Nissan Unveils All-Electric LEAF 586
MojoRilla writes "In Japan, Nissan unveiled their all-electric LEAF (press release, and Flash site). Slated to launch in late 2010 in Japan, the US, and Europe, this car will have a 100-mile range, seats 5, has an advanced computer system with remote control by IPhone, and promises to be competitively priced. While this car's range won't work for everyone, it could be a game changer as a commuter car." Recharge time is 8 hours with a 200-volt power source, and "just under 30 minutes with a quick charger" (no further details given) to charge to 80% of capacity.
Re:Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's remember a few things for this discussion: (Score:5, Interesting)
1) There is already enough juice in the grid at night to power 80% of the 220 million cars without any further need for more power plants. (According to the DoE) [autobloggreen.com].
2) The average commute for people is far less than 100 miles, which means the only thing you could be missing out on is a truck for hauling or a car for road trip vacations.
Now, the price hasn't been released. If it's under 30K, it's a winner. As the summary said, there's no details on the charge, but as long as I can plug it in at night and it's charged in the morning, it will not only save me gas, but I don't have to bother with filling up.
sign me up! (Score:5, Interesting)
If this car is less than $22k, I will buy one day-of-release. TFPR does not provide an MSRP, but it does say it will be low-priced. Four doors, and your gas bill gets moved over to your house electric bill. I never drive more than 100 miles in a day, so it would be perfect for getting me around town on all my stop-start errands.
Moving the cost of driving from a fuel purchase tracked with credit card might make it more difficult for people to get reimbursed by their company for business driving. I wonder how that's going to get sorted. Also, in a roommate situation, it becomes a little unfair to evenly split the electric bill if only one tennant is charging a car.
Looks cool.
Seth
Laminated Lithium-ion Batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
9.2 kWh pack recharges in 15 minutes time. This truly could be a game changer in EV-battery technology.
Full detail on the battery tech:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html [greencarcongress.com]
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:3, Interesting)
You might want to double-check those figures before accepting them as gospel. They're not assuming charging at night; they're assuming that any and all excess non-peaking capacity in the electrical grid is used to charge the cars. This is wildly unrealistic and provides only a best-case figure. Basically they're saying that if you ran every coal plant in the country balls-out at all times, you could provide power to 180 million cars... average. In the summer and winter less, in the fall and spring more.
From the report:
"The valley-filling methodology is predicated on the notion that the entire PHEV load is managed to fit perfectly into the valley without setting new peaks."
on the road charging? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was wondering if I could do the same thing I have for camping trips. I have a front and rear receiver hitch, and a 220V generator on a mount that slides into the receiver hitch. It's 5 hp, and runs a RV air conditioner for 5 hours on under 5 gallons, I am sure you could do a better generator mount than this guy [joe-ks.com] if we get a hitch mount, and just plug the car charger into it for road trips, ditch the weight for in town. Hopefully the chargers aren't locked out while moving. Not only does the GEN not have to meet as many emissions standards ( = cheaper) but has other uses also.
Universal battery form factor is critical. (Score:2, Interesting)
Just interested in the batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
I wish I can get a hold of the batteries. I am sure they are a better replacement to the Trojan batteries I am using for my solar system.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:2, Interesting)
Did you know there are only 2 models of cargo vans in the U.S.? Ford makes the E150/250/350, and Chevy+GMC make the 1500/2500/3500. They get about 12 MPG, and you can't get diesel on anything less than a 350/3500. Thing is, all the car magazines rave about how "modern" these vehicles are.
Then there is the Dodge, aka Mercedes Benz "Sprinter" which is diesel and gets 29 MPG. It also costs $40,000.
>replacing a 12 mpg vehicle with a 15 mpg vehicle saves you as much as replacing a 30 MPG vehicle with a 60 MPG vehicle.
OK let's check this:
12mpg over 60 mi = 5 gallons
15mpg over 60 mi = 4 gallons
30 mpg over 60 mi = 2 gallons
60 mpg over 60 mi = 1 gallon
WOW you are right. In both cases, the savings is 1gallon.
lithium-ion tech (Score:3, Interesting)
Lithium-ion batteries are not ready for this task. They are not easy to make. That is why they cost a fortune. I don't think I am alone, but I have never had a Li-ion laptop battery make it more than 1 year in a laptop. After about 1 year the run time on the battery goes from 2 hours ( new ) down to 30-45 minutes. Plus, I don't run on battery power that often. Less than 2 hours a week. This tech is not ready to be put in mass produced cars. I know all the new claims about longevity. I bet the those who believe those claims also believe the claims Lenovo made about the battery in my current laptop. Battery life claims are notoriously unreliable.
One issue is that Li-ion batteries are very sensitive to heat. Leave them out in the sun, and their capacity will drop like a rock - even if you do not use them. This is going to be a huge problem anywhere where it is sunny through much of the year. Heat kills a Li-ion battery's longevity. Parking a car under the LA sun is a perfect way to quickly kill an electric car.
