GPS-Based System For Driving Tax Being Field Tested 891
An anonymous reader writes "Apparently, since gas consumption is going down and fuel efficient cars are becoming more popular, the government is looking into a new form of taxation to create revenue for transportation projects. This new system is a 'by-the-mile tax,' requiring GPS in cars so it can track the mileage. Once a month, the data gets uploaded to a billing center and you are conveniently charged for how much you drove. 'A federal commission, after a two-year study, concluded earlier this year that the road tax was the "best path forward" to keep revenues flowing to highway and transportation projects, and could be an important new tool to help manage traffic and relieve congestion. ... The commission pegged 2020 as the year for the federal fuel tax, currently 18.5 cents a gallon, to be phased out and replaced by a road tax. One estimate of a road tax that would cover the current federal and state fuel taxes is 1 to 2 cents per mile for cars and light trucks.'"
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's another really nice tool that has the advantage that EVERY car already has one:
Odometer [wikipedia.org]
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
wtf (Score:1, Insightful)
what the fuck man
Better watch your speed... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Great Idea (Score:5, Insightful)
GPS would be infinitely useful for governments. In addition to tracking mileage they can automatically charge tolls and even issue speeding tickets.
Why not just continue to raise the fuel taxes to generate revenue? That would serve to continue to reduce fuel consumption which would be a good thing.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your odometer can report how much of your mileage was on public roads? Cool!
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not tax fuel?
- consumption is proportional to milage!
- promotes fuel efficiency!
- collection is easy!
- big brother not included!
Or... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not a good replacement (Score:5, Insightful)
There's another really nice tool that has the advantage that EVERY car already has one: Odometer
So who gets the money from that?
Currently if I am driving in a state the state usually gets some percentage of the gas tax.
If you are just checking the odometer, my home state gets all the money even if I travel out of state often?
I don't like the GPS idea one bit, I'm just saying checking the odometer does not solve the problem.
Hidden doubling (or more) of taxes (Score:5, Insightful)
See, the people will revolt if we suddenly double or triple the gas tax, which is 18.5 cents a gallon.
But, since we're going to mandate that all cars get 35 miles per gallon, and then we charge 1 to 2 cents (and it'll be two cents, if not four by the time it gets passed), then that means we've effectively upped the gas tax to between 35 and 70 cents a gallon (or $1.40 by four cents a mile). And the great part is that, just like income tax, they won't see the per gallon increase, they just get a bill at the end of the month that they have to pay.
Way to double, triple, or more the gas tax without looking like it.
Also, by the law of unintended consequences, by removing the tax from the gas, it makes it more cost effective to buy an older, cheaper gas guzzler, than a new, expensive, hybrid car. Thanks for destroying the environment, morons.
Bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Odometer (Score:5, Insightful)
They already do write down the mileage when you get the emissions checked. Not for the safety check I think. The info is in the DMV database. maybe the DMV database is so screwed up that the tax people do not want to touch it.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:faraday cage anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)
GPS can also be fairly easily jammed. In a number of areas (particularly with cheaper devices), it's very difficult to get reliable GPS signals, so blocking reception wouldn't be all that suspicious.
Positive Change (Score:3, Insightful)
And this encourages conservation how??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Like it or not, a direct result of higher fuel prices is a drop is demand. Regardless of your views on oil production/drilling/exploration, it seems like it would be in everyone's best interest to use less fuel.
There was once--many years ago--talk of taxing motor fuel to reduce consumption. While I never personally agreed with the proposal, the idea of removing taxes from gasoline (which would make it appear cheaper to consumers) seems like a step in the wrong direction.
I wonder who is advising the "federal commission" on the options available to them? Why on earth would they decide a massive new taxation infrastructure was the "best path forward" unless they were being advised by someone who would benefit in some way from the massive purchase of new GPS tracking equipment?
Call me a curmudgeon, but I'd really like to know...
Re:old/weird cars? (Score:3, Insightful)
So I guess they will have exemptions for older cars, cars that have value in original condition and adding/changing something will reduce value, etc.
They're politicians, they don't care a whit about you or your car. They care about getting reelected and getting more of your money to spend.
Finally (Score:5, Insightful)
Something that might get more Americans to ride bicycles.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Right now we don't need anything to discourage moving toward electric / hybrid / high mileage vehicles. The environmental benefits and economic benefits of removing the need for foreign oil would far outweigh whatever revenue the government would receive.
