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Comments: 586 +- Technology: Nissan Unveils All-Electric LEAF on Sunday August 02 2009, @09:51PM
Posted
by
kdawson
on Sunday August 02 2009, @09:51PM
from the made-right-here-in-the-U-S-of-A dept.
from the made-right-here-in-the-U-S-of-A dept.
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topictransportation.gif); width:75px; height:69px;
transportation
MojoRilla writes "In Japan, Nissan unveiled their all-electric LEAF (press release, and Flash site). Slated to launch in late 2010 in Japan, the US, and Europe, this car will have a 100-mile range, seats 5, has an advanced computer system with remote control by IPhone, and promises to be competitively priced. While this car's range won't work for everyone, it could be a game changer as a commuter car." Recharge time is 8 hours with a 200-volt power source, and "just under 30 minutes with a quick charger" (no further details given) to charge to 80% of capacity.
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Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:4, Informative)
This just in (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Before anyone panics (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Informative)
"You aren't going fucking anywhere, dude"
Actually, I think that an application that monitors your car's battery/fuel/power source and is linked to a GPS with a trip planner saying "Hey, you won't get there with your current battery/fuel/etc level, you need to get more juice" would be fricken useful.
I recently did a trip through Wales with mates in a car with a nice GPS, but when you plan a trip that's longer than your car's fuel tank, having it add a "refuel your car here, take this exit off the freeway" sort of show would be REALLY handy.
Parent
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm starting a company to do just that -- Celadon Applications, LLC. We already have a fully functional prototype and are in the middle of raising money to add some more features and polish to make it into a commercial product (the prototype is a bit cluttered and could use to be more user-friendly). The prototype [rechargeamerica.net] makes use of weather forecasts, 10-meter altitude data with a vertical resolution of 4 inches, and so forth, along with driver behavior modeling and physics calculations every several meters to determine how much charge you'll have at each point along the trip. The final version will have a very powerful crowd-sourced, trust network-validated charger database overlay on the map as well (it's coded, but is currently being debugged). So you find your route won't make it to your destination, no problem -- you drag it over to a charging station. And you can click on the station, get pictures, reviews, find what there is to do in the area, etc. It'll initially be populated with not just "known" recharging stations, but also "likely" recharging places, such as RV parks and so forth -- as well as phone numbers and email addresses to contact their owners. And you can add your own charging stations, even just a high-power outlet in your garage -- and list a fee for it if you want.
We've done some accuracy validation on the simulator part with a Tesla Roadster. Of 7-ish legs that we tested, all but one of them were in the 2-4% error range. The last one was on surface streets and was about 12% error because Google was way off on how much traffic there was going to be (they said 40 minutes, it actually took closer to 25); when we hard-coded it to get the amount of traffic right, it fell back into the normal error range. To counter that issue, we're going to add real-time traffic forecasts in wherever available. Oh, and this is so far without any of Tesla's help. If we can get more detailed hardware specs, we can do even better.
The market forecasts range wildly, but they range from a million or two EVs up to 32.7 million shipped by 2015 (Wintergreen Research). Either way, it's a massive market, and even with just a couple percent penetration, there's huge profit potential and the potential to create a lot of jobs. And it should help open up the EV market to a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise consider them. And most of our competition is way behind -- the standard approach, you'll find, is just to draw a circle around the car and say this is how far you can drive (as though you can go just as far over the top of Mount Whitney as you can over flat land on good roads).
Parent
Re:Before anyone panics (Score:5, Funny)
The prototype makes use of weather forecasts, 10-meter altitude data with a vertical resolution of 4 inches
You are so doomed [wikipedia.org]...
Parent
100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Insightful)
In a slowly-moving traffic, a running A/C will really eat into battery life... Somebody working, say, 40 miles from home — not that unusual — will need the charge to last 80 miles plus whatever extra for the air conditioning... Depending on how hot it is, they may or may not be able to pick kids from school on the way home...