I don't know how much the Nissan battery pack will cost, but a Tesla battery pack runs about $30,000. If you replace it every 2 years, the cost quickly gets out of hand. My guess is that Nissan will not make an binding promises about warranting the battery pack. If it fails ( drops to less than 50% initial capacity ) in less than 3 years, you will be SOL.
I did see an article in the WSJ ( Wall Street Journal ) about an electric lawn mover about 2 months ago. The company clearly stated that the $800 battery pack would have to be replaced approximately every 2 years. Sadly, I think this is the brutal reality when it comes to battery powered vehicles. Massive piles of batteries that will require disposal, and the expense of purchasing new while disposing on the old.
I think a better solution is a supercharged engine that is 1.5 liters or less. Add to that capacitors and electric motors for acceleration. Capacitors are light, so they don't weigh down a car like batteries do. When and only when accelerating, the capacitors power the electric motors to give acceptable acceleration. When cruising, a 1.5 liter supercharge engine should be able to carry most light cars along at 100 mph or less no problem. Massive power is only needed for high speeds ( 100+ mph ) and rapid acceleration. When cruising at constant speed, it does not matter if you have 600 hp or 90 hp. During cruising and braking, the capacitors can be recharged. The capacitors only need enough power for short bursts. They discharge quickly, but also recharge quickly. Start and stop traffic might wear down the power in the capacitors fast than the system can recharge. However, you can accelerate on the engine alone in start and stop traffic. You generally don't need rapid acceleration in start and stop traffic.
Keep in mind coal power production is not exactly what one would call efficient ( less than 50% ). Nor is power transmission ( 10% or more loss ). Nor is turning electricity back into forward momentum. Also, high efficiency batteries are going to require a lot of rare earth metals. Unfortunately, world supply is limited.
Got one (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, I use another car for driving vacations, but these battery electric cars are perfect for some of us.
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm starting a company to do just that -- Celadon Applications, LLC. We already have a fully functional prototype and are in the middle of raising money to add some more features and polish to make it into a commercial product (the prototype is a bit cluttered and could use to be more user-friendly). The prototype [rechargeamerica.net] makes use of weather forecasts, 10-meter altitude data with a vertical resolution of 4 inches, and so forth, along with driver behavior modeling and physics calculations every several meters to determine how much charge you'll have at each point along the trip. The final version will have a very powerful crowd-sourced, trust network-validated charger database overlay on the map as well (it's coded, but is currently being debugged). So you find your route won't make it to your destination, no problem -- you drag it over to a charging station. And you can click on the station, get pictures, reviews, find what there is to do in the area, etc. It'll initially be populated with not just "known" recharging stations, but also "likely" recharging places, such as RV parks and so forth -- as well as phone numbers and email addresses to contact their owners. And you can add your own charging stations, even just a high-power outlet in your garage -- and list a fee for it if you want.
We've done some accuracy validation on the simulator part with a Tesla Roadster. Of 7-ish legs that we tested, all but one of them were in the 2-4% error range. The last one was on surface streets and was about 12% error because Google was way off on how much traffic there was going to be (they said 40 minutes, it actually took closer to 25); when we hard-coded it to get the amount of traffic right, it fell back into the normal error range. To counter that issue, we're going to add real-time traffic forecasts in wherever available. Oh, and this is so far without any of Tesla's help. If we can get more detailed hardware specs, we can do even better.
The market forecasts range wildly, but they range from a million or two EVs up to 32.7 million shipped by 2015 (Wintergreen Research). Either way, it's a massive market, and even with just a couple percent penetration, there's huge profit potential and the potential to create a lot of jobs. And it should help open up the EV market to a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise consider them. And most of our competition is way behind -- the standard approach, you'll find, is just to draw a circle around the car and say this is how far you can drive (as though you can go just as far over the top of Mount Whitney as you can over flat land on good roads).
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Interesting)
Been there, done that. Mid-summer Los Angeles traffic near the 405/101 interchange with two nearby accidents a few years ago (one of the events that scarred me enough to stay out of LA whenever possible). Temps were right around the 100-degree mark, and all of those exhaust vapors made breathing even more difficult. The engine was overheating, so I had to kill the A/C to reduce the load, and rolled down all of the windows. It wasn't a pleasant scenario, but even though there was little wind, it was not the deadly oven that you're describing.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Interesting)
And just where do you think the power comes from when you plug into the wall?
Well, I am pretty sure it at least comes from United States.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're that paranoid though. Crack your windows. Car windows generally open at the top first and heat likes to escape through the top of the cabin.