Eventually they could probably come up with an electric metering system for plug-ins which would be far less intrusive than having a GPS watching you all the time.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:4, Insightful)
It does if the states decide to piggyback off the service as well, and you can rest assured that they'll want to. Since federal fuel taxes are dropping it means state fuel taxes are also declining for the exact same reasons. They'll likely want to use this system to tax drivers on their state roads, and to do that you need the accuracy & tracking that GPS provides.
It will be both taxes (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no way in hell that the government will remove any gas taxes, they will just add the per mile tax.
Re:That's not a good replacement (Score:3, Insightful)
So who gets the money from that?
The Feds at least since the federal commission was first talking about a federal tax. In the case of state taxes
Currently if I am driving in a state the state usually gets some percentage of the gas tax. If you are just checking the odometer, my home state gets all the money even if I travel out of state often?
Yeah but so what? They can set their state tax to whatever they want, and set up whatever revenue sharing deals with other states that they want. Since the major concern for a state wrt travelers from another state is wear and tear on the highways and especially interstates, then the federal highway fund which you're paying into regardless of what state you live/drive in can take care of that.
I don't like the GPS idea one bit, I'm just saying checking the odometer does not solve the problem.
As much as there is a 'problem' to begin with, there are basic ways to solve it without a GPS device recording your every movement. It's not like states have never had to deal with an issue like tax income being sent to another state that should theoretically have been theirs. This is not a problem which requires a technological solution.
"Ooh what about interstate travel?" isn't a problem that justifies tracking everywhere you go. It's a justification for upgrading the scheme from a simple and straightforward one that only serves the intended purpose (measuring road usage and taxing accordingly), to one that has many, many other uses
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's another really nice tool that has the advantage that EVERY car already has one: Odometer
That would be all well and good if a mileage tax was really what they were after. It should be obvious to anyone who is familiar with the events over the past decade or so, however, that this is hardly the case. Now that they have identified where everybody is going on airplanes, cars are an unknown variable. This system, pawned off as a "tax" is like using the "drinking age" to get everybody to carry ID. It identifies cars -- and by extension their drivers -- with locations constantly. It is just one step further toward Big Brother and a Federal government knows where you are and what you are doing at all times.
Re:Positive Change (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes we can!
2 year commission. Just concluded.. Hmm...
Think about it.
Then stfu.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I think I would get a sense of a couple things from this project; how much data is used to completely document a single humans daily life, and how much of that data is completely irrelevant to everyone but the subject. I think it could answer some philosophical questions regarding Big Brother watching you.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hidden doubling (or more) of taxes (Score:3, Insightful)
Yet another symptom of how the government has forgotten it exists to SERVE We The People; contrary to the direction of current policies, We The People don't exist solely to be the government's revenue stream!!
Re:Great Idea (Score:3, Insightful)
hy not just continue to raise the fuel taxes to generate revenue? That would serve to continue to reduce fuel consumption which would be a good thing.
Well the funny thing is that this isn't about being green and reducing fossil fuel consumption. For that, a gas tax does work much better. No, this is about ensuring revenue for the federal highway fund and for the states' road funds continues to come in even as fuel economies go up and alternative fuel vehicles become more popular.
The article mentions the Chevy Volt, which for a typical commuter would consume just about zero gas and thus generate about zero revenue for road repair with a gas tax. Nevertheless, the Volt, Tesla Roadster, and so on aren't magic, they still damage roads. Currently the gas tax is essentially acting as a proxy for a road use tax. They're worried about when that won't work anymore.
Using GPS to do it is still either a stupid or evil idea -- and it can be both in the hands of different parts of the government.
Re:Great (Score:3, Insightful)
Much simpler to just put a bit of tinfoil over the antenna. Remove it on Sundays to rack up a little mileage, and at inspection time.
Re:Finally (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hidden doubling (or more) of taxes (Score:3, Insightful)
Except They Won't Issue Speeding Tickets (Score:3, Insightful)
What it could be used for though, would be in investigations and criminal cases where the state might be interested. For example, we could have figured out Sanford was having an affair much sooner if we'd had GPS tracking on him all the time. And you know it's only a matter of time before law enforcement starts watching the GPS data for patterns and flagging any deviation from daily patterns as suspicious and worthy of investigation.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
And you don't think the Feds wouldn't think of this sort of thing? They'll likely design the thing to compare what the GPS records with your odometer (and tampering with that is already a federal offense), require both to be inspected on a regular basis, and also back the whole thing up with federal legislation making any sort of tampering illegal and subject to a nice long stay at Club Fed.
