Harry writes "The unfortunate news about Apple rejecting a Commodore 64 emulator from the iPhone App Store inspired me to compare the C64 to the new iPhone 3G S, in more detail than any rational person is likely to compare them, ever again. If nothing else, it's a snapshot of just how far technology has come since the C64's release in August of 1982."
I've got one in my garage. Still works. 170K floppy AND tape drive. I've got an Amiga 500, too. Even have an old Apple III (or was it IIi?). Sometimes called "the museum" by the wife. AFAIK they all work still.
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday June 23 2009, @10:24AM (#28439445)
It's quite clear what Apple approved was selling individual C64 games or apps individually that used an emulator underneath. Not a full fledged emulator that would let you program your own games, or play whatever C64 software you have.
Apple probably read their website and realized their goal was quite different then what they were told earlier.
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
I do wonder about Apple's policy there. Ostensibly, it's to stop you running an unapproved app by running it in an emulator, but they're perfectly happy to approve apps which pull down arbitrary and equally unapproved content from the web.
I do wonder about Apple's policy there. Ostensibly, it's to stop you running an unapproved app by running it in an emulator, but they're perfectly happy to approve apps which pull down arbitrary and equally unapproved content from the web.
Is it really any different than the Hot Coffee fiasco? For every person of age X who downloaded the mod, a dozen of the same age were probably downloading hardcore zebu porn MPGs but that isn't directly tied to a game, so is business as usual.
It's not FUD if it's true. Are you even reading what you're writing?
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
It's okay to use this device that you've bought for running Apple-approved software, but not for running arbitrary code. That's not FUD, it's Apple's policy. If you're happy with a device that has this kind of restriction, then that's great, enjoy yourself.
ActionScript and Java run in a sandbox, but they're rejected too.
Javascript or Brainfuck also run arbitrary code in a sandbox, but they're not rejected.
Welcome to the topsy-turvy world of the Apple app store, where any app could be removed at any time, because they could all be interpretted as infringing some part of the SDK rules.
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
Except it's not clear. There's a Brainfuck interpreter [apple.com], as well as a Z-machine interpreter [apple.com]. Both execute arbitrary code which can be downloaded from a remote source, or entered right on the device itself.
Well, actually.... There are at least TWO web servers for the iPhone IF it has been jailbroken. Apache and Lighttpd are both available in Cydia and, probably, Icy.
(Yes, I know that the 3G S has yet to be jailbroken, but all other iPhone OS devices have, so I think it deserves a mention.)
Harry McCracken Says: June 21st, 2009 at 10:20 pm
@Kevin: Also a good point–when the 3G S is jailbroken, I'll try to update.
Last time someone posted it the thing held up remarkably well because the author cheated a bit and made his webserver completely stateless, making the only limitation the speed of the network interface and processor. The site would take a long time to respond, but it never crashed the way most webservers (or, more often, their attached databases) do when slammed with requests.
True, but at the time, 2D hardware features were as much a bullet-point as 3D acceleration today, and the C64 had some quite impressive 2D tricks up its sleeve.
It also ran at half the clock speed of the 6502 (6502 = 2Mhz, 6510 = 1Mhz). I used to code stuff on the C64 demo scene. What I really miss nowadays is the fact that it was the last time I fully knew all of the internals of a machine I was coding for.
Of course, the AT&T contract was only required in the USA; in parts of the rest of the world dial-up access was available without a contract from a phone company in the '80s. The price comparison doesn't include the contract for the iPhone. Comparing it to one on a pre-pay contract would be more fair, which brings the C-64 a lot closer (until you account for inflation).
The iPhone wins on portability, although the C-64 could drive an external display including a large TV (no HD support though).
The iPhone wins on portability, although the C-64 could drive an external display including a large TV (no HD support though).