Unless it is really cheap, I don't see, why many people would rush to buy it. "Normal" cars last about 300 miles and can be "recharged" (to 100%) in 3 minutes, instead of 80% in 30...
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:5, Insightful)
The millions of people who have short commutes who live in urban areas would do just fine with a car like this and many people like the idea of not just driving without relying on oil, but also not contributing to their city's level of smog.
I just wish I knew how much this thing costs.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not really. I live in an urban area (Seattle). I even take public transit most days. I wouldn't even consider switching my gas car for a car like this.
1)I don't have an outlet in my parking space. Not even the home one, much less at lots near work. Most people in dense urban areas don't.
1a)I don't always park at home even over night. Sometimes I'm at a girlfriend's, sometimes I'm at a hotel in another city. Neither would have an outlet even if I had one in #1.
2)When there's an accident on a bridge, I
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Insightful)
>> 1)I don't have an outlet in my parking space. Not even the home one, much less at lots near work. Most people in dense urban areas don't.
You don't think that would change? BC Transit just added outlets for charging electric bikes at a lot of their light rail stations. If people started driving electric cars then charging stations would materialize (progressive companies would install them at work for example).
>> 1a)I don't always park at home even over night. Sometimes I'm at a girlfriend's, sometimes I'm at a hotel in another city. Neither would have an outlet even if I had one in #1.
Your girlfriend is Amish? Hotels are very likely to start offering a charging service if electric cars were available.
>> 2)When there's an accident on a bridge, I can take 2 hours to drive home. I wouldn't trust it to keep a charge for that long idling.
Umm... Idling? Are you kidding? What exactly do you think will idle on an electric car? Running AC full blast might be a problem (could be alleviated with solar cells, like the prius already has), but the other power drains (minimal lighting, radio) won't drain the batteries significantly.
>> 3)I want the option of being able to drive farther. I want to be able to drive an hour or two out of the city on a weekend, or take a road trip. This car doesn't have that. So I'll need another car anyway. I don't have room for two in my garage. So add 100-150 a month for a parking spot to the price.
If you do a road trip every weekend, then yes I agree an electric car wouldn't work for you. But if you do a road trip only occasionally, then there are many car sharing services (ZipCar) or even better, car sharing co-ops, and also plenty of rental agencies. You don't have to own two cars just because you occasionally want to drive far.
>> 4)I don't always drive to work. Occasionally I drive to work (20 mi), to a concert venue after work (40 mi), then home (30 mi). That's cutting it too close.
Even assuming none of those places had a charging opportunity, the second generation electric cars will be perfect for you, since they will surely add that extra 20 miles of range.
>> 5)I'm forgetful. If I forgot for even 1 evening to plug it in I'd be in trouble. That's not acceptable. It needs to be able to go at least a week without plugging in.
I suppose you'll just have to suck it up and turn your brain on for a change. A minor inconvenience in the big picture I think.
Parent
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:5, Informative)
Please - just because this is useless to you, doesn't mean it's useless.
Americans on average have 2.28 cars per household. The majority have a garage and can easily plug the thing in.
The average driver drives 15,000 per year. Most days have a predictable amount of driving that will be well under the 100 mile range.
At $30,000, this car will be cheap to operate over the life of the vehicle. No oil change, simple transmission, no coolant. Inexpensive energy.
Having friends who already own electric cars - I can tell you that the joy of having your car "full" every morning is wonderful. No more unplanned trips to the gas station. It's hard to state how fantastic this is.
Imagine if you had to take your cellphone to the mobile phone store a couple times per week to "fill" it up. We tolerate that with cars because that's what we're used to.
As a 5 seater hatchback, I can drive the kids to school, commute and get groceries. With 100 mile range, I can drive up to wine country for the weekend. Sure, I'll have another vehicle to tow my boat and drive into the mountains. But this car sounds fantastic and will handle 95% of my trips. If they build it, I will definitely buy one.
But I guess I'll be the only one, since it's "useless"
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You obviously have not had to sit in a car on the freeway with the sun beating down on it. The A/C is going to need to run almost nonstop to keep it tolerable.