Re:wtf (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah you're right. The gubmint should just stop building and maintaining roads. Let them all fall apart and we can just switch to commuting on mountain bikes.
Re:Reasonable! (Score:3, Insightful)
Lets see:
-Doubtless the system will be abused, all systems are. The question is will it be abused more than the benefit it provides. My feeling is that it would not provide the benefit expected.
-Tax Money never goes where I hope it will, the US government spends trillions of dollars maintaining a military killing people in far flung lands. I didn't sign up for that.
-If you can't afford quadrupling $0.005/Per Mile tax, you can't afford to drive.
-I don't give a fuck if you "feel the need to drive 'excessively'". I also don't give a fuck if you can't afford drive as much as you would like. Go get a job... or bike.
Re:wtf (Score:3, Insightful)
I dunno. For someone like me, who doesn't use highways very often, it would be nice to be relieved of a tax burden and have it put back on the people who actually benefit from the highway system.
Right... because no one uses the highway to deliver your packages or goods to the stores from which you purchase things... so none of those prices will go up, either.
Re:Great (Score:5, Insightful)
You're assuming they'll drop the gasoline tax. I'm betting it's more like a leap from $106.73 to $406.73.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
How much of your mileage isn't on public roads? For most people, I'd guess almost none (up and down the driveway doesn't account for much for my trip into work each day). So, tough shit. No system is going to be perfect.
And if 99% was good enough, you'd be missing a paycheck every two years.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
"the Prius drivers have more of an impact on the roads because they can drive much further (and cause much more wear on the roads) than the Hummer drivers."
The Prius weighs in at just over 3000 lbs, the Hummer H3 at just over 6000. How is the Prius with it's smaller wheels and less weight going to do MORE damage to roads no matter how far they drive? Seems like the way to measure the damage is per mile right, not vehicle range?
C.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:1, Insightful)
What if I were to intentionally kill the GPS signal? Does my car not work? Hmm. What if something happens to the GPS system (space monsters ate three satellites) or a natural disaster covers the sky in ash and smoke and the cars can't get a signal, do all cars in the area just die? If the GPS system isn't critical to operating the vehicle then everybody will circumvent it. If it is critical to operation, then its too dangerous.
Now a gas tax, that is damn near impossible to circumvent and has none of these complications. Stop suggesting solutions to a problem that doesn't exist. If you aren't getting enough revenue from the gas tax then raise it. We don't need a system that is more prone to error, and invasive. This is just inexcusable that any elected official would entertain the idea.
Re:That's not a good replacement (Score:5, Insightful)
Raising the gas tax is far cheaper, impossible to turn into Big Brother, and localizes the the state and community pretty well, on average.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
what if my odometer is defective?
my old car's odo specifically has a fairly predictable amount of slippage. It shouldn't be too hard to slip the same amount. or you have a disconnect between the wheels and odo that kicks in at the same time you enable the brass mesh...
seriously, this will be hacked.
it would be prohibitively expensive to retro to older cars.
it won't work in certain areas...
etc.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Umm, the data is coming off a GPS unit, all they have to do (and trust me they have this in mind already) is say, Oh, we need to know where you go so we know where to send the tax money and suddenly they have a "legitimate" and "reasonable" reason to track each persons vehicular movements.
To think that that data would not be subject to the same "mission creep" that every other government collection of anything is subject to is ludicrous.
Even if the initial legislation explicitly forbids any other uses they will simply write new laws later allowing it, probably to foil terrorists or the help the children.
I'm not a tinfoil hatter but DAMN! This one stinks!
For most people, yes (Score:2, Insightful)
..for others, a lot of off the public road driving occurs. I've driven my truck six times in the past three days, all of it is on private property, and this farm at 800 acres is tiny compared to some ranches out west or for guys who go deep into the forests for logging, etc. They'll rack up tank after tank of fuel and hardly go on a publicly maintained road.