It did have s-video though. While the plug was nothing like the current standard, a Commodore 64 monitor used the same luminance and chrominance setup. To make the slashdotting of a frontpage-linked site a tiny bit worse:
The iPhone 3G S has 4,000 times the RAM (256MB) for one-third the price (with an AT&T contract)
Your price comparison is not really good. You should compare an uncontracted iphone price (500 or 600) to that of a c64. The contract lock is worth money - especially considering how much you buy to maintain your service. THen again you get more from the contract (phone service, access to the internet, etc). So a better comparison is the straight phone price to the c64 price.
The iPhone 3G S has 4,000 times the RAM (256MB) for one-third the price (with an AT&T contract)
Your price comparison is not really good. You should compare an uncontracted iphone price (500 or 600) to that of a c64. The contract lock is worth money - especially considering how much you buy to maintain your service. THen again you get more from the contract (phone service, access to the internet, etc). So a better comparison is the straight phone price to the c64 price.
Don't forget to correct for 27 years of inflation! Incidentally, this brings the C64 price to $1,318.59. Beat that, Apple Elitists.
The iPhone might have hardware 3D graphics, but only the C64 had hardware sprites.
This Flash C64 emulator [codeazur.com.br] is pretty nifty. It still needs some work though. I guess the iPhone doesn't support flash, but other phones might be able to run it.
If you want to run a little C64 basic on that emulator, be aware that the key for the double quote character is SHIFT-2. (I can't believe I remembered that!) 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 GOTO 10 RUN
Well, the Atari 8-bit machines had sprites in hardware too, and had it before the C-64 came out.
But that's not why I'm following up. When I read your shift-2 comment, my first thought was "well, of COURSE! Where else would it be? That's not changed in the last 20 years or...
(looking down at my keyboard)
Huh. I guess I've retrained my fingers."
I don't have any problems typing them, but if you asked me, I'd probably say "shift-2" is the location of double quotes.
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday June 23 2009, @10:36AM (#28439697)
They forgot to include FREEDOM. You were free on the C64, no one could stop you from making applications, running them and distributing them freely to friends, who in turn, without big brother watching, could distribute your creations as well. You're not even allowed ot run a python interpreter on the iphone.
And don't tell me about jailbreaking, jailbreaking is a DMCA violation and if AT&T catches you, you will be kicked off their network. You don't have control of your device, with the C64 you did.
Calm down. I agree not only could you write any code you wanted for free but Commodore included the scematics of the C-64! At least they did with mine but I had an early one. Not only that people disassembled the kernel and wrote books that included the listing and nobody sent them a take down notice! That was simpler time full of Compute and Byte magazine and taking your best girl to see ET and WarGames.
That is true. The indispensable "C=64 Advanced Programmer's Guide" included not only a complete Assembly Language reference and detailed memory and bus maps, but a fold-in schematic diagram of the entire machine.
That's ridiculous, you can do all that today as well, except you don't want to because you have an iphone. And anyway, the iphone is probably powerful enough to run an...
I think you have to buy the development key ($99) to deploy to a physical phone, but you can write whatever you like and deploy it to your phone. You can deploy to as many as 50 different phones without going through the app store or buying a site license.
I don't remember for sure - you might even be able to deploy to a phone that's physically connected to your Mac without paying anything.
I agree that you're nowhere near as free on the iPhone as we were on the C64, but it's just wrong to say that we can't run any code we like on our phone.
I think it's also worth pointing out that there are huge potential exploits on a phone that weren't there on a C64. E.g. I could distribute a free app that eventually calls a 1-900 number I own, with no modem sticking out the back for you to disconnect.
I have written and distributed an iPhone app [pharceapp.com] (and written C64 apps), so I'm not just spouting BS.
The only comparison that matters is you could write and run your own code on the C64 and you cannot on the iPhone.
Hmm, I would have thought another important distinction would be that one of them fits in your pocket, and the other is the size of a breadbox, not including the monitor.
Not to dismiss the calls for greater openness on the iPhone, which I fully support, but I can't help but imagine what a typical C64 user back in the day would think about this conversation. "Wait, you want to run a program on y
The article compares the current price of the iPhone with the introductory price of the C=64. A few years in (circa 1984), you could buy a C=64 from K-mart at $90.00 USD. This was convenience, since the cheap power supply tended to burn up and die, and it was sometimes easier and cheaper to just buy a replacement machine. I went through three of the things back then!
http://www.gamebase64.com/ [gamebase64.com] This database has 20000 games. Those are just the ones they've found and it doesn't even include actual applications, only games. The total number of programs for the C-64 is probably far more than 50000.
