Navigating a Geek Marriage? 1146
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
Perhaps you can ask your girl (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.).
Sports is an example, not the only cause of neglect. If your girl is a literary geek, she can probably explain this concept to you. Ask her about it when you've finished a gaming or Linux debugging session which prevented you from installing the bookshelf that you promised her 2 weeks ago.
Forget the books (Score:5, Insightful)
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
wrong kind of books (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't read books to make your marriage work. Don't ask strangers on slashdot like geeks were some sort of alien race. Get advice from people you know who are already married, parents, relatives -- people you know and trust. And then, relax, ignore it all, as the biggest thing is "different strokes for different folks"/"everyone has to learn for themselves".
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Geekiness is irrelevant. (Score:5, Insightful)
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
Learn how to talk, how to fight, and how to consider the other person, and you'll be fine. Don't try to own your partner and let him/her do things with other people that you can't reasonably do together. Don't be afraid to show your feelings, and talk about little issues before they become big issues. Compromises are inevitable, so don't think of these are a failure on either part.
The single biggest thing that is needed to make a marriage work is simply work. You can't expect a relationship to last without maintenance. Make sure to have time for each other when times are rough, and you'll be fine.
And ultimately, if things eventually stop working, divorce is not really a failure. It's simply an option to be considered if the relationship is hurting either or both parties.
Rules of seeking relationship advice (Score:5, Insightful)
The first rule of seeking relationship advice on Slashdot:
1. Do not seek relationship advice on Slashdot.
Re:Forget the books (Score:4, Insightful)
...unless raiding together IS what the two of them like to do for their anniversary :P
Communication (Score:1, Insightful)
literature.
There is no recipe that could be quoted in books or
communication is the most important key. We talk (even when both are travelling due to our
jobs) at leat an hour per day. Beyond that it is helpful, that we both don't loose our humor in
difficult situations: e.g. we agreed beforehand, that everything that ever happens will be my fault.
So by now if something happens, i even claim my privilege to be the guilty party
sting out of any discussion, whos fault it may be.
CU & good luck!
Basics (Score:2, Insightful)
Books (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't live by books, live by your brain. Books can help provide inspiration but you're not stupid... your brain knows if/when there's something wrong and how to fix it. People normally run off and cry to their friends in order to be told what they already knew. You know this. You know if the marriage is working or not. You know if you want to / need to work at it or not. To be honest, a marriage you need to "work at" in any way probably wasn't started on the best footing ("I don't really love you any more, darling, but let's work at it"? It's almost like saying "I don't find you sexually attractive any more but let's keep trying and see if I can keep it up" - Oh, and marriages based on sex aren't really marriages).
Ignore therapists, books, courses, "relationship counselling" (Yeurk!), all the other nonsense... live your lives together and be happy for as long as you both can and, if you can't, see what can be done to fix it. Sometimes that means divorce is actually the best way to find happiness for you both... so be it.
"I'm doing this because I read it in a book" comes nowhere near "I'm doing this because I want to make you happy".
Now run off and enjoy married life with your geek girl, you lucky sod.
Re:Geekiness is irrelevant. (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't get married at all, living in sin is much more fun!
But if you must:
1) When problems arise: argue, find a compromise, make up (that is the bit which involves lots of sex if you are lucky!). Couples that don't argue never last, all that suppressed/hidden resent eventually finds its way to the surface...
2) Stop reading about how to make marriage work
3) Stop asking questions about how to make marriage work on /.
Marriage kernel 0.01, suitable for hackers only (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no stock "off the shelf" marriage; every marriage is self-built, like Linux kernel 0.01.
You must learn to modify the source to fix problems that come up. There is no manual, and although there is a large user community, all of them have different systems, and consequently may give you bad advice. At least you have a co-author to help you.
Here is one piece of advice. Neither of you should play timesink online games, such as MMOs, unless you do it together or set clear boundaries about the times when you will play. Otherwise you or your wife will use those games to escape the marriage when it becomes difficult, and avoiding problems will make them worse.
Honestly: be honest, and stick together as a team (Score:5, Insightful)
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
The other underlying principle I'd add is: take the attitude that you're a team, and its you against the world--not necessarily in a combative sense, but in a "we stick together" and an economic (perhaps competative) sense. If you do these two things, you'll do well, and weather just about any storm.
There are other obvious guidelines, like not tearing each other down to your friends (even joking about the ball-and-chain will propogate memes that undermine what you have, so don't do it), not engaging in activity that can result in relationship-destroying behavior that you'll regret--like drunken "boy's nights out" in nightclubs or pick-up joints, or my personal favorite: these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ... but these are all common sense things that are directly derived from the two basic principles above: be absolutely honest with each other even when (or more precisely, especially when) it is difficult, and stick together as a team against the inevitable external pressures that the rest of the world will exert (in whatever form it takes, be it economic, cultural, external tempation, vicious inlaws, jealous exes, or whatever).