Anyway, IMO, this is more about people tracking then revenue. The gas tax is supposed to be wear and tear related for road maintenance, and for that it works. We have less revenue from better mileage cars, and also folks just driving less, and one of the reasons there is that they are lighter, and thus, less maintenance is required, less wear and tear. Want an alternative for this? Ban commodities flipping, it's just as harmful and stupid as real erstate bubble building flipping, make the end user who buys this oil on contract actually take delivery of petroleum and *do something* with it, like finish refining it and so on. A stat I read recently (sorry, no link handy) said a barrel of oil changes hands on average 27 times on paper before delivery! If we banned that speculation flipping and middleman skimming and price gouging, we could have a larger fuel tax by the gallon at the pump, they'd get all the road maintenance revenue they would need, and it would still be cheaper at the pump for the end user.
This GPS tracking you nonsense is more big brother action, and obviously so if you stop and look at the larger picture, same as all the other tagging, rfid, tracking, cameras, database crap they are instituting. This is the new technofuedalist elite aristocrats maintaining their herds of subjects/serfs. Really, just extrapolate it out. It is SO far beyond what was considered harmful/heinous back when I was a kid it ain't funny now. From my POV as a neogeezer we are well past the halfway point to the brave new world, well past it. They are already doing stuff I was taught was only done in dire dictatorial regimes, no knock raids and door kicking, random checkpoints, secret enemies of the state lists, etc.
Now look forward just twenty more years if this keeps up at this rate. They'll have an entire generation well into adulthood with kids of their own who have never ever been in a situation where they weren't monitored, had to go through random checkpoints, been scanned, tagged, DNA registered, fingerprinted, stamped, spindled folded and mutilated by the state, all of the above and more, everything about them cataloged in databases, and they will consider that "normal". Poof, a full master/slave society when the slaves don't even see they are slaves, and if pointed out to them will deny it because of the mass conditioning since birth. The chains will be invisible to them, they will love big brother. It's damn close now, the poor kids in the public schools today are undergoing mass indoctrination and cultural brainwashing to an extreme.
If they tried to pull this stuff all at once, they might see an actual righteous revolt, a little bit at a time, spread out over the years..nothing, they win. And the whole time it is happening, apologists will keep saying it isn't that bad, every single step forward to that sort of society "well, it isn't that bad, look at north korea!!'.
That's how they get away with it. Look at the acceptance of the "no fly" enemies of the state list now. Like supposedly a million people and counting. No public accusation in the normal courts system, just you find out you are on some list if you go to board a plane..because some faceless drone decided you should be on it, or a computer program did it..or something. And they get cut out of the line, and everyone around them looks away and is thankful it isn't them...Scared into docile obedience, state sponsored terrorized into acceptance. They won't even say how it works. I mean, how bad does it have to get before people really notice this stuff? Does anyone REALLY think there are a million "terrorists" inside the US? Where are the attacks? If there really are, where are the arrests and charges and trials? Nope, that's the misdirection, this is just a list for eventual herd culling. Tracking you in your ride is all that is about, the revenue stuff is BS.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree that it doesn't matter where people drove, but you're over-thinking the allocation.
Just divide up the money by population and give occasional bonuses to tourist destinations. If you do that, you'll be pretty close to the same allocation without the fundamental invasion of every individual's privacy. Want more accurate allocation data? That's what traffic counters are for. There's no reason to believe that this will result in any improvement over the current system beyond what could be gained by requiring a simple mileage declaration.
Re:That's not a good replacement (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, you missed the point entirely.
The reason for the tax is because I can now buy production electric cars which don't use any gas. So you could put whatever amount of tax on gas you wanted and the government wouldn't get a cent.
This then leads to:
SUV owner pays a lot of tax.
Trucking Industry collapses.
Daily commuter pays near the same tax due to fuel economy.
Hybrid owner pays low tax.
EV owner pays no tax.
All use the same roads, but are now taxed at different rates.
My solution: Tax tires. It has a direct correlation to road usage and all vehicles use tires. If you drive hard you do more damage to the road and your tires, meaning you'll need to replace both sooner. If you drive like a granny your tires will last longer and so will the roads.
I'll remove any GPS unit they try and put in my car. I may soon be spending a great deal of time in jail.
