shes dragged me to places I wouldn't otherwise go, but its always been fun in the end then and I get to see totally new aspect of life, not just the computer and internet. People need a push to do something different, and thats the perfect and most fun push. So dont again limit your activies to the nerdy stuff.
Now the thing isn't at all about what you do or what you're interested in. You just have to make it sound *interesting* and *create your personal style* that will stand you off from the group. That's the most critical part that most geeks dont see. They just try to act "normal" and end up looking shy and non-interesting. Most girls dont want "just another normal guy". Cocky but fun stories or talking works great btw, I landed my own gf by asking her questions noone else dared to ask and told her stuff noone else woulnd't dare to tell, but in a funny and laughting way. It also makes you interesting and creates attraction, and in the end way more open relationship aswell.
Non-geeky girls also tend to be a bit cuter and better looking too ;) (sorry slashdot girls, you're sexy tho!)
Labeling (Score:3, Insightful)
People like to label things, it makes things easier: you can skip the nuances. You are not a geek, you're a guy with technical interests, introverted character traits. And probably some character traits that are not often associated with geekyness, like being a great story teller or being good at some sport - other than chess ;-)
Start looking at yourself as a cool guy with a geeky job, because you happen to like that. Gives you a whole different self-image. Cultivate a few non-geek capabilities or learn some. Learn how to listen to other people instead of constantly talking about yourself or the things that interest you - not saying that you do this but I see it happen often enough. If you ask about them, if you (try) genuinely to understand them instead of explaining yourself, they will like you.
And then meet a lot of people, the dancing thing is OK, but making a habit of talking to people when you meet them helps lowering barriers - while waiting for a lift, standing in line,...
Re:Go old school (Score:2, Insightful)
Why doesn't he just find a hobby he likes like music, martial arts, or movies? That way he doesn't have to fake interest - women will spot that in a second anyways.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:5, Insightful)
I cannot agree more. LEARN TO DANCE, and have fun at it. You don't need a partner to take lessons, but you may enjoy group classes.
1) Many are beginners, just like you.
2) It can be a real challenge, if (like me) you feel like you have no sense of rhythm.
3) As you learn, you will get more confident.
Later on, you will be able to be at ANY party, any formal gathering, any wedding, company dinner, or WHATEVER, and be able to dance. You will hear a waltz, a tango, some swing, or the like, and be able to ask a lady to dance with you -- and KNOW that you know the dance. You will be able to lead, and probably dance better than anyone else at the party (because how many guys takes dance lessons??) Think of it like DDR, but the way you increase your score is by making your partner look awesome.
Having the confidence to know that you rock at something can let you feel much less intimidated. Just as presenting about your awesome code or awesome geeky accomplishment isn't so hard, you can similarly be willing to talk or demonstrate about dance. It's quite cool. I wish I had actually taken more lessons than the ones before my wedding. ;)
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
Your assumption that I'm female just shows how much of an ass you really are.
How could I assume if you already told me that you are a man? Quote: "I don't know about you, but I think of women as other human beings with feelings and such". I simply used the dual meaning of the word "you" to create a funny but polite response. Everything else in that sentence is collateral damage :-)
It's possible for men to be empathetic to feminist ideology
I got that already, thanks! :-)
Your blatant acceptance and preaching of stereotypes is offensive to me as a human being.
Sorry about that. But you know, a lot of stereotypes have a grain of untruth in them.
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:5, Insightful)
Amen. First step is for the poor guy to stop calling himself a geek and seeing it as some sort of badge of identity. Treat people as people and why on Earth does he think he has to find someone who labels themselves according to some stereotype. Sharing some interests is fine. But the main things is you get on and fill the roles in each others lives that you both want to. You meet girls the same way anyone else on the planet does. You go out, you try to be fun and you mix with people until you find someone you like and who likes you. There is no special rule for people who... well, whatever the definition of "geek" is because I certainly don't know what the definition is
Re:Probably an obligatory link, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Eric Raymond's essay's are very informative, but this 'dating' business somewhere down the middle is where his agenda really shows up. What's all this nonsense about polyamory that strewn in the middle like some kind of enlightening testimony? Does he not realize that he is giving advice to try something most people consider absolutely disgusting?
One of the well-spoken skanks he supposedly interviewed is quoted to say that both partners have to 'work even harder' in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, no shit. Emotional dis-attachment requires extra work to pretend everything is OK? Wow, I'm sure we couldn't have figured that out on our own. And then she goes on to say that the pale, uninitiated geek like the one who posted this slashdot story, is supposed to try 'sexual relationships' to appreciate the difference between them and romantic relationships. Wow. Live, human subjects. You're supposed to degrade yourself to a lesser primate and do unspeakable things in order to educate yourself?
What a load of bull. These people, these outspoken veterans of the 'educated sex' scene, rarely lead happy lives with a partner. They hide themselves from society because they know they're plain weird, and they present their views online as if they are humanity's guiding light for successful relationships. The only truly content people practicing polyamory for any extended period have one thing in common: they SHUT UP about it, and they will tell you they do NOT recommend it to anyone at all. Normal relationships are a friggin pain in the ass, and these clowns are recommending that you go around screwing different people based on sexual desire and communal love, as long as you sit down and plan everything like some sort of big hiking trip?