It really is the same as all other marriages. (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't go into a coma and hope that problems will fix themselves (they don't).
Tell her that she is special (she is).
Get your ass off the computer chair do stuff with her (she wants you to take part in her activities)
Get out of bed when the alarm goes off, shave and make her breakfast, buy her flowers ones in a while.
If you think that marrying a geek is extremely different than a non geek you are dead wrong. I married a geek girl, and I nearly lost her because I thought she was 90% logic and 10% emotions. I was wrong and now 10 years after our marriage I have just gone through the worst summer ever, and have finally realized that she deserves much more than I have been offering her.
I fell into a vegetable state where I was waiting for things (we were fighting a lot) to get better. Some guys watch sports, other play computer games and some do other shit. No matter what one chooses, all these activities boils down to a low activity veggie state where one resigns and hopes things, in some magical way will get better.
After some serious TLR (Total Life re-engineering) I'm back on track and we are rebuilding our relationship now. All it took was for me to realize that my special little geek girl are as all other girls, they need more than pure logic and reasoning, they need complements and they need to feel that they are special in the way only you can make her feel. A male geek and a female geek has as much in common as a male and a female, while a female geek and a "ordinary" female has almost everything in common.
Re:One advice (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree completely, throw the books away!
I think people like stereotypes and consequently try to change themselves so they can fit into them - not the other way around. For example, if most successful relationship books deal with caveman-style guys and submissive girls, that's because many people draw comfort from these role models, it's something that they can "aspire" to and those stereotypes can be used to explain away anything and everything that comes up in regard to social issues (no actual insight required).
That's the reason why most people always try to become more jock-like or cheerleader-like as the case may be. If you have typical jock/cheerleader problems, your relationship is perceived as normal, you can then go out and buy books that tell you "it's normal because guys are always that way and girls are always that way", most of them purporting (without a real scientific basis of course) that's how it's always been and evolution forces us to be jocks and cheerleaders anyway. On the other hand, if you have real and deeply special problems, you're perceived as a freak and your issues are quickly attributed to failure to be a real jock or cheerleader.
So you basically have to decide if you want to be a conformist who is striving to be a stereotype or whether you want to be yourself. Either way you'll be paying dearly for the path you choose.
Real geeks don't get married (Score:1, Insightful)
In the U.S. 58% of marriages end in divorce. And of the remaining 42%, my guess is that at least half of them become loveless marriages, with the two people being miserable and staying together for various reasons (e.g. financial considerations, "we have to think of the kids", "what will my family say?", "what will I do if I'm alone?", "divorce is against my religion").
So you're entering an arrangement with an over 75% chance of failure, one way or another. Why would a sensible person do that? "Geeks" are supposedly smart people. Marriage is an outdated institution (its origins are in property relations, it was a way for families to merge their property and wealth). If two people love each other, they'll be together, regardless of whether it's officially sanctioned by the state.
But be careful. It's perhaps even easier to fall out of love than it is to fall in love. And when it happens (as it most likely will), it's easier to get out of when you don't have all the legal crap to go through.
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
Dear OP,
clearly you are not the target audience of those books, throw them out. You two are the only ones who know enough about your relationship to suggest anything, but if your mindset is having fun walking through life together, you'll be better off than thinking about all the things that go wrong. You mostly find what you're looking for, you know.
And if you let it get boring, it will be boring, and probably short, too.
It's not that different (Score:5, Insightful)
Geek marriage is not that different to any other marriage. Three pointers:
In geek terms (Score:5, Insightful)
Marriage is like a static group in any RPG. The same basic facts apply.
1. You need goals to achieve anything. You need to achieve things to be happy. If one or more of your group is unhappy, the result will inevitably be dissolution of the group. Set goals early, set them often.
2. Whenever undertaking any task it is important to understand each group member's role. Though not strictly necessary, it is good to have a leadership position to orchestrate any support roles. This position may be shifted around the group based on whatever the scenario requires.
3. Eventually you will reach conflict, it's inevitable. Practice care in participating in conflicts. Attempt to understand all party's grievances and complaints and effect a useful resolution. Submit the proposed resolution to the group and hope for a diplomatic reception.
4. Keep the channels of communication open. Be sure all group members understand and approve of any actions prior to taking them. Nobody wants a Leeroy Jenkins in their group!
