New Video of Tesla's Mass-Market Electric Car 462
Slatterz writes "The Tesla Roadster has almost mythical status among electric car enthusiasts. It's fast, with high torque over a wide RPM range, and can beat a Ferrari in terms of acceleration. Now Tesla has released new video of its upcoming new electric car, called the Model S, which Tesla Motors claims is the world's first mass produced fully-electric vehicle. Unlike the Lotus-Elise based Roadster, the Model S is a traditional sedan of the type millions of commuters might actually drive. Tesla claims it will fit seven people (if two of them are 'children under 10'), and has mounted a rather large 17in LCD in the dash. Key to Telsa's future will be the evolution of lithium-ion battery technology. Tesla Motors claiming the new Model S can travel up to 300 miles on a single charge, but the battery will still take 45 minutes to quick-recharge." (And for those in countries where it matters, this article mentions that it should also be available in right-hand drive.)
Re:New Video of Tesla's... (Score:1, Informative)
Model S not T (Score:3, Informative)
At $50,000 do they think it is too expensive to call it the model T? Do they think calling it the model T would be too arrogant? Maybe the next one will be cheaper and then they will go ahead and give it the next name. After all we would all like to see the model T version of the electric car that will get us off of expensive oil.
Re:How about better range? (Score:5, Informative)
Instead of wasting energy making it accelerate unnecessarily quickly, how about giving it a usefully long range
Why would you assume they can trade battery life for low end torque? One property of electrical engines is they allow for faster acceleration on the low end. It's not like they can somehow get rid of this acceleration while still having an electrical motor with the same top speed and I don't see how they can get more battery life out of the same either.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:2, Informative)
300 miles will take some 4 hours to drive, you could prob do with at least a 45 min rest ... so this is finally acceptable range for an electric car.
The article says 80% charge in under 10 minutes.
Re:How about better range? (Score:5, Informative)
> Instead of wasting energy making it accelerate unnecessarily quickly, how about giving
> it a usefully long range?
This is electric, not gas. That isn't a tradeoff. Any electric motor capable of acceptable performance at highway speeds will accelerate very well: it's the way electric motors are. If you put in a feeble motor barely able to go 65mph on the level you would only gain a little range, and nobody would buy it. And it could still lay rubber.
Re:Memory Effect (Score:4, Informative)
So the Tesla Roadster actually has better acceleration than the Rapide, and considering Wikipedia quotes the Rapide at $240k USD compared to the $110~120k USD for the 2009 Roadster, I'd say the roadster wins on bang for buck there. The Model S in tfa is set to cost ~$49k USD and is still one helluva luxury car. And more than just the initial price, the Model S (supposedly according to Tesla marketing anyway) will cost only $4 dollars to fully recharge from empty.
I could probably rant all day, but the point is, the offerings from Tesla Motors puts an electric car with performance as high as the gas equivalent in the price range of mere mortals and doesn't require you to be an Apple stock millionaire or sell your ocean front property just to buy the damned car...
Re:Right-hand drive? (Score:2, Informative)
Not true. An imported car must be registered with the DVLA, and must meet certain standards. LHD cars are perfectly legal, and relatively common -- especially with sought-after vehicles, such as the early Smarts.
See: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_4022583 [direct.gov.uk]
Re:Lithium Ion battery safety? (Score:5, Informative)
STOP THAT NONSENSE! Lithium is CHEAP. You can extract it from the saltwater for $50-70 per kg. if all else fails, but right now it's just easier to buy it for $20 per kg. in Bolivia.
Lithium so far is SO CHEAP that it makes no sense to make geological surveys specially for it.
Also, it's almost perfectly recyclable.
Re:Memory Effect (Score:1, Informative)
45-minute charge? As has been pointed out, the math doesn't add up, and the chemistry doesn't work either
The math does work out, provided you can supply the required current. However, it probably requires the 480v-3phase to do so. They say it costs $4 to fully charge, so I'll go with the low cost of $0.10/kwh, giving 40kwh total required. A 480v-3phase connector can supply >30amps/phase, which does work out to about 45 min for a full charge.
