thefickler writes "Clearly, the rise of free antivirus is starting to worry Symantec, with one of their top executives warning consumers not to rely on free antivirus software (including Microsoft's Security Essentials). 'If you are only relying on free antivirus to offer you protection in this modern age, you are not getting the protection you need to be able to stay clean and have a reasonable chance of avoiding identity theft,' said David Hall, a Product Manager for Symantec. According to Hall, there is a widening gap between people's understanding of what protection they need and the threats they're actually facing."
"IT admins across the globe are letting out a collective groan after servers and PCs running McAfee VirusScan were brought down when the anti-virus program [theregister.co.uk] attack their core system files. In some cases, this caused the machines to display the dreaded blue screen of death"
No, Symantec provides a removal tool so that they can make it such a pain in the ass for any home or small business user trying to uninstall it that they just stick with the Symantec product, but that the people who are *really sure about being sure about being sure they wanna uninstall Symantec* can go find the "easily listed" removal tool on the website - because they have to provide at least that to get through the legal loopholes about the customer being the one to choose if they drop the product and go somewhere else...
Unless, of course, you make the antivirus itself pop up a simple "Yes/No" dialog when its attempted to be uninstalled, warning that malware could be the one behind it. That's what Avast! did last time I uninstalled it, its simple, efficient, and the antivirus app doesn't get classified by *me* as malware unlike dear old Norton.
Right. because there is no way malware could click 'yes'. Hate to break it to you, but there is all kinds of software out there to do this.
Its one of the reasons Vista's UAC prompts are so 'intrusive', because it tries to shunt the dialog box into a 'secure safe mode'... specifically so that other programs, services, etc can't send windows messages, keystrokes, etc to the dialog box and press "allow" for you.
I don't need anti-virus because I use Linux (Ubuntu, Puppy, PCLinuxOS)!
"Malware", Virus, Worms, Trojans, etc., do not effect my PCs.
I run Linux as well, however what you just said applies to a Linux user not running as root. Unfortunately many people I know who should know better are quite happy logging in as root and this can lead to issues not unlike those affecting a Microsoft OS. All machines I set-up or even manage are set-up such that you cannot login as root either via telnet (now depreciated) or ssh. Of course that won't stop people logging in as root on the console in the case of a personal computer or workstation.
From personal experience Linux in the enterprise requires Anti Virus protection at least for those machines that are internet facing not because Linux is actually affected by mall-ware associated with Microsoft OS's and applications but because you need to protect any Microsoft products that may connect to the Linux machines. It has never ceased to amaze me that many businesses see this as normal and it is utterly pointless to try an explain to them what is wrong with this picture.
Symantec provided a removal tool because their idiot programmers couldn't be assed to write a proper uninstaller for their shite product.
So basically what you're saying is that the idiot programmers used their ass to write a shoddy piece of code that you need a third party uninstaller to remove?
Yeah that sounds about right actually. And I'm finding the whole of the article, including Hall's bullshit spew to be absolutely hysterical, given that their product runs like a 5,000 pound pig in a 300 pound pig pen. Perhaps if they weren't so bloody quick to obsolete their products on a year to year basis, and trying to push out a new version every year that has even more bloat in it than the last year -- perhaps people wouldn't be so quick to rely on "free" anti-virus solutions as an alternative
"Symantec provided a removal tool because their idiot programmers couldn't be assed to write a proper uninstaller for their shite product."
Symantec products used to be good in the DOS early windows 95 days, now they are just garbage and add no real value, I could never defrag my hard drive in XP using later versions of norton defrag, etc, because of hard disk locking issues because the way their clueless programmers could not figure out NTFS.
I also hate what they did to partition magic when they bought out powerquest. It seems to me anything that gets aquired by symantec turns to shit.
They used to be a good company, now one only uses their products "at arms length" I hate installing their anti virus software and usually only run it from CD/DVD.
They had a few good programs: Their old dos norton utilities and the DOS versions of Ghost - quick, clean simple utilities, what I wouldn't give for someone to make good utilities again.
but that's what he goes on to explain later. He says: "What you need is a pre-emptive strike. Fight fire with fire! Install one of our products and we'll break your computer until it's in an unusuable state. I'd like to see you catch a virus when your internet doesn't work and your computer takes 10 minutes to boot."
Most of those posts aren't current, but let me assure you that Symantec Endpoint Protection still does this shit.
We use it at work, and I've discovered the suite does something really retarded: There's a part of it they call "network threat protection"; because of the overblown name, it took me a bit of googling to figure out that the thing is literally nothing more than a cheap little firewall. However, unlike real firewalls, if you do something it doesn't like - run the FTP client that comes with Windows, run the Windows wget binary, try to install a program over the network, try to use certain software - it will crash. And when it crashes, it will take down the entire Windows network stack. And when the Windows network stack goes down, the computer becomes unusable and you have to cut the power.