Re:What's wrong with the gas tax? (Score:3, Insightful)
My guess is it's the rich idiots driving 10 mpg SUVs that think global warming is a myth pushing for this. Odd, the SUV owners all whine "but I need a big car to haul a bunch of people" but I rarely see one of these monstrosities with more than one person in it.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
It matters, because that gasoline tax is part Federal, part local. If you just base it on mileage, some states would complain they're not getting their fair share of the actual revenue. So, I live in Jersey and work in Philly.. that's about 60% Jersey, 40% Pennsylvania on a typical commute. Driving a Prius (500+ mile range), I never buy the more expensive petrol in PA, but I could, and I'm sure many do... there's a heavy South Jersey to PA commute. If it was simply based on mileage, Jersey would get to apply their rate to all of my travel, PA gets nothing.
Of course, given that senario, I rekon most anyone going NJ to PA, PA to NJ, NJ to NY, NY to NJ, etc. is going to buy fuel in Jersey. So they'd be hurt by this in the long run, at least for the locals. But then there's the traffic along the Turnpike, NY to Delaware... they get their toll, but I'm sure they'd love a piece of that road tax, too.
So this would definitely be a big arguing point between the states. Hopefully for that reason alone, it would fail. It's wrong on many other levels. We should want to promote efficiency, promote alternative fuels, etc.
Plus the whole personal privacy thing... once a GPS with a government controlled radio transponder is in my car, it will be technically possible to use this to get me for speeding violations, dial up someone's car and find it ASAP (and, well, we've seen how well the "necessary court order" thing worked in the face of a power-grabbing political machine with phones and ISPs), all the while increasing your insurance based on your speeds, when and where you drive, etc.
But hey, I'll get rich selling little jammer dongles for your USB port (by 2020, all cars will have USB ports to power the stuff that used to pushed into the lighter jack).
Re:That's not a good replacement (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Agreed. It would be so much cheaper to just raise the fuel tax. The mechanism is already in place (gas stations collect it, just change the amount if you need more money) and by taxing fuel not miles, it encourages fuel economy. I just don't get it. Unless of course the real reason is to track everyone.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, its called TOLL ROADS. They exist. Once again a solution looking for a problem. Why is it so hard to simply raise the fuel tax? Or better yet, why is it so hard for the government (federal / state / local) to live within their means?
That you would even consider... (Score:3, Insightful)
..GPS tracking by the government shows how far apart we are just in general principles as per my above first reply about how far we are into a full police state and how people have been slowly conditioned to accept it and not even see it. I remember saying the same thing about electronic computerized voting way back here before it even started, when it was a lot more popular in concept because it was "computerized', high tech, so it just must be mo' bettah. I called shenanigans then as well, because I could see the obvious high level abuse potential and how they could hack elections easier. And most likely, they have, given all the evidence that has come out since the 2000 elections to today.
Same deal here, just part of their NWO stew of crap they keep throwing at the people and making "law". From my POV, just at a very basic and important level, the GPS tracking itself is an outright outrageous *abuse*, let alone *charging* you cash money for this dubious privilege.
And like I said, it has nothing to do with revenue, that's the misdirection part, the con they are using to push this. I already outlined a completely viable alternative for both increasing road maintenance revenue, plus reducing the cost of fuel to the driver, without any obnoxious big brother tracking required.
We'll have to more or less agree to disagree on at least a few points here. I'm just lucky enough to remember living when such things would have been almost automatically vilified and would have stood no chance in hell of being made "law"..now..looks like the goons are winning "hearts and minds". Sadly.
And I will keep pointing out when that is happening, or when it looks to happen, like with this issue. Because I actually care about old fashioned personal freedoms and a strictly regulated and controlled government. An all powerful government with a strictly controlled population is not the original design here.
Heh, I am in farming, I can recognize easily when a farmer is controlling his herd, I do it daily, what needs to happen. You have to do surveillance, control, and watch your fences. Look around at government now, what do you see? What I see has way too many parallels for complacency or for me to accept it is anything other than what it looks like, using occam's razor.
Re:Do we really need GPS to track mileage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
You misunderstood the point of having a tax system: The people collect money, which is then invested in the public interest. As a result of this, some win, some lose. Tough luck if you're on the losing end when it comes to road tax; you'll probably benefit in other areas.
Also, just because you do not travel on certain busy broken roads, it doesn't mean that you're not USING those roads; Every time you go to the supermarket, you're using the public road infrastructure. Whichever roads you travel on, the money collected by the public is invested in maintenance of this infrastructure- in everyone's interest. You DON'T just pay tax to use the bit of road that you use for your daily commute.