New Video of Tesla's Mass-Market Electric Car 462
Slatterz writes "The Tesla Roadster has almost mythical status among electric car enthusiasts. It's fast, with high torque over a wide RPM range, and can beat a Ferrari in terms of acceleration. Now Tesla has released new video of its upcoming new electric car, called the Model S, which Tesla Motors claims is the world's first mass produced fully-electric vehicle. Unlike the Lotus-Elise based Roadster, the Model S is a traditional sedan of the type millions of commuters might actually drive. Tesla claims it will fit seven people (if two of them are 'children under 10'), and has mounted a rather large 17in LCD in the dash. Key to Telsa's future will be the evolution of lithium-ion battery technology. Tesla Motors claiming the new Model S can travel up to 300 miles on a single charge, but the battery will still take 45 minutes to quick-recharge." (And for those in countries where it matters, this article mentions that it should also be available in right-hand drive.)
Anyone know the economics on these? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's great to see an electric car this cool for so cheap. I mean, $50k isn't cheap, but it's cheap in comparison to their other car, an it seems generally more practical. If I were going to buy a car, I might consider this, but I might very well decide that $50k is just too much.
I'm wondering, though, does anyone know what kind of profit margin Tesla is getting on these? Is the government subsidizing these at all (for environmental reasons)? Are they in the sort of situation where, as they start selling, Tesla will enjoy economy of scale and prices will go down substantially? Or is this price pretty firm?
Re:Model S not T (Score:4, Interesting)
"After all we would all like to see the model T version of the electric car that will get us off of expensive oil."
For that to happen, early adopters must drop the cash on much more expensive vehicles, just as they did before Henry Ford produced the Model T. Early adopters will be more likely to forgive faults that buyers of an econobox would not.
At fifty grand for a beta version, I'll be better off letting the rich folks purchase those.
You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not for me. 4 hours is nothing in the midwest. I currently live 5 hours from my parents house. When we drove to NYC last year it took 12. 15-20 minutes max for a break, otherwise your journey takes for ever.
I'll stick to my Diesel Jetta which can run on Diesel, Biodiesel created from waste oil, crushed soybeans, algae, liquefied natural gas (GTL), or liquefied coal gas (GTL), any one of a number of renewable resources. If I stretch it I can get 800 to a TANK and still refill in 5-10 minutes.
Right hand drive is overrated (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:How about better range? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's about the torque. Those electric motors have full torque when they start moving, unlike the internal combustion types that need to spin up to a certain RPM to maximize torque. The transmission tries to even this out, but with an electric, you just have more acceleration from a stop by the nature of the design. I'm more interested in how fast they can go from 60-100 mph, like when you need to pass someone. In theory it would be similar, but not better.
If I had the money, it would be a no-brainer for me. Since I don't have the money, it's still a no-brainer, but on the side of "no".
Re:You prob want a rest after 300 miles (Score:5, Interesting)
The battery pack you get for $57.4K (the cheapest model) is a 160 mile pack, not a 300 mile pack.
And you aren't going to be able to fully charge it in 45 minutes. LIons just won't stand for it. You should be able to put 85% of the charge in in 45 minutes, but since it such rapid charging reduces the lifespan of the battery, Tesla doesn't recommend you charge it in 45 minutes (at least they don't recommend it for the Roadster, this has a similar pack so I presume this is the same).
Acceptable range is kind of a tricky idea, if you had a charger everywhere, then this might be okay. But instead, you are likely to drive to your range and find there is no place to charge it at your stopover or destination.
Here's an example of how the difficulties in recharging an electric car makes it less useful than a gas car.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog5/?p=68 [teslamotors.com]
This guy took a 40 hour trip and spent 8 hours of it waiting for his car to charge. 4 hours walking (twice) around an RV park waiting for his car to charge to 88%.
Re:Lithium Ion battery safety? (Score:2, Interesting)
The article says 80% charge in under 10 minutes. (Score:4, Interesting)
The article is optimistic in my opinion.
Let's assume they're talking about the same pack as in the Roadster (even though the pack you get for $57.4K is lesser capacity). That means you're putting in 45kWh in 10 minutes. That's a charge rate of more than 270kW. That will require 440V power (3-phase) at 600A! And that's assuming 100% efficiency!