Note that this isn't some sort of retarded blocking behavior; although NTP is installed, the traffic rules are set to basically "block two or three inconsequential things, allow otherwise". We ended up having to uninstall it on the computers of the people who were most affected.
If you make a product and then make a new version how can the new version freakout and break because you once had the older version made by the same company?
That's a pretty easy question. You skip the regression testing phase. Or maybe they trusted the OS too much, moved a function from one dll to another, changed how the function worked, and forgot to have the update script remove the dll from the OS. If the program gets the invalid response from the older function, it might cause problems. Anyway you work this, it all comes down to them not testing enough.
If there were any high-quality for-pay alternatives, I'd say he might have a point.
Unfortunately, most antivirus software sucks, with Symantec more or less epitomizing how good ideas on paper can turn into terrible/buggy/bloated security software that actually increases your exposure [msn.com] since it adds another node malicious code can attack. Symantec's argument-from-assertion notwithstanding, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between antivirus software being for-pay and higher quality.
From my experience, there's really bad antivirus software (such as Norton, which I have zero confidence in and would never let touch my machine), and slightly less bad antivirus software. What went wrong? Why does this industry suck so badly? Anyone have any insight?
Personally I have a lot of respect for ESET's AV (specifically NOD32) because it's fast and does the job.
But since they don't target consumers so aggressively (unlike Symantec with Norton, who manage to get difficult-to-remove trial version on tons of laptops at the point of sale) they don't exactly have a very big following. In fact, outside of business and tech circles, I assume they're completely unknown. So I suppose what went wrong, is that AV companies had to dump ethics to get well known. The decent ones who respect the end user and state of the machine (as opposed to "sticky" trial software and the like) end up at the bottom of the barrel. The industry is "upside down"
Different on different markets I guess. Here in Sweden I see TV-commercials for NOD32 all the time. Assuming you're from the US, I guess they might be focusing on the EU market?
+1 for NOD32. Best combo of fast and accurate out there. I will say that turning off "scan on write" on older computers in any virus engine often gives a great speed boost, NOD32 included. I have found that speed/security tradeoff to be worth it, as files are still scanned on read, and on scheduled full scans.
The fundamental problem is that Microsoft makes more money if there are security problems in Windows.
OpenBSD [openbsd.org] doesn't require anti-virus and anti-spyware programs partly because it was written to be secure. Apple's Mac OS X [apple.com] is based on BSD, and users rarely have problems with that operating system being insecure.
Amazingly, Microsoft is not only supplying insecure software, it is charging for programs to fix the insecurities!!! See Windows Live OneCare [live.com].
Microsoft charges Microsoft Windows users $50 for software to fix problems in Windows! Windows Live OneCare has "Antivirus and antispyware all in one" [live.com]. More: "Two-way firewall helps stop hackers in their tracks". Hmmm, Microsoft, if Windows needs a "Two-way firewall", and it certainly does, why do you supply a one-way firewall with Windows???
See Windows Live OneCare Gripes [computergripes.com]. Quote: "Create the problem, then charge people money to solve it." Another quote: "Why should Microsoft profit from the plague of viruses and Spyware? Shouldn't it have designed Windows better to begin with? And if it has indeed found a way to protect Windows, isn't it a tad exploitative to charge for it? Microsoft has no convincing answer for these questions . .."
Another quote: "McAfee, Symantec and Microsoft (with Windows Live OneCare) all set your credit card up for automatic renewals when you purchase their security software on-line.... the gripe is that you can't opt out of this during the purchase. OneCare is the most difficult of the three to opt out of. In fact, you can't. Instead you must must cancel your subscription altogether by calling 866-663-2273."
To me, it seems like this: Testing... Testing... How much abuse will computer users accept?
Antivirus software would be required on WHATEVER was the popular platform, because not being able to run code makes a computer worthless and sheeple can easily be tricked into running bad code.
I agree that most for-pay software sucks in this regard, just look at any corporate network. Most computers have terrible performance and still wind up spreading worms and viruses.
I think the key here is that the company is telling us we need his product. In other news, a consultant came to the conclusion that we need more consulting, GM told me I need a new car, and McDonald's told me I need a McBurger. No shit, a company telling me I need their products? Nothing to see here, move along, look for an unbiased neutral party.
Unfortunately, these have become hard to find in our pay to play economy. And being able to tell who is a good unbiased source of information is a monumental challenge. So far, the only thing that seems to be for sure is that the louder and more often someone says that they are unbiased and neutral the less they are. I would throw out some names and advertising slogans but, I'm not wearing my flame-proof underwear (AC).
It's not just AV software. The entire software industry operates this way.
1. Shovel feature-rich bug-ware onto unsuspecting schlubs to build "brand" (especially in the enterprise/IT market where the person purchasing the software is often not the person who has to use it, so they make decisions based on feature list and brand name rather than quality) 2. Wait for hobbyists, researchers, or smaller companies to figure out how to do it right 3. Buy their companies 4. Repeat
Remember when Norton was actually decent? It was before Symantec bought them. After the acquisition, Symantec went back to Step 1 and gradually bloated and encrapified the antivirus. Now they are on Step 2. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought up someone like TrendMicro soon, spouting promises of a glorious and euphoria-inducing Norton/PC-cillin integration.