I saved and saved to get my C64. Way better than that stupid VIC 20.
I have hundreds games for it. About a dozen or so game that I enjoy so much I keep my C64 around and 'load' it up so I can play them. A emulator for the Iphone/touch would be something I would love to have and pay for it - provided it had the games I love to play.
And how does that exactly relate to size? It just looks like a bunch of gibberish mixed with random numbers to my imperialist eyes.!!!
I want pounds and inches you insensitive clod!!!
You don't recognize the traditional Imperial unit of length, the Manchester mule? Defined in 1621 as the length of the Duke of Manchester's prize mule, Jebediah, and equal to exactly 29 handspans, it's the only unit of length a gentleman should use.
Now I should say that at 404mm long, and at a total of 1820 greasemonkeys in weight, that this Commodore 64 is quite the small electronic computer!
Oh well... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
One better? Surely that's at least 63 better.
The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
It's quite clear what Apple approved was selling individual C64 games or apps individually that used an emulator underneath. Not a full fledged emulator that would let you program your own games, or play whatever C64 software you have.
Apple probably read their website and realized their goal was quite different then what they were told earlier.
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I do wonder about Apple's policy there. Ostensibly, it's to stop you running an unapproved app by running it in an emulator, but they're perfectly happy to approve apps which pull down arbitrary and equally unapproved content from the web.
Is it really any different than the Hot Coffee fiasco? For every person of age X who downloaded the mod, a dozen of the same age were probably downloading hardcore zebu porn MPGs but that isn't directly tied to a game, so is business as usual.
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well... you can check this [wikipedia.org] and then answer that yourself...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It could be worse. It could be Xenu [wikipedia.org] porn.
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Informative)
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
It's okay to use this device that you've bought for running Apple-approved software, but not for running arbitrary code. That's not FUD, it's Apple's policy. If you're happy with a device that has this kind of restriction, then that's great, enjoy yourself.
Parent
Re:Flash and Java (Score:4, Insightful)
isn't the C64 emulator a sandbox?
ActionScript and Java run in a sandbox, but they're rejected too.
Javascript or Brainfuck also run arbitrary code in a sandbox, but they're not rejected.
Welcome to the topsy-turvy world of the Apple app store, where any app could be removed at any time, because they could all be interpretted as infringing some part of the SDK rules.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
I would agree with you if it wasn't for the SID player that does the same thing but for C64 music.
Apple are shooting themselves in the foot with their rules. I know what they're trying to do, prevent unlocking of the phone.
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Informative)
Except it's not clear. There's a Brainfuck interpreter [apple.com], as well as a Z-machine interpreter [apple.com]. Both execute arbitrary code which can be downloaded from a remote source, or entered right on the device itself.
Parent
Nice Shapshot! (Score:5, Informative)
Good overview of the two technologies.
One point of correction the iPhone has successful run Apache so it can be used as a web server (for what it's worth). Here's a related article -
http://www.modmyi.com/forums/native-iphone-ipod-touch-app-launches/2665-apache-iphone-how-cool.html [modmyi.com]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
According to the comments on TFA:
So yes
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
So has the Commodore 64:
http://www.c64web.com/ [c64web.com]
Posting that on Slashdot is just cruel...
It would be like someone posting the ZX81 web server [endoftheinternet.org]...
Re:Nice Shapshot! (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
3D acceleration is just the new 2D acceleration (Score:5, Informative)
True, but at the time, 2D hardware features were as much a bullet-point as 3D acceleration today, and the C64 had some quite impressive 2D tricks up its sleeve.