5. When you wish for your group to grow, the most important prerequisite is always preparation.
6. As your group grows in numbers, avoid favoritism. All members should be treated with respect and given the assistance they need to become fully useful participants.
7. Members of your group are unlikely to be so exclusively! They may still have close ties to the group or groups that nurtured them. Be sure to respect those ties and even assist in maintaining them.
8. That said, members of the group must understand their priorities. Most successful groups have prioritized with their own goals in mind.
9. Finally, you are not the group. And the group is not you. Sometimes you must focus on your own goals. Always take time to solo and be understanding of the need of others to do the same.
Those are just a few tips on successful grouping in World of Wedcraft. Good luck!
Re:Forget the books (Score:5, Insightful)
Being married (yes I am!) falls in the same category as having friends, being a manager...etc - they are relations that you have, not methods that you apply. That's where all the books have it wrong suggestion that there are techniques to apply instead of being authentic.
Geek-oriented marriage? (Score:3, Insightful)
Dude, how about a marriage-oriented marriage instead? You're not entering some club, you know.
Honesty is the key. A lot of people will disagree with me there, but if you can't be honest to your effing partner, with whom can you ever be honest then?
When I asked my first girl out, who happens to be my wife now, I told her my views on life and how I wanted and needed a relationship to be (both sexually and not) from the beginning. She happened to agree with what I said. I was honest and she was honest. That's why we've been married for almost four and a half years now and have been together for over seven.
No matter if one of the people involved tends toward submissive or dominant, the important part is that the relationship is built on being equal partners. Equal at least in the right to be happy and get from the relationship what they need. But to make each other happy, one must know what the other needs and what they have trouble dealing with.
I don't know how people can expect to live together for the rest of their lives, ideally, when they don't dare bring up wishes and dreams, fears and basic needs for fear of losing the other. How can people believe that someone whom you're afraid to tell your most important secrets, the things that are such a big part of you, would make a good partner?
The geekyness... what the heck does it matter? Whether you like being called a geek or not, the fact remains that we all have hobbies and interests. Being a geek is merely a label for how widely spread your hobby is (gaming retains its geeky status only through nostalgic means). Can you accept her hobbies? Can she accept yours? If not, you're going to have trouble that has nothing to do with geekyness anyway.
Re:Perhaps you can ask your girl (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a geek friend, she's more of a punk freak geek but still, geeky, and she and her WoW addict man have got the same basic issues as your average non-geek couple. I suspect those books you are reading are equally applicable just substitute your relevant geek interests and geek social networks and it should all be much the same (assuming the books are not just pop psychology twaddle).
Simple (Score:1, Insightful)
"What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
Overanalyzing
Re:Nows not the time to be logical (Score:3, Insightful)
Wait, what? Christ died for the church? I sincerely hope you're just trolling... or being sarcastic or whatever.
The christian ideas about marriage are sick to the core and should never be applied without liberal amounts of interpretation. Fact is, the christian interpretation of the bible is very heartless and uncaring, no matter the words they spout.
Love your wife sacrificially, even when she DOES NOT deserve it? I know that christians tend to sound like crackpots, but how in the seven levels of hell do you expect this to work? Do you really think your it-girl wife will respect you for lying at her feet whimpering for attention like a dog, never saying a word while she throws your money out the window? This is the stuff sitcom-stereotypes are made of and you want to tell us this somehow works?
Marital harmony will ensue... It isn't harmony, when half of the involved people have to completely bend over backwards for the other in the hopes that this person will take pity on them for it...
Man, you are a seriously fucked up individual...
Re:Forget the books (Score:3, Insightful)
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books.
I'd be very careful with that advice. Intelligence does not correlate with knowing how to navigate relationship issues, personal issues and building a life together. Why do you think there's a separate roll for wisdom and for intelligence?
Warning: that last sentence is a joke. Please do not take it literally. Instead, focus on the fact that even intelligent people can learn from others.
Re:Geekiness is irrelevant. (Score:5, Insightful)
Define argue.
My wife and I have lived together for over six years now and as far as I know, we never truly argued.
This is something I hear very often. Couples who don't argue don't last. Well, crap, we're doomed. Why is it good advice to have an outlet for suppressed resent? Why not advise to talk it out (as in discussing it) BEFORE it cann even become suppressed? Why do you have to resent your partner in the first place?
Us, we don't do resentment. We just don't see the need.
Re:August (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nows not the time to be logical (Score:5, Insightful)
It goes without saying... (Score:3, Insightful)
No crying.
No getting in touch with your feminine side.
The man's job (geek or otherwise) is the three F's.
Fixing
Freighting
Frickin
The man makes the complex political decisions about whether or not the nation should deploy cruise missiles, bomb anything from orbit, or bail out the banks.