What went wrong? Why does this industry suck so badly? Anyone have any insight?
Disclaimer: I'm not any particular expert.
My guess is that at least part of the problem is that the only thing that AV software seems to do well is basically signature-based detection, which they had down pat a couple decades ago. So for the past few decades, mostly AV software only needed updates to work with new operating systems, bug fixes, and new signatures.
Now the only real problem with that is that these companies all want to release a new version of their software every year and have everyone re-buy it, because (for psychological reasons) people will pay more for that (or a subscription to receive "free" updates) than they'll pay for signature updates. This puts the companies in a position where it makes sense to throw some new bells and whistles into their product every year, whether or not they're sensible or effective. That leads to bloat.
Of course they say that. They are in the business of scaring people into buying their crap so they think they are safe -- when in actuality their vict^Wcostumers get pwned by exploitable holes in IE anydangway.
And you just hit right on the head the biggest security measure you can do-get them off IE! I have found by getting them off IE, either with FF, Seamonkey(the older folks seem to prefer its Netscape style layout to FF), Kmeleon(for older machines) or Flock(for those into social networking) the rate of infection goes WAY down with my users.
The second biggest security advice I can give is don't make your users think. I have Comodo [comodo.com] set to auto scan nightly based on their usage patterns, Spybot set to do the same, Foxit [foxitsoftware.com] does its own updates, Windows set to autoupdate, etc. I have found that by relying on the user as little as possible it helps to keep the system up to date and less of a target. Relying on the user is how so many end up with a four year old out of date Symantec "product" as the only AV on a users machine.
But I personally think it is funny that the head of Symantec is warning about free AVs, when oftentimes his "product" will drag a machine to its knees worse than any malware infection! When I hand the customer a box that previously had Symantec their machine with something like Comodo installed the first thing they comment on is how much faster their machine is, which is kinda sad, as once upon a time (during the days of DOS and Win9X) Norton was a sign of quality. But like most things Symantec touches Norton turned to crap. BTW, is there any product the Symantec bought that hasn't turned to crap?
And *that* is a crap statistic; it does nothing to describe the severities of the vulnerabilities, the vendor response, or the amount of time each was left unpatched. Who cares if FF had 184 vulnerabilities and IE 1, if the FF ones were hard to exploit and patched within a few days and the IE one was left open all year and readily attackable by script kiddies?
In the end it boils down to what actual malware is out there in the wild.
"exploit statistics" are just numbers that are abused by people that need to make up excuses for not being willing to dump crap and just use a better product.
It's not the number of buffer overflow bugs in Firefox, it's the number of actual trojans in the wild for Explorer.
Microsoft for a long time has suffered from this strange idea that they can enhance the end user experience by allowing and piece of crap code from any untrusted source to execute by default and run amok in the system.
I disagree. How many computer users are able to make an accurate judgement between two pieces of antivirus software? When you decide to choose one AV program over another, what metrics do you use?
If there choice were only: install Symantec or get a virus, then that's a really difficult choice. I'd be inclined to risk the virus, since Symantec invades and slows your system in a worse way than many infections.
Fortunately, there are many free anti-virus products that work better than Symantec. It's a no-brainer choice. Free is cheaper and better.
I have no understanding of how Symantec remains in business. There's something deeply wrong with that.
I can explain that to you. It's called a delusional dominant reality.
If you act as if you were the godking of antivirus, you will start to ignore your flaws. If you then are so strong in that belief, that you pull others into it, they will start to ignore them too. As you might imagine, this is quite easy with the uninformed masses, who never have seen anything else. I mean that "Dr. Norton" with his white doctor coat, his cool name, and all this... He looks so sure of himself. And others have it too. So it must be good. Ever if it is bad there, and there, and there, and there, etc.
It's the same thing that makes you believe a medical doctor actually had any more competence than a better pharmacist. And him stating "there is no cure" except of "I did not go to a further training for the last three decades, and just don't know a cure, but there might be one, and we still have to find it", does not help it. (This is his delusional dominant reality in action.)
It is also the thing that can make you good at dating, pickup, etc. (Don't hear to the Mistery method losers and their a million and one imitators. That stuff is outdated for at least a decade now.)
If I grew bananas, I would warn everyone that free bananas could be detrimental to their health. After all, consumers have no idea how hard it is to grow good bananas. Free bananas could leave them lacking in any number of impossible to define vitamins and minerals.
As a software author, I've found that free anti-virus, like Avira and Avast, pretty good, given my
understanding of computers, email, spam, and security threats. Symantec are just creating
FUD. I used to use Norton Security software, but found that it just slows down a Windows XP
machine far too much, guesstimate 15 to 20%. The UI would take ages to load. Symantec
might be good for the peons, but for experts the performance hit is too much. Expert users
can find better, cheaper, and faster working solutions.