Consider the fact that, in as little as 30 minutes, a parked car can turn itself into a fucking OVEN. As in, a car can raise itself by 1 degree per minute even if the outside ambient temperature is a mere 70 degrees.
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Interesting)
Been there, done that. Mid-summer Los Angeles traffic near the 405/101 interchange with two nearby accidents a few years ago (one of the events that scarred me enough to stay out of LA whenever possible). Temps were right around the 100-degree mark, and all of those exhaust vapors made breathing even more difficult. The engine was overheating, so I had to kill the A/C to reduce the load, and rolled down all of the windows. It wasn't a pleasant scenario, but even though there was little wind, it was not the deadly oven that you're describing.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If I forget to put gas in the car, a little light comes on when I still have a gallon or so left, and I pull into a conveniently placed refilling station, which in an urban setting is every few miles. Refilling takes 5 minutes. Running out isn't an issue. If you're 40 miles from home and get a warning that you're low on charge, you're fucked. You have no place you can easily and quickly refill- a full charge is 8 hours. Even a partial charge would be an hour or so. The logistics of that just don't wo
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Insightful)
"do I have enough fuel? Where can I get more fuel? I will plan my route and time accordingly!" It's really not that hard, Einstein.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:100 miles with or without A/C? (Score:4, Interesting)
And just where do you think the power comes from when you plug into the wall?
Well, I am pretty sure it at least comes from United States.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A/C isn't just for hot areas either. It is often used along with heat in the winter time to clear windshields. In many cars, the defrost setting turns on the A/C. The inside of a car can
Let's remember a few things for this discussion: (Score:5, Interesting)
1) There is already enough juice in the grid at night to power 80% of the 220 million cars without any further need for more power plants. (According to the DoE) [autobloggreen.com].
2) The average commute for people is far less than 100 miles, which means the only thing you could be missing out on is a truck for hauling or a car for road trip vacations.
Now, the price hasn't been released. If it's under 30K, it's a winner. As the summary said, there's no details on the charge, but as long as I can plug it in at night and it's charged in the morning, it will not only save me gas, but I don't have to bother with filling up.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do people always worry about optimizing the wrong things?!?!
Seriously... I'm 36 years old and I've never run out of gas. Never. Am I really that much of an anomoly? Even for someone like yourself, it's got to be more rare than having your car break down with a flat tire or a busted hose or a water pump failure or an alternator.
So yes... running out of juice would require that you call AAA and get yourself towed home. It would suck.
But seriously. I think I'd rather worry about optimizing t
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Informative)
AC (also electric) is going to without a doubt cut down on the battery's life
Actually, not that much, unless you drive *really* slowly. The LEAF will have a 24 kW-h battery. The motor gets .24 kW-h/mile[1], and assuming you average 30 mph[2], the AC draws .75kW[3], and you use it 100% of the time, we have (x is hours drive time):
24 kW-h = 30 * .24 * x + .75 * x
[algebra happens]
x =~ 3.0
30mph * 3.0 hours = 90 miles, a 10% hit to overall range.
If they use the AC system as a heat pump instead of a resistive array, range on full heat will be about the same.
Just call up someone and have them bring a bit of gas to make it to the next gas station, but how are you going to move that electric car?
And then, the next gas crunch hits. Everyone's gonna be calling me up to borrow my electric vehicle, but how are you going to move that gas-powered car?
I give a decent percentage chance of this actually occurring for some reason in a closer timeframe than my mean-time-to-oops-dry-tank, which is currently measured in decades.
[1] 100 mile range / 24 kW-h battery [wikipedia.org]
[2] With a crappy 1 hour, 30 mile commute, where you spend good chunk of time cruising the freeway followed by some traffic lights when you get to the city
[3] The amount a 8200 BTU/h window-type air conditioner pulls, which is a reasonable comparable for this size car.
