New Video of Tesla's Mass-Market Electric Car 462
Slatterz writes "The Tesla Roadster has almost mythical status among electric car enthusiasts. It's fast, with high torque over a wide RPM range, and can beat a Ferrari in terms of acceleration. Now Tesla has released new video of its upcoming new electric car, called the Model S, which Tesla Motors claims is the world's first mass produced fully-electric vehicle. Unlike the Lotus-Elise based Roadster, the Model S is a traditional sedan of the type millions of commuters might actually drive. Tesla claims it will fit seven people (if two of them are 'children under 10'), and has mounted a rather large 17in LCD in the dash. Key to Telsa's future will be the evolution of lithium-ion battery technology. Tesla Motors claiming the new Model S can travel up to 300 miles on a single charge, but the battery will still take 45 minutes to quick-recharge." (And for those in countries where it matters, this article mentions that it should also be available in right-hand drive.)
Insane price (Score:2, Insightful)
So much for it being affordable...
$49,000 USD AFTER deducting the $7,500 federal tax credit.
Europe (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lithium Ion battery safety? (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a bigger issue with regards to the batteries... where do we get all of the lithium for them?
While it's certainly a noble effort to try to reduce/end our dependency on foreign oil, few realize that the major supplies of lithium are outside of the USA... effectively meaning we replace one addiction/dependency for another.
Re:Anyone know the economics on these? (Score:2, Insightful)
It actually does say: They claim capacity 300 miles, $4 a recharge. Thats 1.35 cent a mile.
Re:Insane price (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not for me. 4 hours is nothing in the midwest. I currently live 5 hours from my parents house. When we drove to NYC last year it took 12. 15-20 minutes max for a break, otherwise your journey takes for ever.
Still, that's not too typical for most people's day-to-day routine. And like the previous poster said, I would expect that most people can live with a 45 minute break every 4 hours on long car trips. You stretch your legs and maybe get something to eat, and then you're ready to go.
Actually, the funny thing in my mind is that, given your examples, I would probably be much more frustrated with the 5 hour trip than the 12 hour trip. If you're already taking a 12 hour trip, adding an extra hour or two of rest time doesn't seem that extreme to me. Hell, you might even think of it as a safety feature to help prevent road-hypnosis.
But imagine your battery lasts for 300 miles and you regularly make a trip that's 320 miles long. To have to stop 20 miles short of your destination and recharge for 45 minutes then would be pretty annoying. On the other hand, I would suppose you could just charge for 10 minutes and keep going. If it's like most batteries, it recharges most of the way pretty quickly, and then takes a long time to get that last 10% of charge.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Lithium Ion battery safety? (Score:2, Insightful)
Imported oil is consumed by driving... maybe at an average rate on about one tank full of gasoline per week.
Imported lithium for replacement electric batteries will be consumed at maybe an average rate of one battery pack replacement per 10 years, with probably some recycling ability of the lithium from a used battery pack.
I think we are talking about drastically different scales of foreign import dependence.
Re:Model S not T (Score:3, Insightful)
Early adopters make economies of scale a realize goal. People who bought the roadster showed that there was continuing interest in a cheaper, more massly produced vehicle. People who buy the model S will do the same. Tesla does want to create a car that they can sell for $20k to $30k. If you have the money why not become an early adopter? Right here is hopefully the future of the automobile industry.
Re:Anyone know the economics on these? (Score:5, Insightful)
Purely on economics, the Fit hybrid or any economy-oriented turbodiesel car will beat out the Tesla Model S, no doubt about it.
But none of those are capable of doing 0-60 in under 6 seconds. The Model S is a luxury sedan meant to compete with the offerings from BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar etc., not with econoboxes.
Your $10,000 vehicle conversion will be nowhere near the same quality nor performance as a Model S, you're being silly.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:1, Insightful)
The battery pack you get for $57.4K (the cheapest model) is a 160 mile pack, not a 300 mile pack.
And you aren't going to be able to fully charge it in 45 minutes. LIons just won't stand for it. You should be able to put 85% of the charge in in 45 minutes, but since it such rapid charging reduces the lifespan of the battery, Tesla doesn't recommend you charge it in 45 minutes (at least they don't recommend it for the Roadster, this has a similar pack so I presume this is the same).
Acceptable range is kind of a tricky idea, if you had a charger everywhere, then this might be okay. But instead, you are likely to drive to your range and find there is no place to charge it at your stopover or destination.