I won't run Symantec on my network. When I first took over, everything was Symantec 11, and it was just horrifyingly bad. Pretty much every time I logged into my workstation, I had to kill the rtvscan process, and users were always complaining. When the license renewal came in, I just crumpled it up and through it in the garbage. I had had some experience with F-Prot from when I was working at a small ISP, and decided "what the hell". The licenses were cheap (I did forty computers for $200 a year), it's very lightweight and while I can't do remote scans and the like, the LAN version is dead-dog simple, it just copies the definitions from the server. Even then, it still screws up on occasion, but a helluva lot less than Symantec ever did.
I've found that free anti-virus, like Avira and Avast, pretty good
I can second this whole-heartedly. I work in a computer shop, and I can personally testify that these two products catch more infections than anything
Symantec, McAffee, or Trend Micro EVER came out with. I still recommend Malwarebytes Antimalware [malwarebytes.org] as a
supplementary spyware scanner, but Avast and Avira are definitely my favorite for main protection.
The reason you are steadily losing market share has less to do with the availability of reasonably good antivirus software for free, and more to do with the staggeringly awful quality of your own products. Norton Internet Security was so completely terrible, that not only did it fail to stop critical attacks, but it slowed down systems more than the worst available spyware infections. Removing those spyware infections was also easier than removing your software, because the uninstaller would fail more often than it would function. I began to keep the latest version of the Symantec removal tool in my kit because it was better to assume the uninstall would fail, and not bother to use it. Until I managed to get a significant portion of my clients away from your products, they paid me to fix problems with your software more often than any other single product by a factor of 10. At this point, even if your company came out with the perfect security product, I would advise my clients not to buy it purely based on past experience, because you do not deserve their money.
You know what is really a non-protection in AV? Products from large companies. No, really.
Malware is today routinely tested against the big players before it's leaving the door. More and more often, you also see protection against specific AV suits (Norton, McAfee, Kaspersky are amongst the top on that list), where the malware specifically tries to disable those AV suits or at least blocks updates.
Malware protecting against smaller players in the AV field is rare. Market dictates that. It does not pay to protect your malware against an AV suit the market share or which is less than 5 percent.
So, I essentially agree with him: MS Antivirus will offer... well, let me say not the best protection, because EVERY piece of malware will be tested and hardened against it. But, and I guess Mr. Hall will not enjoy that, Symantec doesn't offer protection any better, because, since they're big enough with a big enough market share, they, too, are on the malware writer's radar.
I agree, all free antivirus sucks, so does all paid for software.
However there is a magical amulet which will protect you from all computer attacks, I happen to be selling these items for a very reasonable price.
On the other hand, I know plenty of people running active commercial anti-virus software that's been plagued with virii.
The reason?
1. No Awareness.
2. No Patching.
3. No Prudence. 4. Running Windows
There. Fixed that for you.
Worm/Virus are spread so fast these days, the AV software just can't catch up in time to prevent the infection and in quite a few cases, the Worm/Virus disables the AV software, making it more difficult (in some cases impossible) to remove the infection without booting to another OS (Live OS from a CD/USB Drive).
Except that spreading fast is nothing new. Most worms hit peak a few hours sooner than the average time it takes for the AV makers to create and push out a new profile.
That's why I use ClamWin for occasional scanning.
ClamWin, ClamAV are fine for remedial action. The best remedy, as in all things, is prevention and that can be accomplished by moving to systems that are resistant to malware. Here even the consumer unions fall flat on their faces and fail to mention the Linux distros. Most mainstream distros are years ahead of Windows as far as ease of use, maintenance and speed. The main weakness of real systems (non-M$) is that Web 2.0 script crap.
If someone wanted to make a really hardened desktop or netbook appliance, the following steps can be taken:
Split up the file system hierarchy and partitions W^X
Don't run the regular user with any admin privileges or the ability to escalate to admin.
I wrote the word appliance above, because with extreme settings like that, you are not going to want to try to add, remove or radically reconfigure any packages.
I know that myth stays in circulation, but trust me: AV companies do not write malware. For two reasons:
First, AV companies do talk a lot. Not only at conferences. There's a well built and solid network of sample exchange between them. Of course, you delay it a few hours or a day before you forward your new samples to the others so you can have a 'first', but a global malware detection array is in nobody's budget possible. So they split the world and detect together. Should it become known that you spew malware yourself, you're OUT. And that means you're dead.
And second, why bother the cost? You get the malware for free anyway. There are people who make it their (illegal, but who cares?) business to write and spread it. Why should I invest money into something I get free of charge?
McAfee false-positive glitch fells PCs worldwide (Score:5, Informative)
Re:McAfee false-positive glitch fells PCs worldwid (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Informative)
Or, Multiple serious problems with symantec endpoint 11 - Please help [symantec.com].
Or, Norton Internet Security 2009 has caused me problems [norton.com]. (Norton.com is owned by Symantec [symantecstore.com], of course.)
