schliz writes "Researchers developing the 'Interplanetary Internet' have launched its first permanent node in space via a payload aboard the International Space Station. The network is based on a new communications protocol called Delay/Disruption Tolerant Networking (DTN). It will be tested heavily this month, and could give astronauts direct Internet access within a year. The Interplanetary Internet is the brainchild of Vint Cerf ('father of the Internet'), among others. Last year, NASA tested the technology on the Deep Impact spacecraft."Update: 07/13 20:01 GMT by KD: If by "permanent" we mean seven years.
Permanent is relative. It may be permanent compared to the time ISS will stay in space from the moment they install the node. In the end, of course, nothing is completely permanent compared to the time left to the universe - unless it disappears suddenly.
I read somewhere NASA plans to de-orbit the ISS in 2016 due to budgetary concerns... You probably read it here on slashdot. In my FF tab showing the/. main page, it's three stories higher on the screen. TFA for that one references a couple of news publications' stories on the topic.
(Yeah, I read that one earlier than this one, too. They both appeared on my screen at the same time. I guess I was busy and didn't refresh/. for over two hours.;-)
I read somewhere NASA plans to de-orbit the ISS in 2016 due to budgetary concerns...
You probably read it here on slashdot. In my FF tab showing the/. main page, it's three stories higher on the screen.
Er, whoosh? Also - jo42, jc42 - is this some new meme?
Until Linux and the *BSDs have DTN as standard, you're not likely to see anything serious using it. DTN could be seriously useful in a lot of circumstances, but look at the hassle getting multicasting or IPv6 - and these are protocols that have long been supported both in ISPs routers and the OS' in people's homes.
He's not talking about P2P over Tor, he's talking about large files. Since the web is designed to handle links without caring about their size, Tor's solution is flawed if it can't handle them. When's the last time you saw a link with a size attribute, or a "too big for anonymous networks" flag along with the href?
There are plenty of large files on the net that have NOTHING to do with P2P, and look entirely like any other file or link until you click on them (and conceptually ARE entirely like any other link, regardless of the larger size). PDFs, for instance, can be any size, and even the same content in PDFs can vary hugely in filesize just depending on which PDF generator is used. High-res astronomy photos that enthusiasts might need or care to share with friends, etc. Tor could legitimately be used for downloa
If experience on Slashdot has taught me anything, having the Internet on ISS is a bad idea. The astronauts will spend half the time surfing the Internet instead of running 'scientific experiments'.
.. or downloading the latest Michael Jackson DVDs for a hands on tutorial of the 'Moonwalk'.
Ok, dorky question, but what protocols is it using? I mean, how does it make up for the sometimes massive EMD that will be in the way occasionally? A thunderstorm? TCP doesn't seem like it would be enough to handle the interference. Is it a microwave transmission? Are they using blinky lights? Are they using ethernet or some WAN technology? Do they use IPv6?
by Anonymous Coward
on Monday July 13, @08:46AM (#28675441)
it uses, of course, DTN, as the protocol. DTN sits in between IP and the other layers (UDP,TCP).. Think of it is as intelligent "store and forward" routing for long latency or sporadic links. It has a lot of flavors, but ultimately, you transfer a bundle of data to another node (perhaps on a predetermined schedule), when the other node agrees it's got it, "custody" of the bundle transfers.
The physical layer is standard microwave for space (S and K band for station, X band and Ka band for deep space links of the future). It can also be carried over wired media (or heck, avian carriers as well)
You rock anon:) Thanks! I found the other article had some info but it didn't seem to explain much (kept swapping around terms so I didn't know how correct it was, or if it was all still theoretical at time of publishing) and it didn't really indicate that DTN works in between layers 3 and 4. Sounds like it'll be some cool technology.
Sorry, I don't see how this technology and "using the Internet" are at all related.
It's a store-and-forward technology designed to allow interruptions of seconds, days, weeks, months, etc. in communication. How does that relate to the modern Internet or being able to "post on Twitter"? What you're saying is that I can request a webpage and (via suitable protocol-translation at some gateway presumably back on Earth) eventually my request will be sent - TCP handshaking is out of the window, timeouts will de
I liked the idea, and went on to read more about the protocol. I can definitely see some uses for this on earth.
One example would be on cruising sailboats that only have occasional access to inexpensive wifi hotspots, and the rest of the time have to use slow SSB links. Another example might be for use in automotive networking, where a car sometimes has access to a real network, sometimes a cellular, and sometimes just some low-fi sattelite.
But really, this all sounds eerily familiar. Could if be FidoNet and
Given that DTN sits between two layers already in the kernel, it'd be stupid to have DTN in userspace. (Stupid and potentially dangerous, as you then have a userspace app injecting data into a fairly low level part of the kernel in a way that would have to bypass a lot of safeguards.)