There's going to be a lot of places where you can't get that much power. And even if you can, the amount of waste heat giving off by the charger, and in the pack will be very difficult to manage. Also, the charging cable would be a bit of a hassle to wrestle because it's going to be very thick.
Tesla Roadster test drive report (Score:5, Interesting)
Executive Summary: Oh. My. God.
Systems Lacking: 4-point harnesses, sufficient handholds for passenger, automated system to maintain directional control during GLOC on launch, earplugs to block whimpering sounds from passenger seat
Re:Model S not T (Score:5, Interesting)
The Blackstar (Roadster) was the 'infinite money' car. The White Star (Model S) is proof it can be mass produced.
The Bluestar (Model T?) will be the $20K 'car of the masses'.
Re:Right-hand drive? (Score:3, Interesting)
Cars around most (though not all) of the world are specificlaly designed so that the driver is as close to the middle of the road as possible. This is a safety feature; it makes it easier to control where you are relative to oncoming traffic. After a few years of driving you probably don't even notice anymore (I don't) but new drivers have a real tendency to try and put themselves toward the middle of the lane. On a left-hand drive (in the US) this means they end up taking a bit of the shoulder, or lane going to same direction. Right-hand drive would put them over the center divider.
Re:Circus car? (Score:3, Interesting)
More accurately, it's 5+2 seating -- two mini rear-facing seats in the back. Not many believe those will actually make it to the production version, but it's another in a long line of pretty shrewd marketing efforts by Tesla to break all of the EV stereotypes one by one (they're slow, they can't go very far, they're small, etc). They're also shrewdly pushing its after-tax-credit price rather than its before-tax-credit price like many others are doing.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:2, Interesting)
Another interesting point: My current vehicle can travel almost double that distance on a tank of gasoline, and takes seconds to refill. This is important because it's almost 500 miles to the next city from where I live -- I can travel to the next city with one tank of gas, but I'd need to refill the battery 3 times to comfortably make it by electric car, since I'm not going to let my batteries run to 0%.
Will the 8 hour drive to the next town become a multiple day journey? Will I need to start planning to visit hotels where now I can just ignore the towns? Will we see a re-emergence of small refueling towns, as we saw in the age of coal-based rail, thanks to the significantly reduced range of our vehicles?
Re:Europe (Score:3, Interesting)
Adding in four oil changes a year at $40/each and that's $160/yr or $1600 lifetime. No smog checks is another $60 every two years or $300. Not to mention ZERO time spent filling up or waiting for oil changes/smogs. So savings of $16,270 takes $49,000 down to $32,730. My last car was purchased in 2003 so I can buy a used 2011 in 2013 (I always buy slightly used anyway) for probably $40K or so max. No time at filling stations or smog checks is worth another $3K to me as well. I'm not going to even mention stuff like no fuel filter, fuel injector cleaning, all that crap. We'll assume some irritating yearly maintenance is required for this as well.
I am purely pragmatic when it comes to car costs and going green, but if this thing turns out to be reliable -- which wouldn't surprise me given they have experience and pure electric is far simpler than internal combustion -- I'll be on this like white on rice.
Re:Anyone know the economics on these? (Score:5, Interesting)
I used an electric bike a couple years ago that wasn't high tech in any sense of the word. The batteries were basically UPS batteries in expensive casings. Besides that, the electric parts were basically grafted onto a conventional bike chassis. It reached residental street speeds and did so for distances far longer than I could pedal. The bike cost about $500 CDN.
I think we're trying to solve the wrong problem. We're trying to reinvent the car as a car, when we need to re-invent our concept of a vehicle altogether.
I imagine a good electric vehicle being had for less than 2000 dollars, and being a 3-wheel, 2 seater with a lightweight basket capable of carrying a couple bags of groceries. It would have to be weather-proof, but that could (and should) be accomplished using something cheap and effective like tarp and plexi-glass and aluminium. It'd have a small enough footprint to use bike paths and to store like a bicycle, a long enough distance to use as a commuter(at least 100km on a charge), high enough speeds to use residental streets, and low enough cost that people like me don't need to point out it's uneconomical to own. Such a vehicle would require a fraction of the energy to move, it would require a fraction of the materials to build, and overall could actually be a practical solution that doesn't need a technological deus ex machina to happen.