You know there are problems when Symantec provides a Removal Tool [norton.com].
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Informative)
Symantec provided a removal tool because their idiot programmers couldn't be assed to write a proper uninstaller for their shite product.
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't want the uninstaller resident, that's a point of weakness for attack.
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Informative)
Unless, of course, you make the antivirus itself pop up a simple "Yes/No" dialog when its attempted to be uninstalled, warning that malware could be the one behind it. That's what Avast! did last time I uninstalled it, its simple, efficient, and the antivirus app doesn't get classified by *me* as malware unlike dear old Norton.
Right. because there is no way malware could click 'yes'. Hate to break it to you, but there is all kinds of software out there to do this.
Its one of the reasons Vista's UAC prompts are so 'intrusive', because it tries to shunt the dialog box into a 'secure safe mode'... specifically so that other programs, services, etc can't send windows messages, keystrokes, etc to the dialog box and press "allow" for you.
Parent
Re:How do you know you need anti-virus? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't need anti-virus because I use Linux (Ubuntu, Puppy, PCLinuxOS)! "Malware", Virus, Worms, Trojans, etc., do not effect my PCs.
I run Linux as well, however what you just said applies to a Linux user not running as root. Unfortunately many people I know who should know better are quite happy logging in as root and this can lead to issues not unlike those affecting a Microsoft OS. All machines I set-up or even manage are set-up such that you cannot login as root either via telnet (now depreciated) or ssh. Of course that won't stop people logging in as root on the console in the case of a personal computer or workstation.
From personal experience Linux in the enterprise requires Anti Virus protection at least for those machines that are internet facing not because Linux is actually affected by mall-ware associated with Microsoft OS's and applications but because you need to protect any Microsoft products that may connect to the Linux machines. It has never ceased to amaze me that many businesses see this as normal and it is utterly pointless to try an explain to them what is wrong with this picture.
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Insightful)
Symantec provided a removal tool because their idiot programmers couldn't be assed to write a proper uninstaller for their shite product.
So basically what you're saying is that the idiot programmers used their ass to write a shoddy piece of code that you need a third party uninstaller to remove?
Yeah that sounds about right actually. And I'm finding the whole of the article, including Hall's bullshit spew to be absolutely hysterical, given that their product runs like a 5,000 pound pig in a 300 pound pig pen. Perhaps if they weren't so bloody quick to obsolete their products on a year to year basis, and trying to push out a new version every year that has even more bloat in it than the last year -- perhaps people wouldn't be so quick to rely on "free" anti-virus solutions as an alternative
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Symantec provided a removal tool because their idiot programmers couldn't be assed to write a proper uninstaller for their shite product."
Symantec products used to be good in the DOS early windows 95 days, now they are just garbage and add no real value, I could never defrag my hard drive in XP using later versions of norton defrag, etc, because of hard disk locking issues because the way their clueless programmers could not figure out NTFS.
I also hate what they did to partition magic when they bought out powerquest. It seems to me anything that gets aquired by symantec turns to shit.
They used to be a good company, now one only uses their products "at arms length" I hate installing their anti virus software and usually only run it from CD/DVD.
They had a few good programs: Their old dos norton utilities and the DOS versions of Ghost - quick, clean simple utilities, what I wouldn't give for someone to make good utilities again.
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Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of those posts aren't current, but let me assure you that Symantec Endpoint Protection still does this shit.
We use it at work, and I've discovered the suite does something really retarded:
There's a part of it they call "network threat protection"; because of the overblown name, it took me a bit of googling to figure out that the thing is literally nothing more than a cheap little firewall. However, unlike real firewalls, if you do something it doesn't like - run the FTP client that comes with Windows, run the Windows wget binary, try to install a program over the network, try to use certain software - it will crash. And when it crashes, it will take down the entire Windows network stack. And when the Windows network stack goes down, the computer becomes unusable and you have to cut the power.
Note that this isn't some sort of retarded blocking behavior; although NTP is installed, the traffic rules are set to basically "block two or three inconsequential things, allow otherwise". We ended up having to uninstall it on the computers of the people who were most affected.
Parent
Re:Symantec products are apparently the same. (Score:5, Funny)
You have to admit that taking down the Windows network stack does mean your endpoints are indeed protected. At least the ones on your PC.
Parent
Re:McAfee false-positive glitch fells PCs worldwid (Score:5, Interesting)
If you make a product and then make a new version how can the new version freakout and break because you once had the older version made by the same company?
That's a pretty easy question. You skip the regression testing phase. Or maybe they trusted the OS too much, moved a function from one dll to another, changed how the function worked, and forgot to have the update script remove the dll from the OS. If the program gets the invalid response from the older function, it might cause problems. Anyway you work this, it all comes down to them not testing enough.
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Re:Don't Worry (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly. Isn't this just like a wolf warning that the chicken coop should have a free and open society with no fences?
Or to put it another way: Is there any answer that you're going to give that doesn't recommend I spend dump trucks full of cash at your company?