Here's an example of how the difficulties in recharging an electric car makes it less useful than a gas car.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog5/?p=68 [teslamotors.com]
This guy took a 40 hour trip and spent 8 hours of it waiting for his car to charge. 4 hours walking (twice) around an RV park waiting for his car to charge to 88%.
And he really enjoyed his trip! The point is for the battery to last for everyday commutes, if you're going to do any kind of distance you can either wait for it to charge and read a book or something (people are so impatient these days) or just rent a car for the trip...
99% of people won't need more than 100 miles a day, and that's the whole point. How often do you actually do more than 300 miles in a day, for me it would be 1-2x a year and i wouldn't mind renting something for those trips.
Re:Europe (Score:3, Insightful)
Can you guys quit the high-fiving and general atmosphere of butt-massage therapy so we can get back to businness and have a decent f*cking flamewar? What the hell are you people doing on slashdot? Were you not told it was mean to ruin the fun for everyone else? Jesus H Christ in a Tesla. We're trrying to have a having automobile piss contest here. WTF?
And happy independence day, doo-doo heads.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, now I'm going to rent a car? So now I don't need a rest?
People are ready to make all kinds of excuses as to why short range cars are okay. Many of them are even accurate. The problem is that consumers don't seem to agree with the arguments. People are using to paying a little and getting more car than they need. Getting them to warm up to the idea of paying a lot and getting less car than they need is going to take a lot f convincing.
In the mean time, turns out 300 miles is not sufficient range, which is the point I refuted.
I think it's hilarious you would just tell someone they have to spend more than 20% of their trip (25% if you subtract out the 8 hours sleeping) waiting for their car to charge. And they should be thankful for it.
I mean, if I wanted to spend 8 hours walking around an RV park, I can do that on a trip I take with my gas car. So there's no advantage to being forced to do it.
This guy took a trip where he never went over 80% of rated range of his car in a day and he still felt he had to stop to recharge it during the day 3 times in two days! If nothing else, range anxiety is a huge issue.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing is, unless they're rich, people don't buy a car based on their day-to-day routine. They buy a car based on how well it can handle all their driving needs. If a car that suits their day-to-day driving needs can't handle an annual 12 hour drive to grandma's for Thanksgiving, they're not going to buy a second car just for that one trip. They're going to eliminate the electric from consideration and buy one car that can handle both needs.
I've proposed that people rent a car for their once-a-year trips, and the common reply is that it'd be a "waste of money" when you "already own a car." Not to mention rental cars would be in short supply with jacked up prices around holidays like Thanksgiving. The fiscal benefit of an electric car for day-to-day travel would have to outweigh the cost of renting for that once-a-year trip. A decent rail system would also fill this need for intermediate trip lengths, but alas the U.S. has sacrificed its rail system for freeways. Plug-in hybrids are also a good solution, since they can fill up at a gas station if need be. But then you're carrying around all that weight of an ICU which is only used a few times a year.
Re:More affordable alternatives (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:3, Insightful)
If a car that suits their day-to-day driving needs can't handle an annual 12 hour drive to grandma's for Thanksgiving, they're not going to buy a second car just for that one trip.
But:
People's needs are really more fluid than they like to admit. I don't think a 45 minute break every 4 hours is going to be a deal breaker for most people. If it is, it might be more psychological than based on real need. There may be some people who really drive around all day and need a better distance per charge ratio, just like there are people who genuinely need a pickup truck, but it's really not that common.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly! Earlier this year, I needed a cargo van to move a furnace up from Missouri. So I rented one. I need a cargo van about once every year. Does that mean I should buy a cargo van, make it my daily commuter? Nobody would ever suggest that. But then they apply that exact same logic to EVs.
Personally, in terms of range extension, I'm fond of towable generators. Range-extended when you need it, and not when you don't. And it'd be so trivial to set up a genset rental shop once such vehicles are on the market in any relevant numbers. Compared to what they have versus what a rental car has, I imagine it'd cost about $15-$20 a day.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Europe (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Memory Effect (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Insane price... For taxis a no brainer. (Score:4, Insightful)
And it's still going to be a lot of fuel, burned somewhere else to make this car's electricity. We need nukes, since the wind and solar things will never put a dent in a massive shift to cars like this.
Re:Insane price (Score:5, Insightful)
What you really mean is: after the $7,500 more in taxes that other people, who can't afford this car, will be paying on behalf of the person who can afford it. That's nice. So progressive.