Also, the lithium chemistry does support charging that quickly.
Re:Top Gear found... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Lithium Ion battery safety? (Score:5, Informative)
Lithium scarcity is one of those myths that just won't die. It's based on a few misguided notions: 1) that lithium makes up most of a lithium-ion battery (it doesn't); 2) it's its most expensive element in a lithium-ion battery (it isn't); and 3) a gross misunderstanding of how reserve figures work.
In reference to the latter case, everyone needs to get in their heads that reserve figures are based on A) what's been found, at B) the current price, and C) current technology. In reference to lithium, A) people haven't really been looking for it because it's so cheap; B) it's dirt cheap; and C) the tech to produce it cheaper hasn't really been needed so it hasn't been worked on.
Even with current tech, a figure of li-ion EVs could easily be sustained through seawater extraction indefinitely. Isn't that the beginning and end of the issue right there?
Re:Top Gear found... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Insane price (Score:5, Informative)
It's important to note where the cash burn came from. Initially Tesla was looking at a car that'd only cost $60k to build; they discovered, through an audit partway through development, that it actually cost over $120k to build. They jacked up the price to $109k and have been optimizing it for a while, and finally have it down to where they make about $10k per Roadster -- not a lot for a car that expensive, but not pocket change either. At the same time, as a company, they're still losing money, as they're pumping a lot into Model S development. But they got the loan because they met the DOE's requirement to have a profitable core business (in this case, the Roadster).
Reality check can't be cashed (Score:3, Informative)
notice the 45 minute quick charge.
I don't think it's possible that you could get 300 miles on a 45 minute charge off of a regular household power line.
my estimate:
to push a honda accord shaped object at 55 mph through the air takes over 30KW of energy. that would take 5.4 hours. to to recharge that would take 220 KW of power assuming no conversion loss.
if you used a 220 volt line that would be 1000 amps for 45 minutes. There's no way they would use a 480 volt line since those are catastrophically unsafe for consumers.
I don't have a 1000 amp service at my house!
So I don't think the 45 minute quick charge can be used int he same sentence as the 300 miles. But if its some lesser milage then the whole 45 minute statment seems weirdly arbitrary. Why not say it has a 5 minute quick charge?
Since the tesla folks are not stupid and have delivered in the past, I'm perplexed what is going on. Are there going to be special kilo amp charging stations. or did I bork my own math?
Re:Model S not T (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Model S not T (Score:3, Informative)
Every manufacturer test-marketed electric vehicles in the California market, not just GM.
None of them panned out because the cars were ridiculously expensive to build so they had to lease them at a fraction of cost.
GM is bankrupt. How would building yet another unprofitable vehicle help them?
Re:Quick battery change stations (Score:4, Informative)
so if you drive a car for 5 hours at 30KW then want to recharge it in 10 minutes that means you need 900KW of power. it also means the wires in the car need to be able to handle 30 times the typical driving load.
if the connector was a 208V connector then that's about 4000 DC amps for ten minutes.
you'll be able to degauss your hard drive while you wait!
Re:Anyone know the economics on these? (Score:3, Informative)
My point is that this thing has way, way too much acceleration and that as a result, there are gasoline cars that come close to it in terms of ongoing operating costs. The whole point of going electric is to lower your costs,
Stop. Right. There.
This car has superior performance to any other car in its class, period.
and if it isn't doing that, why not buy a luxury gas-powered car? Give me 0-60 in 7-8 seconds and that's plenty.
Says you.
The performance level of this vehicle is important to get the early adopters necessary to make it credible. It's also necessary to justify the price on an unproven technology (electric cars are known to work, but this package is so far untested.)
The NEXT vehicle is intended to be a basic sedan with ordinary performance and much more range. This has always been part of the Tesla Motors game plan, so if you are actually interested in this subject you have zero excuse for not knowing this.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:2, Informative)
Which is precisely why Tesla is doing a good job in making these toys cool.