Parent
Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Insightful)
If there were any high-quality for-pay alternatives, I'd say he might have a point.
Unfortunately, most antivirus software sucks, with Symantec more or less epitomizing how good ideas on paper can turn into terrible/buggy/bloated security software that actually increases your exposure [msn.com] since it adds another node malicious code can attack. Symantec's argument-from-assertion notwithstanding, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between antivirus software being for-pay and higher quality.
From my experience, there's really bad antivirus software (such as Norton, which I have zero confidence in and would never let touch my machine), and slightly less bad antivirus software. What went wrong? Why does this industry suck so badly? Anyone have any insight?
Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I have a lot of respect for ESET's AV (specifically NOD32) because it's fast and does the job.
But since they don't target consumers so aggressively (unlike Symantec with Norton, who manage to get difficult-to-remove trial version on tons of laptops at the point of sale) they don't exactly have a very big following. In fact, outside of business and tech circles, I assume they're completely unknown. So I suppose what went wrong, is that AV companies had to dump ethics to get well known. The decent ones who respect the end user and state of the machine (as opposed to "sticky" trial software and the like) end up at the bottom of the barrel. The industry is "upside down"
Parent
Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:4, Interesting)
+1 for NOD32.
Best combo of fast and accurate out there.
I will say that turning off "scan on write" on older computers in any virus engine often gives a great speed boost, NOD32 included. I have found that speed/security tradeoff to be worth it, as files are still scanned on read, and on scheduled full scans.
Parent
The fundamental problem is sloppy code in Windows. (Score:5, Informative)
The fundamental problem is that Microsoft makes more money if there are security problems in Windows.
OpenBSD [openbsd.org] doesn't require anti-virus and anti-spyware programs partly because it was written to be secure. Apple's Mac OS X [apple.com] is based on BSD, and users rarely have problems with that operating system being insecure.
Amazingly, Microsoft is not only supplying insecure software, it is charging for programs to fix the insecurities!!! See Windows Live OneCare [live.com].
Microsoft charges Microsoft Windows users $50 for software to fix problems in Windows! Windows Live OneCare has "Antivirus and antispyware all in one" [live.com]. More: "Two-way firewall helps stop hackers in their tracks". Hmmm, Microsoft, if Windows needs a "Two-way firewall", and it certainly does, why do you supply a one-way firewall with Windows???
See Windows Live OneCare Gripes [computergripes.com]. Quote: "Create the problem, then charge people money to solve it." Another quote: "Why should Microsoft profit from the plague of viruses and Spyware? Shouldn't it have designed Windows better to begin with? And if it has indeed found a way to protect Windows, isn't it a tad exploitative to charge for it? Microsoft has no convincing answer for these questions . .
Another quote: "McAfee, Symantec and Microsoft (with Windows Live OneCare) all set your credit card up for automatic renewals when you purchase their security software on-line.
To me, it seems like this: Testing... Testing... How much abuse will computer users accept?
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Re:The fundamental problem is sloppy code in Windo (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that most for-pay software sucks in this regard, just look at any corporate network. Most computers have terrible performance and still wind up spreading worms and viruses.
I think the key here is that the company is telling us we need his product. In other news, a consultant came to the conclusion that we need more consulting, GM told me I need a new car, and McDonald's told me I need a McBurger. No shit, a company telling me I need their products? Nothing to see here, move along, look for an unbiased neutral party.
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Interesting)
look for an unbiased neutral party.
Unfortunately, these have become hard to find in our pay to play economy. And being able to tell who is a good unbiased source of information is a monumental challenge. So far, the only thing that seems to be for sure is that the louder and more often someone says that they are unbiased and neutral the less they are. I would throw out some names and advertising slogans but, I'm not wearing my flame-proof underwear (AC).
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Informative)
Virus Bulletin [virusbtn.com] unbiased enough?
Dunno if they have a more recent test, that's the one I had bookmarked. I get about the same results in my tests, btw.
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not just AV software. The entire software industry operates this way.
1. Shovel feature-rich bug-ware onto unsuspecting schlubs to build "brand" (especially in the enterprise/IT market where the person purchasing the software is often not the person who has to use it, so they make decisions based on feature list and brand name rather than quality)
2. Wait for hobbyists, researchers, or smaller companies to figure out how to do it right
3. Buy their companies
4. Repeat
Remember when Norton was actually decent? It was before Symantec bought them. After the acquisition, Symantec went back to Step 1 and gradually bloated and encrapified the antivirus. Now they are on Step 2. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought up someone like TrendMicro soon, spouting promises of a glorious and euphoria-inducing Norton/PC-cillin integration.
-- 77IM
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Insightful)
What went wrong? Why does this industry suck so badly? Anyone have any insight?
Disclaimer: I'm not any particular expert.
My guess is that at least part of the problem is that the only thing that AV software seems to do well is basically signature-based detection, which they had down pat a couple decades ago. So for the past few decades, mostly AV software only needed updates to work with new operating systems, bug fixes, and new signatures.