The woman gets to decide what you spend the money on, where you live, how many children to have, where they will be educated, where to go on holiday and anything else not included in the previous sentence.
The hard part:
When the woman makes a remark about something that upsets her you must always resist the temptation to offer a solution. Sympathise.
But most important of all
Be excellent to each other.
Re:Forget the books (Score:3, Insightful)
Intelligent people realize they don't know everything, and are willing to seek advice from a variety of sources. Which they'll then evaluate.
I guess you've never heard of ladyboys then! (Score:3, Insightful)
"but in reality a woman with a penis isn't any more attractive to women than it is to men"
You should visit bangkok sometime! :o)
After 19 Years... (Score:3, Insightful)
Be considerate.
Shut up and listen when she wants to talk.
Respect her opinion.
She's smarter than you are, get over it.
It's more important to be friends than lovers (sex is fun, but no foundation for a marriage).
Give her the remote before you fall asleep.
If she prefers Windows (or a Mac or a different Linux distro), let it go.
Very few things are important enough to argue with your spouse about.
Money is the biggest marital stressor, to avoid this, live well within your means.
Settle disagreements quickly.
Even geeky girls like tasteful jewelry.
Make time to take her out on a date at least once a week.
Don't be an insensitive clod.
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Re:Intriguing (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
NLP?? [wikipedia.org] I certainly disagree.
I had this stuff inflicted on me during a management course recently. Being the nerdy little science geek I am I went out to investigate it and discovered the same thing that you will discover if you go out and spend some serious time looking through its underlying claims - that is, that it's mostly pulled directly out of someone's plump rectum. I didn't just take my own word for it - I went to the psychology dept at my local university and checked my findings with senior research staff.
That's not to say that learning to listen isn't incredibly important to keeping a marriage going, and it probably is true that approaching that via NLP, bullshit as the specifics are, is still better than not bothering to get the skillset at all. However, it would probably be more healthy to avoid the obfuscatory layer of mumbo-jumbo. NLP selling organisations can be virtually cult-like, and the 'science' has been recognised as more or less valueless since about the 80s.
Posting anonymously because I have a day-job.
Re:Nows not the time to be logical (Score:3, Insightful)
not socially intelligent or successful at all he was scary (aggressive drinking manipulative).
You have to be socially intelligent to be successfully manipulative.
Mod: +6 (Score:4, Insightful)
Very, very good advice.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the last paragraph, provided the first paragraph is properly observed: if you have a history of open honesty (and mutual respect) then there are no hard barriers on behaviour in public - you will both know intuitively what is unacceptable/hurtful/undermining behaviour. Saying that, it's vital to have that well-established foundation of trust and respect before relaxing the rules.
I would add one important piece of advice though: Remember That You Will Both Screw Up. In any close relationship, you will inevitably end up hurting one another from time to time; sometimes in everyday little ways, sometimes in almighty one-off fuck-ups. Patience and forgiveness from both parties are the only medicine for such ills, and when applied liberally and sincerely, the relationship will often be stronger after the fuck-up than before.
If you need a book, you're not ready (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously how you approach it depends on the country you live in and the rules, laws and expectations that come from the culture and families you are both marrying into.
The problem with geeky types is that they ofter think there are/should-be rules or tried and tested techniques for doing things. When dealing with other people (apart from the obivousl ones to do with respect and consideration - both ways) there aren't.
For a start, what are your plans for having children? - have you discussed it. How much are your / her family going to be involved? Who's going to give up or continue working? What will you / she do if the partner has an affair - are either of you the jealous type. Don't forget, that people change after marriage (though some, who should: don't). Is the motivation to be married, or to be with the other person (if the latter, why marry at all?). Maybe when you have both sat down and had a full and frank discussion about these, and other topics you will be ready to decide whether ot not to marry.
Finally, remember that when women say "commitment", it frequently means "sacrifice". What are you prepared to give up?
My Grandfather's Advice (Score:5, Insightful)
At my grandparents' 65th wedding anniversary, my grandfather was asked for the secret to his long marriage. He said, "In any domestic dispute, if it turns out you are right, apologize at once."
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
I suggest some NLP training
And while you're at it, an astrology course. Knowing someone's zodiac sign really helps in understanding them. /sarcasm
You're asking Slashdot? (Score:2, Insightful)
My Advice (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone's going to have their own bit of advice, and you have to take it all in aggregate and boil it down. Here are my additions to the pot:
1. The most useful thing in all those self-help books, especially for geeks, is the chapters on communication, and specifically active listening. Not only is this useful in marriage but in the workforce too. I suggest the habit called "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" from David Covey's "The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People".