The tesla motors paradigm is still too inside the box. They're trying to make an electric car in a world where electric cars aren't useful. We need to think outside the box, to what we actually want, so we can escape the limitations of the automobile.
Re:Reality check can't be cashed (Score:3, Interesting)
That's a good thought. though it adds another layer to the efficiency problem, it makes up for it by off-peak loads. all those hydro electric damns and nuc power plants can smooth out their loads.
Even better if every onehad one, you even power your house off it when your car did not need it, and pay night rates for daytime electricity.
Calculations?? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you plan on driving your truck for 300k miles@ 20 MPG, then that's 15,000 gallons of fuel - which is pretty good for a "truck". You are really paying less than $2 per gallon? Gas seems to average around $2.75 and to be fair, it will probably only increase in price. So I'll call it an even $3/gallon, which will make fuel coasts around $45,000 for 300K if you were to buy your truck now. Unless your truck is a diesel, then some major engine repair/ maintenance costs would be probably fair to also add in, as well as transmission repairs/replacements.
Powerline costs on an electric car will be changing the battery at 100,000 miles and will cost $12,000 , so 300k miles would have operating costs around $24,000 +$3,000(electricity). Not too bad. The electric motor/transmission should not need ANY repairs during that time. I imagine significant R&D and economy of scale will tend to drive this price down significantly by then.
Re:Model S not T (Score:3, Interesting)
For some more perspective, I usually travel around 700km/week, which was costing around $120 in fuel. In the newer car the cost is around $60/week. Or $520/month vs $260/month.
I live 10km from the office, but we have clients that are considerably further.
To say "their decision to live hundreds of kilometers from where they work" is a bit of an oversimplification too. Some people start out living close to work but then work moves, or they lose their job and just cannot afford to move closer to their new workplace, or your workplace just happens to be a long way away from your spouses and so a long commute for one or the other is the only alternative.
It would be nice if people could stop pointing fingers and judging without having at least some understanding of the issues involved.
Re:Model S not T (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you should watch "Who Killed The Electric Car?"
There was certainly a car that "panned out" - the General Motors EV1 [wikipedia.org].
GM didn't even sell the car. They had a lease-only program throughout which you could never actually buy the car. They put marginal marketing into it and despite a practical cult-like following of its users who loved the car (i.e. the Apple effect), they forced all of them to be returned. They then crushed every single car save for a few saved for educational purposes (universities, museums). The educational vehicles were given under a clause that they could never be in working order.
Why would GM do any of this if they actually wanted them to get on the road? They wouldn't do it because they didn't want these cars on the road.
In the early 90s, California raised a stink about pollution. They wrote up a law that basically said cars in California have to conform to way tighter pollution restrictions. The federal government eventually overruled them.
The EV-1 was a well-designed model that was eaten up by early adopters but never got very far because a few powerful groups (oil companies, auto companies, and the federal government) colluded to do everything they could to make it a failure. It was unethical and criminally negligent.
On the plus side, GM is completely fucked. Had they not sabotaged the EV-1, they would be one of the leading car companies in the world.
Re:Model S not T (Score:3, Interesting)
A small cult of enthusiasts doesn't support a full-scale manufacturing run. And please quit the conspiracy theories about how 'big oil' or whoever killed the electric car. If they were viable, Japan and Europe would be firing them out no matter what the US government did.
Re:Insane price (Score:1, Interesting)
Don't forget $500 billion on "oil" war. These green hippies won't be needing US government to ensure so dramatically the oil availability so that others can get their $3 per gallon gas. Other issue is that CO2 reduction needs to happen someday, giving tax credit now is a good start and saves a lot of money later on. I think the $7500 tax credit is justified and shows how much less collective pressure to secure increasing amounts of oil these electric (or less consuming) cars cause.
Re:Quick battery change stations (Score:3, Interesting)