C64 didn't use a 6502 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:C64 didn't use a 6502 (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Nice comparison (Score:2)
Of course, the AT&T contract was only required in the USA; in parts of the rest of the world dial-up access was available without a contract from a phone company in the '80s. The price comparison doesn't include the contract for the iPhone. Comparing it to one on a pre-pay contract would be more fair, which brings the C-64 a lot closer (until you account for inflation).
The iPhone wins on portability, although the C-64 could drive an external display including a large TV (no HD support though).
Re: (Score:2)
The iPhone wins on portability, although the C-64 could drive an external display including a large TV (no HD support though).
It did have s-video though. While the plug was nothing like the current standard, a Commodore 64 monitor used the same luminance and chrominance setup. To make the slashdotting of a frontpage-linked site a tiny bit worse:
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/Commodore_C128/C64C_Video [allpinouts.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare the iPhone 3GS to the Apple IIgs?
Price comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPhone 3G S has 4,000 times the RAM (256MB) for one-third the price (with an AT&T contract)
Your price comparison is not really good. You should compare an uncontracted iphone price (500 or 600) to that of a c64. The contract lock is worth money - especially considering how much you buy to maintain your service. THen again you get more from the contract (phone service, access to the internet, etc). So a better comparison is the straight phone price to the c64 price.
Re:Price comparison (Score:5, Funny)
The iPhone 3G S has 4,000 times the RAM (256MB) for one-third the price (with an AT&T contract)
Your price comparison is not really good. You should compare an uncontracted iphone price (500 or 600) to that of a c64. The contract lock is worth money - especially considering how much you buy to maintain your service. THen again you get more from the contract (phone service, access to the internet, etc). So a better comparison is the straight phone price to the c64 price.
Don't forget to correct for 27 years of inflation! Incidentally, this brings the C64 price to $1,318.59. Beat that, Apple Elitists.
Parent
Progress (Score:3, Interesting)
At least this time Apple rejected something that was actually forbidden by the app store's rules.
Flash emulator (Score:2)
The iPhone might have hardware 3D graphics, but only the C64 had hardware sprites.
This Flash C64 emulator [codeazur.com.br] is pretty nifty. It still needs some work though. I guess the iPhone doesn't support flash, but other phones might be able to run it.
If you want to run a little C64 basic on that emulator, be aware that the key for the double quote character is SHIFT-2. (I can't believe I remembered that!)
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
20 GOTO 10
RUN
Re: (Score:2)
Well, the Atari 8-bit machines had sprites in hardware too, and had it before the C-64 came out.
But that's not why I'm following up. When I read your shift-2 comment, my first thought was "well, of COURSE! Where else would it be? That's not changed in the last 20 years or...
(looking down at my keyboard)
Huh. I guess I've retrained my fingers."
I don't have any problems typing them, but if you asked me, I'd probably say "shift-2" is the location of double quotes.
Joystick + RS232 Bluetooth (Score:2)
Unfair comparison -- didn't include FREEDOM (Score:5, Insightful)
They forgot to include FREEDOM. You were free on the C64, no one could stop you from making applications, running them and distributing them freely to friends, who in turn, without big brother watching, could distribute your creations as well. You're not even allowed ot run a python interpreter on the iphone.
And don't tell me about jailbreaking, jailbreaking is a DMCA violation and if AT&T catches you, you will be kicked off their network. You don't have control of your device, with the C64 you did.
Re:Unfair comparison -- didn't include FREEDOM (Score:5, Insightful)
Calm down.
I agree not only could you write any code you wanted for free but Commodore included the scematics of the C-64! At least they did with mine but I had an early one.
Not only that people disassembled the kernel and wrote books that included the listing and nobody sent them a take down notice!
That was simpler time full of Compute and Byte magazine and taking your best girl to see ET and WarGames.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
That is true. The indispensable "C=64 Advanced Programmer's Guide" included not only a complete Assembly Language reference and detailed memory and bus maps, but a fold-in schematic diagram of the entire machine.
-dZ.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That was simpler time full of Compute and Byte magazine and taking your best girl to see ET and WarGames.
"Best girl" I take it meaning the most complete and functional of your robot companions.