I do not mean to be overly negative, but I have lived all over the world, in different cultures and among different races, and I love science. People who talk like this man are an insult to science, because they have no idea what they are saying. Who said jealousy was something to be overcome? It is to be controlled, not overcome. It evolved in the most basic animals for a reason, you know. I don't understand why the sexual urge is something to be encouraged while the other things we evolved to keep it in check should be taken out of the picture. If you want to sleep around, science is not going to make you look prettier. The feelings we have we ALL evolved, and are all useful, not just the ones you want to partake in. Our society is barely in one piece already you crazy idiots.
How can you look your partner in the eye and tell them you love them when she knows you may or may not have been trying to pick up her best friend, because you've both 'agreed' to it? How could she bury herself in your arms when tomorrow you could be in the arms of a complete stranger whose name you might not even know? How can a man trust a woman with his home and his children when she can be spreading her legs to pretty much anyone the very same day, because hey, you're both signing that contract? Sex is the urge to reproduce, and it is nothing else.
It is the urge to love and be loved that is very elaborate, and beautiful, and strange, and not necessarily linked to the reproductive cycle. Things that sound scientific and modern are not necessarily less disgusting than those that expose themselves to the barbarity of what they are in less elaborate terms. When you spread your legs, you are spreading your legs. When you bust a load, you bust a load. Sugar coating the terminology does not make it any more elegant or sophisticated.
Finally, before I quit the tirade for the night, I'd like to say that the most successful and most long lasting relationships across the world are the product of chance, just like the 'engineered' ones. You meet someone on the metro, or at school or at work or in the street. You think it will make a difference if you sleep with them first, or if you date for years, or you marry just 2 weeks later.. life experiences will show you it rarely matters. The 'primiti
Re:Here are some ideas... (Score:3, Insightful)
It also could have a dual meaning of conforming with all of the other new testament teachings that shunned material wealth and instead encouraged a life helping the poor and disadvantaged.
But that second and obvious meaning is shunned by the American Christian establishment since it's too pinko-commie-socialist for their political tastes.
The modern Jesus wants you to have a hot-tub, pool, boat and nice large house while fighting tooth and nail while cutting funding to homeless shelters and other lazy bums.
"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys."
Even a cursory glance at the new testament reveals that Jesus was a socialist, advocated socialism and would be more likely to side with Sweden than the US on just economic policy..
Re:Go old school (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus LARPing is the deepest pit of gaming hell.
Re:CL (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Go old school (Score:2, Insightful)
Very true.
When you like technology, you want to be able to share your passion/hobby with people.
And you go look for geek friends.
Yet, I have found that those who became my best friends are not geeks at all.
It's amazing to discover how many things you have in common with people who can barely start a computer.
Music, vodka, politics, whatever.
Even shopping with girls can actually be a lot of fun (exhausting though) if you just like those people.
You should train to talk to people you don't know at all in the streets and such.
Often it leads to real disasters but sometimes, you find people who are actually very happy to meet someone and chat for a while.
Might require some training but worth the effort.
Consider vodka or beer if you lack confidence.
Re:Learn to dance (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Here are some ideas... (Score:3, Insightful)
I do agree, that it is usually not going to work, a relationship between an avowed atheist and a Christian, but it will be inevitable that you get better at talking to people with different beliefs and values without getting bigoted (atheists can be very bigotedly anti-religion to the extent they cause the same problems they accuse religion of causing).
But the point is practice at getting along well with people that have ideas you may consider stupid, bodes very well at you being able to get along better with like minded beings.
But there also exist a lot of unreligious people who go to church. They say they believe in God, but they don't follow every rule, obligation and custom of their church/denomination. I didn't say of Christianity, because the basic rules of Christianity are so unbelievably simple, that very few Christians know what they are.
Re:Probably an obligatory link, but... (Score:1, Insightful)
For the love of all things holy, do NOT look to Eric S. Raymond for sex tips.
Get confidence, style, and more. (Score:3, Insightful)
> ...women most dislike about geeks is their lack of personal style/confidence
Confidence and style; also breadth and depth.
The grandparent suggested a motorcycle, but that's just one way to appear confident. Become competent in a few areas outside computer tech; learn and practice things that will give you confidence about your abilities.
Martial arts is one; as you progress, it naturally gives you more confidence. But so does softball and playing a musical instrument. Pick something(s) non-geeky. Try several to find out what you like.
If you are weak in conversational skills, spend time learning and practicing them. Don't overlook Dale Carnegie's books.
Also shift enough of your focus away from tech to be able to converse in some depth about subjects that appeal to non-geeks. That's the depth part.
Don't substitute one obsession for another. Be able to discuss a number of subjects in fair depth. That's the breadth part.
As you acquire greater conversational skills, you learn how to listen and learn from the conversations. You learn how to participate in discussions about subjects you don't know a lot about, because you demonstrate that you are willing and able to listen and learn.
As far as style, avoid the temptation to shortcut by adopting someone else's style; don't just copy someone. Learn a bit about what works for you, and what you're comfortable with.