Now the only real problem with that is that these companies all want to release a new version of their software every year and have everyone re-buy it, because (for psychological reasons) people will pay more for that (or a subscription to receive "free" updates) than they'll pay for signature updates. This puts the companies in a position where it makes sense to throw some new bells and whistles into their product every year, whether or not they're sensible or effective. That leads to bloat.
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Funny)
WTF man. You actually get viruses often enough on your personal system and your mom's system that you can draw comparisons?
I think you are doing something horribly wrong. I haven't had a virus in 15 years or so.
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Re:Symantec is saying this? (Score:5, Informative)
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Predictable much? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Predictable much? (Score:5, Funny)
And Sony exec says all the movies on TPB are horrible quality. Ubisoft claims playing cracked games can cause skin rashes and your nuts to fall off.
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Re:Predictable much? (Score:5, Interesting)
And you just hit right on the head the biggest security measure you can do-get them off IE! I have found by getting them off IE, either with FF, Seamonkey(the older folks seem to prefer its Netscape style layout to FF), Kmeleon(for older machines) or Flock(for those into social networking) the rate of infection goes WAY down with my users.
The second biggest security advice I can give is don't make your users think. I have Comodo [comodo.com] set to auto scan nightly based on their usage patterns, Spybot set to do the same, Foxit [foxitsoftware.com] does its own updates, Windows set to autoupdate, etc. I have found that by relying on the user as little as possible it helps to keep the system up to date and less of a target. Relying on the user is how so many end up with a four year old out of date Symantec "product" as the only AV on a users machine.
But I personally think it is funny that the head of Symantec is warning about free AVs, when oftentimes his "product" will drag a machine to its knees worse than any malware infection! When I hand the customer a box that previously had Symantec their machine with something like Comodo installed the first thing they comment on is how much faster their machine is, which is kinda sad, as once upon a time (during the days of DOS and Win9X) Norton was a sign of quality. But like most things Symantec touches Norton turned to crap. BTW, is there any product the Symantec bought that hasn't turned to crap?
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Lies, damned lies, and statistics (Score:5, Insightful)
And *that* is a crap statistic; it does nothing to describe the severities of the vulnerabilities, the vendor response, or the amount of time each was left unpatched. Who cares if FF had 184 vulnerabilities and IE 1, if the FF ones were hard to exploit and patched within a few days and the IE one was left open all year and readily attackable by script kiddies?
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Re:Lies, damned lies, and statistics (Score:4, Insightful)
In the end it boils down to what actual malware is out there in the wild.
"exploit statistics" are just numbers that are abused by people that need
to make up excuses for not being willing to dump crap and just use a better
product.
It's not the number of buffer overflow bugs in Firefox, it's the number of
actual trojans in the wild for Explorer.
Microsoft for a long time has suffered from this strange idea that they
can enhance the end user experience by allowing and piece of crap code
from any untrusted source to execute by default and run amok in the system.
Apple doesn't do it.
The Unixen don't do it.
Other Windows app vendors don't even do it.
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In other news (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft warns against free operating systems. "They're so inferior! Look at ours, it runs the London Stock Exchange...oh wait."
--
BMO
Re:In other news (Score:5, Funny)
Some sources say that over 80% of desktop computers are infected with a virus called Windows.
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Re:In other news (Score:5, Funny)
Some sources say that over 80% of desktop computers are infected with a virus called Windows.
It was 90% ten years ago. Virus removal takes a very long time. Just ask Symantec
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Be Afraid! Buy Our Product! (Score:5, Insightful)
If Symantec's "security" security programs were worth a damn, the "free" products wouldn't stand a chance. So far, that hasn't been the case eh?
Re:Be Afraid! Buy Our Product! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Be Afraid! Buy Our Product! (Score:5, Funny)
two criteria:
a) If made by Norton, Symantec, or is sold at PC World, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.
b) If it costs money, I won't touch it with a barge-pole.
c) It I install it, and it sucks, it goes out.
I have a large stock of unused barge-poles, please see my e-bay shop.
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Rock and hard place (Score:5, Insightful)
Fortunately, there are many free anti-virus products that work better than Symantec. It's a no-brainer choice. Free is cheaper and better.
I have no understanding of how Symantec remains in business. There's something deeply wrong with that.
Re:Rock and hard place (Score:4, Interesting)
I can explain that to you. It's called a delusional dominant reality.
If you act as if you were the godking of antivirus, you will start to ignore your flaws. If you then are so strong in that belief, that you pull others into it, they will start to ignore them too.
As you might imagine, this is quite easy with the uninformed masses, who never have seen anything else.
I mean that "Dr. Norton" with his white doctor coat, his cool name, and all this... He looks so sure of himself. And others have it too. So it must be good. Ever if it is bad there, and there, and there, and there, etc.
It's the same thing that makes you believe a medical doctor actually had any more competence than a better pharmacist. And him stating "there is no cure" except of "I did not go to a further training for the last three decades, and just don't know a cure, but there might be one, and we still have to find it", does not help it. (This is his delusional dominant reality in action.)