Re: (Score:2)
So you continued to do it tomorrow. Or buy a C64 yourself.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That's ridiculous, you can do all that today as well, except you don't want to because you have an iphone. And anyway, the iphone is probably powerful enough to run an ...
Oh. Never mind.
The only comparison that matters (Score:4, Insightful)
The only comparison that matters is you could write and run your own code on the C64 and you cannot on the iPhone.
You *can* write & run your own code on the iPh (Score:4, Informative)
I think you have to buy the development key ($99) to deploy to a physical phone, but you can write whatever you like and deploy it to your phone. You can deploy to as many as 50 different phones without going through the app store or buying a site license.
I don't remember for sure - you might even be able to deploy to a phone that's physically connected to your Mac without paying anything.
I agree that you're nowhere near as free on the iPhone as we were on the C64, but it's just wrong to say that we can't run any code we like on our phone.
I think it's also worth pointing out that there are huge potential exploits on a phone that weren't there on a C64. E.g. I could distribute a free app that eventually calls a 1-900 number I own, with no modem sticking out the back for you to disconnect.
I have written and distributed an iPhone app [pharceapp.com] (and written C64 apps), so I'm not just spouting BS.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You can. You just need to either jailbreak it, or become an iPhone developer, which is ridiculously easy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The only comparison that matters is you could write and run your own code on the C64 and you cannot on the iPhone.
Hmm, I would have thought another important distinction would be that one of them fits in your pocket, and the other is the size of a breadbox, not including the monitor.
Not to dismiss the calls for greater openness on the iPhone, which I fully support, but I can't help but imagine what a typical C64 user back in the day would think about this conversation. "Wait, you want to run a program on y
Yes, but... (Score:2, Funny)
Price is wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
The article compares the current price of the iPhone with the introductory price of the C=64. A few years in (circa 1984), you could buy a C=64 from K-mart at $90.00 USD. This was convenience, since the cheap power supply tended to burn up and die, and it was sometimes easier and cheaper to just buy a replacement machine. I went through three of the things back then!
-dZ.
You think your Commodore 64 is really neat-o? (Score:5, Funny)
What kinda chip you got in there, a Dorito?
Apple][e (Score:3, Interesting)
10000 apps? I don't think so. (Score:5, Informative)
put it on Android (Score:3, Informative)
Apple rejects anything they think will turn them away from the phone's operation or make changes to it.
PUT IT ON ANDROID and WM. You Won't be rejected there.
No Flash
No competitive Browsers
No File Exploring
No downloading to the phone
and people say I should get an iPhone, there's a couple of reasons NOT to.
I LUV MY C64! (Score:3, Insightful)
I saved and saved to get my C64. Way better than that stupid VIC 20.
I have hundreds games for it. About a dozen or so game that I enjoy so much I keep my C64 around and 'load' it up so I can play them. A emulator for the Iphone/touch would be something I would love to have and pay for it - provided it had the games I love to play.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Attached Physical Keyboard
Re:Couldn't find the size? (Score:4, Funny)
1820g... 404 mm * 216mm * 75mm
And how does that exactly relate to size? It just looks like a bunch of gibberish mixed with random numbers to my imperialist eyes.!!!
I want pounds and inches you insensitive clod!!!
Bill
Parent
Re:Couldn't find the size? (Score:4, Funny)
And how does that exactly relate to size? It just looks like a bunch of gibberish mixed with random numbers to my imperialist eyes.!!!
I want pounds and inches you insensitive clod!!!
You don't recognize the traditional Imperial unit of length, the Manchester mule? Defined in 1621 as the length of the Duke of Manchester's prize mule, Jebediah, and equal to exactly 29 handspans, it's the only unit of length a gentleman should use.
Now I should say that at 404mm long, and at a total of 1820 greasemonkeys in weight, that this Commodore 64 is quite the small electronic computer!
Parent
Re:Units... sigh. (Score:4, Informative)
Well if you really want to nitpick, the 300 bits per second should be 300 baud. But hey, I guess all nitpickers aren't perfect.
Parent