Re:Insane price (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, it's the tax break for borrowing money to buy a house that we're really talking about here. And yes, it bugs the hell out of me. Local jurisdictions might want to provide some sort of financial incentive for people to buy property in their area (and some do - with the provision that the buyer occupy the house personall for some period of time), but forcing a taxpayer renting an apartment in Wyoming to help a guy in New Jersey buy a house is
Re:More affordable alternatives (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know, the aptera seats 2 (3 if one is an infant), goes 120miles on a charge and runs 30k for the electric model. The model S seats 5 (7 if you put two dead 10 year olds in the trunk), has a 300 mile range, and runs $60k. If you had to take 4 people on trips regularly, the model S is a better deal. It's also more likely to be accepted at you local country club, where people tend to have 30k+ to drop on a second car.
The Volt is dead on arrival, imho, as a real "alternative" vehicle. 40 miles on a charge? You'd think they could do better than Elon's hobby business.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:3, Insightful)
It'd work best as a second car in a two car family. Neither my wife or I even remotely get close to 100 miles in a day. We only go longer on vacations, in which case we'd be together.
So yeah...I'd buy one of these and use my wife's gas powered car for long trips.
I'm not sure you can say "consumers don't agree" because consumers haven't really had the opportunity to buy an electric car that performed like a gas one, even ignoring range.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:5, Insightful)
Another interesting point: My current vehicle can travel almost double that distance on a tank of gasoline, and takes seconds to refill. This is important because it's almost 500 miles to the next city from where I live -- I can travel to the next city with one tank of gas, but I'd need to refill the battery 3 times to comfortably make it by electric car, since I'm not going to let my batteries run to 0%.
Will the 8 hour drive to the next town become a multiple day journey? Will I need to start planning to visit hotels where now I can just ignore the towns? Will we see a re-emergence of small refueling towns, as we saw in the age of coal-based rail, thanks to the significantly reduced range of our vehicles?
Or, much more logically, will we see people using their electric cars for the daily everyday travel and simply use other options for long-range travel? I don't get the emphasis people are placing on these over 200 miles trips. How often do you drive that much? If the answer is 2 or 3 times a year, then the electric car should suit you just fine the vast majority of the time. If the answer is, "very often" then the electric car isn't for you, but it still is perfect for 99.5% of the driving population. It's not like gas cars are going to disappear overnight because kickass electric cars are finally here.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:3, Insightful)
That would basically be my thought process. Unless there is some huge benefit to driving a Tesla, it would simply not even be worth considering; if I bought one, I would then have to turn around and buy a second 'real' car.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not how people weigh choices. They will wonder "Will I ever need to travel more than 200 miles? Yes? Ok, that rules out the Tesla." That would basically be my thought process. Unless there is some huge benefit to driving a Tesla, it would simply not even be worth considering; if I bought one, I would then have to turn around and buy a second 'real' car.
It's your money, and you can use whatever thought process you want as to how to spend it, but that doesn't make it logical. If you only need to make a few over 200 mile trips a year, the money you'll save on gas will pay for the car rental. So the only thing that makes sense to ask is, "is this a better car for the majority of my driving needs and is there an alternative I can easily take for those exceptions where this car just isn't suitable?"
For me, the answer is yes on both counts. The only thing preventing me from buying the car is that I'm not in the market for a new car, much less a $50,000 one. The range isn't an issue at all.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:3, Insightful)
Turning my 8 hour trip into an 11 hour trip is a big deal.
First, it wouldn't turn your 8 hour trip into an 11 hour trip. If the Tesla car only needs to be charged every 4 hours, then you only have to stop once to recharge to go 8 hours. So that's 8:45. Plus, there's a good chance your 8-hour trip already includes one stop or more for gas, a couple bathroom breaks, and a stop for a snack, so you extend any one of those stops by a few minutes and charge your car a little more, and you're not necessarily losing much time at all.
But anyway, adding an hour or two to an 8 hour trip really isn't that big a deal. Quit your whining. Go back in time 100 years, and that 8 hour trip would have taken a week, and the world didn't stop spinning. Yeah, sometimes creating a better world requires accepting some mild inconveniences. If you really can't handle an extra 45 minutes on an 8 hour trip, then fly.