It is also the thing that can make you good at dating, pickup, etc. (Don't hear to the Mistery method losers and their a million and one imitators. That stuff is outdated for at least a decade now.)
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You get what you pay for. (Score:5, Insightful)
Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Meh (Score:5, Informative)
I won't run Symantec on my network. When I first took over, everything was Symantec 11, and it was just horrifyingly bad. Pretty much every time I logged into my workstation, I had to kill the rtvscan process, and users were always complaining. When the license renewal came in, I just crumpled it up and through it in the garbage. I had had some experience with F-Prot from when I was working at a small ISP, and decided "what the hell". The licenses were cheap (I did forty computers for $200 a year), it's very lightweight and while I can't do remote scans and the like, the LAN version is dead-dog simple, it just copies the definitions from the server. Even then, it still screws up on occasion, but a helluva lot less than Symantec ever did.
All in all, however, I despise AV products.
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Re:Meh (Score:4, Informative)
I've found that free anti-virus, like Avira and Avast, pretty good
I can second this whole-heartedly. I work in a computer shop, and I can personally testify that these two products catch more infections than anything Symantec, McAffee, or Trend Micro EVER came out with. I still recommend Malwarebytes Antimalware [malwarebytes.org] as a supplementary spyware scanner, but Avast and Avira are definitely my favorite for main protection.
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Anything is better than Norton (Score:5, Interesting)
Dear Symantec,
The reason you are steadily losing market share has less to do with the availability of reasonably good antivirus software for free, and more to do with the staggeringly awful quality of your own products. Norton Internet Security was so completely terrible, that not only did it fail to stop critical attacks, but it slowed down systems more than the worst available spyware infections. Removing those spyware infections was also easier than removing your software, because the uninstaller would fail more often than it would function. I began to keep the latest version of the Symantec removal tool in my kit because it was better to assume the uninstall would fail, and not bother to use it. Until I managed to get a significant portion of my clients away from your products, they paid me to fix problems with your software more often than any other single product by a factor of 10. At this point, even if your company came out with the perfect security product, I would advise my clients not to buy it purely based on past experience, because you do not deserve their money.
Not QUITE right (Score:5, Interesting)
You know what is really a non-protection in AV? Products from large companies. No, really.
Malware is today routinely tested against the big players before it's leaving the door. More and more often, you also see protection against specific AV suits (Norton, McAfee, Kaspersky are amongst the top on that list), where the malware specifically tries to disable those AV suits or at least blocks updates.
Malware protecting against smaller players in the AV field is rare. Market dictates that. It does not pay to protect your malware against an AV suit the market share or which is less than 5 percent.
So, I essentially agree with him: MS Antivirus will offer ... well, let me say not the best protection, because EVERY piece of malware will be tested and hardened against it. But, and I guess Mr. Hall will not enjoy that, Symantec doesn't offer protection any better, because, since they're big enough with a big enough market share, they, too, are on the malware writer's radar.
They Have A Point (Score:5, Funny)
W^X (Score:4, Interesting)
...
On the other hand, I know plenty of people running active commercial anti-virus software that's been plagued with virii.
The reason?
1. No Awareness.
2. No Patching.
3. No Prudence.
4. Running Windows
There. Fixed that for you.
Worm/Virus are spread so fast these days, the AV software just can't catch up in time to prevent the infection and in quite a few cases, the Worm/Virus disables the AV software, making it more difficult (in some cases impossible) to remove the infection without booting to another OS (Live OS from a CD/USB Drive).
Except that spreading fast is nothing new. Most worms hit peak a few hours sooner than the average time it takes for the AV makers to create and push out a new profile.
That's why I use ClamWin for occasional scanning.
ClamWin, ClamAV are fine for remedial action. The best remedy, as in all things, is prevention and that can be accomplished by moving to systems that are resistant to malware. Here even the consumer unions fall flat on their faces and fail to mention the Linux distros. Most mainstream distros are years ahead of Windows as far as ease of use, maintenance and speed. The main weakness of real systems (non-M$) is that Web 2.0 script crap.
If someone wanted to make a really hardened desktop or netbook appliance, the following steps can be taken:
I wrote the word appliance above, because with extreme settings like that, you are not going to want to try to add, remove or radically reconfigure any packages.
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Re:Of course... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know that myth stays in circulation, but trust me: AV companies do not write malware. For two reasons:
First, AV companies do talk a lot. Not only at conferences. There's a well built and solid network of sample exchange between them. Of course, you delay it a few hours or a day before you forward your new samples to the others so you can have a 'first', but a global malware detection array is in nobody's budget possible. So they split the world and detect together. Should it become known that you spew malware yourself, you're OUT. And that means you're dead.
And second, why bother the cost? You get the malware for free anyway. There are people who make it their (illegal, but who cares?) business to write and spread it. Why should I invest money into something I get free of charge?
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