As for stuff that's in the kernel that shouldn't be - want to give some examples? I can think of a few things that are probably not great, but I can't think of anything that absolutely shouldn't be there.
It sits between the Ethernet and TCP/UDP layers. Where the hell do you think it's going to sit? On top of the monitor? The only way you could add DTN except in the kernel is via netfilter (which would make this not only Linux-specific but also firewall technology specific, as netfilter is being replaced).
Adding DTN in userspace via netfilter would (a) add some very stupid and unnecessary context switches, and (b) totally subvert the purpose for which netfilter is designed, not for technical reasons but poli
I thought the "big deal" with NASA's new protocol was that it could handle the overly-long round trip times (stupid speed of light and vast interplanetary distances!) that would make TCP unusable. I suppose that's what the store-and-forward process is suppose to get around (among other things), but the article doesn't make that particularly clear.
A single DTN node is not terribly useful, where you see advantages is when you have multiple lossy or intermittent links along the path. In this case, TCP will perform very poorly as it can only even try to push data on the cases where all of the links are up and will suffer a lot from TCP's slow start.
Think of it like a game of Frogger: TCP only knows how to play by waiting until all of the cars and logs are line up just right so it can jump all of the way across at once. DTN plays like a human player
This makes it great for wireless networks in which routes are highly variable or not otherwise knowable in advance. Routing protocols [psu.edu] already exist for such indeterminate networks [psu.edu], but if the protocol you're transmitting has too short a timeout, it's useless. You'd lose far too many packets and never get any work done.
So, for such networks, you'd need DTN. DTN would also be useful when using Mobile IP, where the two networks you're crossing between have a gap between them, so there isn't 100% coverage. Then
1) Give astronaut CD of latest pop music craze. 2) Have astronaut rip CD to MP3. 3) Create and host torrent of album from ISS. 4) Make RIAA go to orbit to subpoena astronaut. 5) ??? 6) Profit!
This might actually help us get a real commercial space program going.
It will be tested heavily this month... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:It will be tested heavily this month... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Well at least the DMCA should not apply in Space, should it?
Re: (Score:2)
The Berne convention might :)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No, they're going to let slashdotters whine about it, and see if it cracks.
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lol (Score:5, Funny)
i am in ur space station, trollin' ur boards!
"Permanent"??? (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want them to be, get off your butts and tell that to the Whitehouse and your Congresscritters. Because they obviously don't know.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I read somewhere NASA plans to de-orbit the ISS in 2016 due to budgetary concerns...
Re: (Score:2)
I read somewhere NASA plans to de-orbit the ISS in 2016 due to budgetary concerns... /. main page, it's three stories higher on the screen. TFA for that one references a couple of news publications' stories on the topic.
You probably read it here on slashdot. In my FF tab showing the
(Yeah, I read that one earlier than this one, too. They both appeared on my screen at the same time. I guess I was busy and didn't refresh /. for over two hours. ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
I read somewhere NASA plans to de-orbit the ISS in 2016 due to budgetary concerns... /. main page, it's three stories higher on the screen.
You probably read it here on slashdot. In my FF tab showing the
Er, whoosh? Also - jo42, jc42 - is this some new meme?
Re: (Score:2)
STOP WASTING OUR MONEY
I think that's the whole point of bringing it down.
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It makes me think of Gremlins, in suits.
It is only a matter of time... (Score:3, Funny)
Before we'll have our first bittorrent tracker on mars.
Delay/Disruption Tolerant Networking? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmmmmm. Will we get an earthly version of DTN that ensures I can successfully download large files over TOR? Now, *that* would be useful.
Re: (Score:2)
Until Linux and the *BSDs have DTN as standard, you're not likely to see anything serious using it. DTN could be seriously useful in a lot of circumstances, but look at the hassle getting multicasting or IPv6 - and these are protocols that have long been supported both in ISPs routers and the OS' in people's homes.
Re: (Score:2)
He's not talking about P2P over Tor, he's talking about large files. Since the web is designed to handle links without caring about their size, Tor's solution is flawed if it can't handle them. When's the last time you saw a link with a size attribute, or a "too big for anonymous networks" flag along with the href?
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No, TOR sucks because of moron ISPs capping upload bandwidth. Were that fixed TOR would run very reliably.
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There are plenty of large files on the net that have NOTHING to do with P2P, and look entirely like any other file or link until you click on them (and conceptually ARE entirely like any other link, regardless of the larger size). PDFs, for instance, can be any size, and even the same content in PDFs can vary hugely in filesize just depending on which PDF generator is used. High-res astronomy photos that enthusiasts might need or care to share with friends, etc. Tor could legitimately be used for downloa
Define "permanent" (Score:5, Informative)
Don't slashdot that server.... (Score:3, Funny)
Can't wait... (Score:2, Redundant)
... to FTP to Mars.