Parent
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:3, Interesting)
You might want to double-check those figures before accepting them as gospel. They're not assuming charging at night; they're assuming that any and all excess non-peaking capacity in the electrical grid is used to charge the cars. This is wildly unrealistic and provides only a best-case figure. Basically they're saying that if you ran every coal plant in the country ba
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So, I'm 50% wrong, and out of the box we can only charge 90 million cars. Or I'm 75% wrong and it's 45 million. Or I'm 90% wrong, and we can only immediately put 22 million EVs on the road.
Can you give up on progress and go back to whittling wooden crucifixes where you don't have access to a computer? Jesus fucking Christ. I've never run into so many absolutely stupid and cynical naysayers. Just give up and die already, and at least leave more oxygen unmolested.
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's remember some other things that I think are relevant to the discussion. Or really just one thing: Amdahl's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law [wikipedia.org], which I think is woefully ignored in the green-car world. As an result-oriented environmentalist, this disappoints me immensely.
In short, Amdahl's law says that when you want to improve a system that is made up of lots of different components, you do best to improve the lowest-performing part first. In programming, that means focusing your performance analysis on the parts of the program that are taking the most time before you focus on making the fast parts faster. In terms of automobiles, that means you should replace the most fuel-guzzling part of the fleet before you start thinking about making the thrifty cars thriftier.
Let's do some numbers, for the same number of miles driven, replacing a 12 mpg vehicle with a 15 mpg vehicle saves you as much as replacing a 30 MPG vehicle with a 60 MPG vehicle. Improve that 12 mpg to 18 mpg and now you need to replace a 30 mpg with a 180 MPG car (the EPA calculates the carbon-cost of an electric vehicle using our mix of power source to be roughly 120 mpg) to match the fuel savings.
So if we were really serious about making a dent in oil consumption and CO2, we would be pushing for more fuel-efficient pickup trucks, cargo vans and SUVs instead of this inane (but highly press-friendly!) pursuit of ever-more-efficient small vehicles. The people that drive those vehicles can't or won't replace them with small cars no matter how efficient.
Ultimately, it comes down to whether we value results or whether we value cool technology. As a gadget-nerd, I freely admit that all-electric cars are much sexier than a new pickup truck that gets 16 mpg instead of 12. But the programmer inside me knows that the pickup truck will probably do a lot more good over the lifetime of the vehicle. There are only so many R&D dollars going around and I feel like they aren't being well spent (from the point of view of the environment -- for marketing, the halo effect of the Prius is definitely worth it).
Parent
Re:Math? (Score:4, Informative)
His point is therefore that improving the worse-performing engines (SUV's, trucks, vans, lorries, busses, etc.) so that they *save* an extra N units of fuel will be the largest factor in reducing the fuel consumption. For each truck that gains 6 miles/gallon in efficiency, you'd need a car that gained 120 miles/gallon, or 2 that gained 60,
FWIW, I think his argument falters when you take into account the overwhelming number of cars on the road, compared to other vehicles. If you figure a 20:1 ratio, then that saving of 120 miles/gallon is still only (6*20) or 6 miles/gallon/car. The reciprocal problem, however, is one of uptake (you need 20 cars to have their efficiency increased for the effect of 1 truck, if both cars and trucks gain 6mpg). Personally I think it probably comes out in the wash, so we should strive to improve both
Simon
Parent
Re:Efficiency (Score:4, Insightful)
Now there's the real scam. Why, if one person owns two vehicles do they have to pay insurance for both vehicles? You can only drive one at a time. I had the same deal for a time there when I owned two motorcycles. Oh boy, I think I got a 10% discount for the second motorcycle. The risk to the insurer is the same for two as one. Price it at the higher vehicle and the second should be free. There's no way I can wreck both vehicles at the same time.
Parent
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
The metered outlets will be installed by a third party and offered as an amenity. It's just like when internet started in apartments first. You install one EV Charge Parking Spot, and you have ten times as many potential customers driving by it every day.
Again, once there's an inexpensive, safe, reliable EV that goes 100 miles on a single charge, all other problems become trivial to solve.