Re:Anyone know the economics on these? (Score:3, Insightful)
How do you plan to build a three-wheeled vehicle narrow enough to used bike paths and store like a bicycle? Obviously the seating arrangement can't be side-by-side... but I think once you want a third wheel, second seat, and shelter from the elements you're talking about a vehicle that's just too wide and cumbersome to steer to go on a bike path. Bike paths are bad enough when used by the very narrow and nimble vehicles they're intended for; these would be worse than rollerbladers and recomb bikers put together.
Bike paths aren't really a good design target anyway. There aren't that many of them compared to roads, and they're mostly very poorly designed for efficient and safe riding (much less driving!). Instead think about roads. In many places you're going to need to get it out on major roads to get where you're going, which means it either needs to be fast enough to keep up with traffic or narrow enough to be passed. At least until it takes over the world and transportation laws and infrastructure are reformed to fit its requirements.
Ultimately you're basically looking at a motorcycle. Many of them have two seats and luggage space, and if you're wearing the proper clothing for safety you're protected from the elements. Or just pedaling an old-fashioned bike.
Re:Quick battery change stations (Score:5, Insightful)
the electric car is not for you, get over it.
there are plenty of people like me who barely ever travel more than 100km in a day and for us an electric car is perfect. No one is trying to sell one to you. Go and troll some other article.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:2, Insightful)
I think that Tesla would be far better off selling this in Europe than the USA first, simply due to the range limitation not being a massive issue here.
For example, you're meant to stop every two hours for a break, definitely every three hours. That's about 150 - 220 miles driving distance. A quick ten minute recharge is therefore quite viable, as long as petrol stations could create enough recharging bays (effectively a large amount of the service station car park would have powered bays, in the long run, you drop in a few coins and get charged for the next 200 miles). In the UK service stations are every 20 to 50 miles, and most cities are well within 300 miles of each other.
I'd also like to see how they safely fit SEVEN people in that car.
Also a small house in the UK is £150k, and this car is around £40k, so that's quite a difference compared to your analogy.
On the other hand the cost savings from operating an electric car would have to be vast to make up for a car that costs double an equivalent petrol car, and has the downside of no existing recharging infrastructure (is there even a standard recharge socket design yet?).
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:1, Insightful)
But some people do exactly this "second car" thing. The commuting breadwinner has one car and the other spouse has a SUV to haul the kids around in. SUV for long trips, other car for daily work trips.
I see this as working out just fine for a lot of families.
Of course, I can see where a lot of Slashdotters probably forgot to think about anyone but a single person.
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:2, Insightful)
8 hours is what? 500 miles? This vehicle has a range of 300, so you'd only need a single recharge en-route, and there's no way any responsible person would drive 8 hours straight without at least 2 breaks for toilet, food and refueling anyway, so I really do doubt that you would extend your journey that much. There's really no need to exaggerate the effect to ridiculous levels (11 hours indeed!) because it ruins any argument you might have had.
In addition it is likely that petrol stations will introduce fast charge stations for electric cars as they get more popular. OTOH I'm sure the price per unit would be a lot higher than it is for home supplies. Drive into the service station, drop $5 into the machine and plug it up, then pop in for a coffee, sammich and piss, and come out rested later and the car's ready to go.
If you live in hogbutt creek, middle of fuckallnowhere, then maybe an electric car won't become an option for ten to twenty years, but that's an entirely different issue.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They Call THAT Affordable?!? (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate to tell you, but we also produce a goodly chunk of the world's food and lumber.
The reason the houses are so far apart is because there's rather a lot of land in between that either grows trees or food.
Re:Europe (Score:3, Insightful)
For electricity, I am looking at installing solar as I live in Southern California and it's break even in about eight years. Add this in and it's a no-brainer.
As far as maintenance issues, I didn't calculate any major maintenance costs for either this or internal combustion as I specifically stated: "I'm not going to even mention stuff like no fuel filter, fuel injector cleaning, all that crap. We'll assume some irritating yearly maintenance is required for this as well." The Tesla website says every 12 months or 12K miles.
Battery life is definitely something to consider, and if it can't maintain 50% after ten years (I really could care less whether it's 300 miles or 150 personally.) then that cost would have to be figured in. From what I've read though, that shouldn't be an issue. You lose 20-30% in five years and then it begins degrading much slower.
So yeah, overall, $40K - $16.5K = $23.5K is very doable for me and not in the toy realm at all. My last car was $17K used and my wife's car was $12K (bought this year during the automotive crash). The utility of next to no service or fillups and silent operation is worth at least $3K over the life of the car so that puts it at around $20K for me. That is far from the realm of "rich person's toy".