As Jerry Seinfeld would say (Score:3, Funny)
Do we really need the Internet on the ISS? (Score:2, Insightful)
Last Post (Score:4, Funny)
What protocols is it using? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What protocols is it using? (Score:5, Informative)
it uses, of course, DTN, as the protocol. DTN sits in between IP and the other layers (UDP,TCP).. Think of it is as intelligent "store and forward" routing for long latency or sporadic links. It has a lot of flavors, but ultimately, you transfer a bundle of data to another node (perhaps on a predetermined schedule), when the other node agrees it's got it, "custody" of the bundle transfers.
The physical layer is standard microwave for space (S and K band for station, X band and Ka band for deep space links of the future). It can also be carried over wired media (or heck, avian carriers as well)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re:What protocols is it using? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
What? (Score:2, Insightful)
Sorry, I don't see how this technology and "using the Internet" are at all related.
It's a store-and-forward technology designed to allow interruptions of seconds, days, weeks, months, etc. in communication. How does that relate to the modern Internet or being able to "post on Twitter"? What you're saying is that I can request a webpage and (via suitable protocol-translation at some gateway presumably back on Earth) eventually my request will be sent - TCP handshaking is out of the window, timeouts will de
Re: (Score:2)
> What this actually *might* be is a very, very delay-tolerant email setup... we have one
> of those... it's called "retry and exponential backoff".
It's called UUCP.
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Sounds like FIDO.NET for outer space.
Think of it... (Score:2)
...like FTP-by-email, but for any Internet protocol, not just FTP.
Boon to astronauts (Score:2)
Cool protocol.. but sounds a bit familiar... (Score:2)
I liked the idea, and went on to read more about the protocol.
I can definitely see some uses for this on earth.
One example would be on cruising sailboats that only have occasional access to inexpensive wifi hotspots, and the rest of the time have to use slow SSB links. Another
example might be for use in automotive networking, where a car sometimes has access to a real network, sometimes a cellular, and sometimes just some low-fi sattelite.
But really, this all sounds eerily familiar. Could if be FidoNet and
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> I still want to see it implemented in the next Linux kernel though.
This does not belong in the kernel.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This does not belong in the kernel.
Have you looked at the .config file lately? THERE is A LOT that shouldn't be in the kernel..
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Given that DTN sits between two layers already in the kernel, it'd be stupid to have DTN in userspace. (Stupid and potentially dangerous, as you then have a userspace app injecting data into a fairly low level part of the kernel in a way that would have to bypass a lot of safeguards.)
As for stuff that's in the kernel that shouldn't be - want to give some examples? I can think of a few things that are probably not great, but I can't think of anything that absolutely shouldn't be there.
Say what?! (Score:2)
It sits between the Ethernet and TCP/UDP layers. Where the hell do you think it's going to sit? On top of the monitor? The only way you could add DTN except in the kernel is via netfilter (which would make this not only Linux-specific but also firewall technology specific, as netfilter is being replaced).
Adding DTN in userspace via netfilter would (a) add some very stupid and unnecessary context switches, and (b) totally subvert the purpose for which netfilter is designed, not for technical reasons but poli
I thought... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Think of it like a game of Frogger: TCP only knows how to play by waiting until all of the cars and logs are line up just right so it can jump all of the way across at once. DTN plays like a human player
Re: (Score:2)
This makes it great for wireless networks in which routes are highly variable or not otherwise knowable in advance. Routing protocols [psu.edu] already exist for such indeterminate networks [psu.edu], but if the protocol you're transmitting has too short a timeout, it's useless. You'd lose far too many packets and never get any work done.
So, for such networks, you'd need DTN. DTN would also be useful when using Mobile IP, where the two networks you're crossing between have a gap between them, so there isn't 100% coverage. Then
Not That Permanent (Score:2)
How is this "Interplanetary"? (Score:2)
Interplanetary is defined as, "existing or occurring between planets" [answers.com] or "being or occurring between the planets or between a planet and the sun." [reference.com]
How is is a setup between a space station and a planet interplanetary?
Vint (Score:2)
If Vint Cerf is the 'father of the Internet', I wonder who the mother is ...
interesting browsing experience (Score:2)
Error: Connection timed out.
20 minutes later...
TCP packet from blah.com.mars just arrived.
WoW (Score:2)
RIAA in SPAAAACE (Score:2)
1) Give astronaut CD of latest pop music craze.
2) Have astronaut rip CD to MP3.
3) Create and host torrent of album from ISS.
4) Make RIAA go to orbit to subpoena astronaut.
5) ???
6) Profit!
This might actually help us get a real commercial space program going.
Re: (Score:2)
Have you seen Ron Jeremy? Pretty aint exactly a word I've heard used to describe him.