Parent
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously... is everyone in America a "can't do" blowhard these days?
An auto manufacturer from Japan just did what American companies said was impossible, and has built a 5 seater EV with a 100 mile range with today's technology.. and the problem will be running some goddamn conduit and 220V?
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?
Parent
Re:Let's remember a few things for this discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
Electric vehicles are nearly twice as efficient as ICEs converting their energy store into forward motion. Even if electric energy was 50% more expensive than gasoline energy, it would still save you money.
Parent
sign me up! (Score:5, Interesting)
If this car is less than $22k, I will buy one day-of-release. TFPR does not provide an MSRP, but it does say it will be low-priced. Four doors, and your gas bill gets moved over to your house electric bill. I never drive more than 100 miles in a day, so it would be perfect for getting me around town on all my stop-start errands.
Moving the cost of driving from a fuel purchase tracked with credit card might make it more difficult for people to get reimbursed by their company for business driving. I wonder how that's going to get sorted. Also, in a roommate situation, it becomes a little unfair to evenly split the electric bill if only one tennant is charging a car.
Looks cool.
Seth
Laminated Lithium-ion Batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
9.2 kWh pack recharges in 15 minutes time. This truly could be a game changer in EV-battery technology.
Full detail on the battery tech:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html [greencarcongress.com]
Just think if it was remote control by Kindle (Score:5, Funny)
It could make the car disappear. Parking problem, solved
Just interested in the batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
I wish I can get a hold of the batteries. I am sure they are a better replacement to the Trojan batteries I am using for my solar system.
City states (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should I like this better than say... (Score:4, Insightful)
A Tesla Model S
It has a better range, a quicker full charge, a potential 5 minute battery swap, and the "S" is for SEXY.
lithium-ion tech (Score:3, Interesting)
Lithium-ion batteries are not ready for this task. They are not easy to make. That is why they cost a fortune. I don't think I am alone, but I have never had a Li-ion laptop battery make it more than 1 year in a laptop. After about 1 year the run time on the battery goes from 2 hours ( new ) down to 30-45 minutes. Plus, I don't run on battery power that often. Less than 2 hours a week. This tech is not ready to be put in mass produced cars. I know all the new claims about longevity. I bet the those who believe those claims also believe the claims Lenovo made about the battery in my current laptop. Battery life claims are notoriously unreliable.
One issue is that Li-ion batteries are very sensitive to heat. Leave them out in the sun, and their capacity will drop like a rock - even if you do not use them. This is going to be a huge problem anywhere where it is sunny through much of the year. Heat kills a Li-ion battery's longevity. Parking a car under the LA sun is a perfect way to quickly kill an electric car.
I don't know how much the Nissan battery pack will cost, but a Tesla battery pack runs about $30,000. If you replace it every 2 years, the cost quickly gets out of hand. My guess is that Nissan will not make an binding promises about warranting the battery pack. If it fails ( drops to less than 50% initial capacity ) in less than 3 years, you will be SOL.
I did see an article in the WSJ ( Wall Street Journal ) about an electric lawn mover about 2 months ago. The company clearly stated that the $800 battery pack would have to be replaced approximately every 2 years. Sadly, I think this is the brutal reality when it comes to battery powered vehicles. Massive piles of batteries that will require disposal, and the expense of purchasing new while disposing on the old.
I think a better solution is a supercharged engine that is 1.5 liters or less. Add to that capacitors and electric motors for acceleration. Capacitors are light, so they don't weigh down a car like batteries do. When and only when accelerating, the capacitors power the electric motors to give acceptable acceleration. When cruising, a 1.5 liter supercharge engine should be able to carry most light cars along at 100 mph or less no problem. Massive power is only needed for high speeds ( 100+ mph ) and rapid acceleration. When cruising at constant speed, it does not matter if you have 600 hp or 90 hp. During cruising and braking, the capacitors can be recharged. The capacitors only need enough power for short bursts. They discharge quickly, but also recharge quickly. Start and stop traffic might wear down the power in the capacitors fast than the system can recharge. However, you can accelerate on the engine alone in start and stop traffic. You generally don't need rapid acceleration in start and stop traffic.