A portly 5'6" man won't look good in the same style as a lean 6 footer, and he wont look good in the same styles as a 300 pound body-builder.
If you adopt suits and ties but aren't comfortable in them, it shows. Being comfortable, in clothes and situations, is part of being confident.
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing like a little 'conversation lubrication' to help you talk to chicks and get laid.
Re:Get a motorcycle! (Score:1, Insightful)
That would be, about 60 years ago. Marlon Brando, James Dean. IIRC.
Re:Great idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
However, there are a few dissimilarities you need to be wary of. Location is one thing; long-distance relationships are not easy. Free time is even worse; my last (and admittedly first) relationship broke down because my GF was so busy with her social life (lots of ultra-important occasions that will never come around again) that I was tempted to get her a copy of Outlook so we could schedule meetings. In the end I told her that she'd have to call me when she has free time for me (which apparently was very rare) and two months later she broke up with me because I never came over anymore.
That relationship left me with two (actually more but the rest are too discouraging to mention) insights: First, I'm happy I'm not that social a person; having your social life be equivalent to a part-time job really messes up your schedule. Second, I'm not entering into a relationship with a person with that kind of social life again. I'm not going to spend twenty hours a week meeting people I don't know on the off chance of perhaps actually spending an afternoon with my partner (if I even get invited/can afford to come along, that is).
Re:Get a motorcycle! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless of course you can't stand bars. Ihave been in only one where it was any fun most bars are boring unless you are talkative. If you don't care about talking to random strangers then bars are useless. You haveto do something to waitfor thehours that women actually show up that aren't taken
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Go old school (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but you need to fix yourself before really becoming concerned with establishing relationships with women. I guess you really don't have to, since there surely are women that would be more tolerating of your character, but if you want to have any sort of diversity while dating, it's highly recommended that you do so. To do that, you need to find your flaws and work at resolving them. What is it about you that prevented you from becoming a more sociable person? Is it something that you think you can solve?
To help in answering those questions, just go outside. Take a walk, talk to people, ask how people's days are going (which is actually a VERY good conversation starter, especially if you're new to starting conversations). The only way to become more social is by meeting more people, and the best way to do that (in real life, of course) is by talking to them. Not all of them will be like you, but you'll have to learn to accept and adapt. (This does NOT imply assimilation; in fact, if you're losing your own character, you're doing it wrong.)
You can, of course, stick with your own group and find people who are just as socially awkward as you think you are, which would be funny, as that is the basis for socialization. However, if you really want to expand your worldview and become more cultured, you'll have to get out there.
Good luck, dude.
Re:step one (Score:3, Insightful)
This attitude is potentially crippling.
Knowledge of the specific term "meatspace" should not be confused with the real goal - finding someone who has enough shared interest to build a friendship and who is accepting of the geek in question.
It is damn near impossible to find someone who shares all of your interests. That is also a potentially huge mistake. One of the major joys in a relationship is being exposed to new things and growing as a person.
Spewing off-putting tech jargon is not a good way to woo.
Re:How to be sexy by ESR (Score:3, Insightful)
Which in some ways adds strength to his argument: if he can get any looking like that, he must really know what he's doing.
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:4, Insightful)
Most women who go to bars are there to socialize with their friends, not to get picked up. The ones who go there to get picked up by strangers are not the kind you can build a long-term, meaningful relationship with.
Women expect to get hit on in bars, so their defenses are completely up.
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. When I was 18-19 and I told my girlfriend that most guys are there to pick up girls or to get sex, she was like "no way". It seems its totally different for a girl to go out to bar than what it is with guys, hence the "pick up" defences aswell. They're mostly there to hang out with friends and socialize.
Aspergers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where Does a Geek Find a Social Life? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, to be fair, most guys go ANYWHERE with the intent of picking up girls or to get sex...
Sure girls go to hang with friends, that's where you have to know the ways to separate them from the 'herd'. Having a friend play wingman is quite helpful.
Re:step one (Score:1, Insightful)
No. God no, do not do this. I'm a guy that has a hard time getting rid of women often enough to know that this will creep the living shit out of any woman that's had a stalker, if she finds them. Essentially, the more interested you are the more notes you will keep and the creepier it gets. DO NOT DO THIS Better to blame your memory loss on that ounce of weed you smoked last week and that keg of booze you drank last night. (lie)
Re:step one (Score:5, Insightful)
ProTip:
The wierdos are often awesome in bed.
Re:Really? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's the 'outcast' factor.
There are, in general, two groups that have higher percentages of openly gay people in them. And in both case, it's probably not because there are more gay people, it's just they're more willing to be 'out' in those groups.
The first group is any other group that has 'outcast' status. Outcasts are, in general, more accepting of other outcasts. Likewise, if someone already is an outcast, coming out of the closet can be easier. Because they'll hardly become more outcast.
The second group, if anyone cares, are the 'secure', usually the financially secure. People who have enough money and whatnot that they actually don't care what other people think of them, because that can't hurt them.
Re:Go old school (Score:3, Insightful)
A perfect example of using a geek-oriented online network to establish contact with a woman. Well done ;-)