Additionally. You live in Seattle. This year has been a freak year for temperatures, I'll give you that, but most of the time the outside temperature is pretty comfortable. If it's 70 outside and you roll the windows down, it might make it up to a blistering 71 in your car. If it's raining (BTW I've spent about a decade in the PacNW, I know you have rain) then roll up the windows, your car isn't going to heat up if there's no sunlight and the electric heat isn't going to have to work nearly as hard as an A/C compressor would be for someone stuck in a traffic jam in Arizona since once the cabin is up to temp, your body heat helps solve the problem rather than exacerbating it. (plus you can wear a jacket over a pullover, over a sweater whereas the person in Arizona can only get so naked)
Now if that's not enough thought in my rebuttal, maybe I can add some insight as well.
Dude, we get it, you moved to Seattle because you were accepted to a university or received a good job offer. You don't want to identify yourself with the other "hippies" living there so you drive either a 4x4 Chevy pickup with oversized offroad mud tires and a lifted suspension or a 5.0 Mustang. You live 40 miles from school/work because you went there for an education/job in the Seattle Metro area and subsequently found an apartment in the Seattle Metro area; you didn't really take the time to realize that where you chose to live and where you have to commute to were on nearly opposite ends of a 50 mile diameter area.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:1, Interesting)
An auto manufacturer from Japan just did what American companies said was impossible, and has built a 5 seater EV with a 100 mile range with today's technology
Not [wikipedia.org] impressed [wikipedia.org].
"Today's technology" has been capable of it for the past 15 years, even "American companies" (what's with all the America hate on here anyway?).
Wake me when the Model-S breaks $30K.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:3, Interesting)
Where did I say anything about carjackers?
Rolling down the windows doesn't really help unless there's a breeze. It can make the difference between heat stroke or not in hot weather, but it won't keep you cool. It's not a replacement (unless you're moving and thus generating your own breeze, but that isn't the situation we're discussing).
You're reading way too much into the Seattle thing- electric cars aren't being marketed for Seattle only. This is a problem with the car generally- in California, the Midwest, the South, the east coast, etc. You're right, Seattle can probably get away with this 51 weeks of the year. Chicago can't. Phoenix can't. LA can't. Making a car that works in one small portion of the country won't solve any problems.
As for your guesses on me- nope on most of them. I did move here for a job. I don't care about hippies- I'm a socialist on everything but environmental issues. I don't have a 4x4, and couldn't drive a manual anyway. I do have a mustang because I love convertibles, but its 8 years old with 20K miles on it so I probably have less environmental impact than you. Also it has the smaller less gas guzzling v4 engine because it was cheaper and lower insurance. I used to live 3 miles from work for 4 years, moved out here and walked to work for 2 years. In the last year I've lived 20 miles from work because I got a new job and didn't want to sell my place for a loss plus I prefer Seattle to Bellevue. I take the bus those 20 miles over 80% of the time because I don't like driving in traffic.
Now its my turn. You have an inferiority complex. When someone pokes holes in ideas you like you attack, rather than trying to solve the problem. Most likely you don't have the intelligence required to do so anyway. You assume everyone should live the way you want them to, and expect them to realign their lives to fit in with your ideas. When they don't, you become grumpy and start making unfounded assumptions about them. I'm pretty sure it all is due to the fact you have a very tiny penis.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:3, Interesting)
Turn off the AC? Only if you want to die.
What's worse is places like this are a double whammy for electric cars based on batteries. We have to replace our lead-acid battery every two years because the heat eats it. Li batteries are almost as sensitive (if not more so) so this 'battery packs last 5-10 years is more like 2-3 here.
One more problem - the Phoenix Valley is nearly 75 miles across.
Before Phoenix can embrace the electric car we need 300+ mile ranges (minimum 200 with AC going the whole time) a guarantee that will replace the pack every 2 years for nearly free and the charging infrastructure.
The only good news on that last one is solar power is plentiful here and everyone wants covered parking. All it takes is the price point to finally come down enough on solar panels and every parking lot in the state will go solar roofed.
100-mile range is misleading (Score:3, Interesting)
Nissan is knowingly setting itself up to over-promise and under-deliver by quoting the EPA range of 100 miles, because the EPA test is well known to be extremely optimistic for EVs. AC Propulsion's eBox has an EPA range of ~170 miles, but a realistic range of 130. Tesla's Roadster has an EPA range of ~220 miles, but a realistic range of 175.
Nissan's car will probably have a realistic range of 70-80 miles. The good news is that this is more than enough for many, many households. The bad news is that many households don't realize it, because "range anxiety" is a very real (psychological) phenomenon, even though actual range limits are not.
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:3, Interesting)
Non-crowd-sourced chargers are no bette; check out EVChargerMaps some time. But the advantage of crowd sourcing with a trust network is you can get an idea of how much you can trust it. And with contact information for the owner, you can call up in advance. Our system is also designed to send followup emails every three months to station owners asking them to verify that their charger is still working and to follow a link to confirm it.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:3, Interesting)