Keep in mind coal power production is not exactly what one would call efficient ( less than 50% ). Nor is power transmission ( 10% or more loss ). Nor is turning electricity back into forward momentum. Also, high efficiency batteries are going to require a lot of rare earth metals. Unfortunately, world supply is limited.
Got one (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, I use another car for driving vacations, but these battery electric cars are perfect for some of us.
Re:History (Score:5, Informative)
The Volt is not a BEV, it is an EREV. That is, the Volt is a plug-in series hybrid that uses a small gas engine to drive the electrical system (somewhat like a diesel-electric locomotive except with gasoline). The goal is to run all-electric for 40 miles (covering 75% of commuters) and kick in the gas engine when the battery gets low enough.
And it appears to be on schedule for 2010. More info here [gm-volt.com] and here [chevrolet.com].
Parent
Re:Where's the Outlet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everyone owns a swimming pool.. are you suggesting people should stop making diving boards?
Not everything is about you.
Parent
Re:WORTHLESS (Score:5, Funny)
Two Nissan LEAF cars + duct tape = 320km range.
I like your idea!
Parent
on the road charging? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was wondering if I could do the same thing I have for camping trips. I have a front and rear receiver hitch, and a 220V generator on a mount that slides into the receiver hitch. It's 5 hp, and runs a RV air conditioner for 5 hours on under 5 gallons, I am sure you could do a better generator mount than this guy [joe-ks.com] if we get a hitch mount, and just plug the car charger into it for road trips, ditch the weight for in town. Hopefully the chargers aren't locked out while moving. Not only does the GEN not have to meet as many emissions standards ( = cheaper) but has other uses also.
Parent
Re:on the road charging? (Score:5, Funny)
Not only does the GEN not have to meet as many emissions standards
That's the spirit!!
Parent
FUD Farm (Score:4, Informative)
You have posted elsewhere the same thing. What are you, the brain damaged step-child of an Exxon board member?
A DOT vehicle can easily carry the batteries to get you to a charging station or even back to your house.
The hurricane fear mongering is just sad.
And maintenance is far less expensive for an EV, because it's far less complicated mechanically. If you'd done any research on the GM vehicle, you'd know that they basically rotated the tires. There are Priuses with over a hundred thousand miles that haven't needed new batteries. And the batteries will be less expensive too replace than putting in an entirely new engine, so you could literally keep the same car for decades if you kept it rust free.
Honestly, who is paying you to repeat the same inane bullshit?
Parent
Re:This puts the lie to the H-1B program. (Score:4, Funny)
Um, I'm an engineer, and I'm in Japan, and I'm working for a Japanese company despite my American nationality. Watch it before you make such blanket statements. ;-)
Liar. If you live in Japan, tell me what Mothra is doing right now.
Thought so.
Parent
Re:Doomed. (Score:4, Insightful)
According to their press release, they claim that 70% of their target consumers drive less than 100 miles a day. I know there are many USian cities that would make that unfeasable, but it's important to remember that this car is going to be a slam dunk for a lot of people out there.
Furthermore, once these things start to sell, I can't imagine it'd be too long before the capacity becomes comparable to a regular gas-guzzler.
Parent
Re:Doomed. (Score:5, Insightful)
So, given the choice between saving thousands dollars a year on gasoline and maintenance, or renting a car for the entire week you get for vacation and the few weekends you can get out of town, you'll pick the more expensive option?
You said this car was "doomed" because it doesn't work for anyone, which is complete nonsense. For many people I know, who nearly always travel to their vacation via airplane, and who rarely leave town on the weekends, a cheap electric plus an occasional rental is the most economic option. And most people live in cities, not out in the sticks.
If you regularly leave on the weekends and you can only afford one car, then go with an ICE. If you live in the sticks, get an ICE. Otherwise, if you do the math, this is the way to go.
Parent