2. The biggest arguments any couple has will be about money, eventually. Even though you make more money as life goes on, life will cost more, so you'll have more disposable income at the beginning. This is a recipe for an explosion a few years in when you have to reign each others' spending in. Fingers get pointed, etc. Learn to track your finances together. Also, each person should have a set amount of money per week to allocate *as they wish* and the other partner can make no comments on its use. As long as everything fits in the budget, no complaints.
3. The biggest realization for me was that if something is bothering you, then *you* have to take action to fix it, or learn to ignore it. For instance, some people complain about stupid things like their partner leaving the toothpaste cap off. You can't change the other person. That bears repeating: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON. Either invent a toothpaste tube with a cap that closes itself, or get his and hers tubes, or just forget about it. Same thing goes with cleaning the house. Typically the female is the one complaining that the male doesn't care about {dirty floors, windows, whatever} and she thinks she can change him if she just keeps nagging him. This is a myth that it's always the female though - it can go the other way. Either way, nagging doesn't work, so you just have to take action and do it. Once *both* people realize that, things go a lot smoother. My saying for this is, "expect little, appreciate much".
Good luck!
Making marriages work (Score:3, Insightful)
1) As a geek, you might enjoy Robert Heinlein's suggestions in Time Enough for Love ("the Notebooks of Lazarus Long") for their practicality (plus, he trained as an engineer). Things like "budget the luxuries first"; "rub her feet".
2) Some years ago, I was at a conference with my wife -- we had just recently married, and we thought one session looked particularly interesting. It was called "Making long term relationships work" or something similar. The course began with the leader asking who in the room was in a long term relationship. Nearly every hand went up. He then asked us to go round the room and each say who we were and how long we'd been in our relationship. We were par for the course in saying we'd been together for five years and had just got married. The final person in the room answered by saying she wasn't sure if she could really claim to be in a long-term relationship... her husband had died last year after 54 years of marriage. At which point, the course leader turned to the rest of us and said "*That* is a long-term relationship. *That* is the timescale on which you should be looking to make things work. It requires a completely different perspective from how you would normally tend to think about things. How will you survive tragedy? How will you be a parent to your thirty-year old child? What will tie you together with your partner on a permanent basis, no matter the insults flung at it?" It goes beyond learning how to get along, or manage money, or put the lid on the toothpaste -- it's about finding a way to get to 80 together. It's tough, but one of the most worthwhile things you could ever do. Good luck!
Re:Honestly: be honest, and stick together as a te (Score:3, Insightful)
I think honesty about little things is incredibly important. Dishonesty about little things ("How have you been?" "What've you been up to?") is cancerous.
And Be Friends. (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm just sayin' (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
They have books for this? (Score:3, Insightful)
I married my high school sweetheart (dated through high school, college, got married after we both graduated.) We're both 37 now, still very happy!
We're like you: I graduated with a BA in physics but am now an IT geek, she studied literature then went on to get a Master's in theology.
I didn't realize they had books on marriage. We didn't even consider them. But over the years we realized some important things:
Take the Advice I Ignored - Twice (Score:5, Insightful)
DON'T DO IT
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
My experience tells me otherwise. You normally both end up going to bed feeling really shitty, and things get left unsaid. You have a bad night sleep, because you're worried, and wake up the next day feeling crap, thoughts stewing in your head, often blaming the other person. Very often, it's easy to just sweep it under the carpet and things get left unsaid. Overall, things get worse.
Actually, it should be, "Never go to sleep angry." Normally we end up going to bed, and after a few minutes, we're feeling crap, and start discussing rationally.
I'm not saying it's not important to know when to walk away for tempers to cool (that's definitely good advice) but leaving things hanging in the air for any length of time, even for sleep, is not good.
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now.
Good luck!
Re:August (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Forget the books (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with the parent here. Just like anything else in life, you can never improve too much. To that end, why should it be bad to seek wisdom/advice from books, or spiritual advice, or therapists/counselors, or family, or other married friends, etc etc.
That's not to say that one should obsess on trying to be "perfect" (that will never happen), but there is nothing wrong with working toward a goal of being the best you can be. Just like your own life, a marriage is like a shared life. You both exist on your own, as your own people, with your own interests and personalities. At the same time, you have this shared life that must be maintained in the same manner as your own, individual life. In short, don't ever stop growing!
If you're not growing, you're dying.
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
agreed.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
i heard a comedian say it, on tv.
my wife hits me when i say it.
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
do not use NLP in close relationships (Score:2, Insightful)
it is a sure recipe for disaster.
be honest
you need to be able to talk with your girlfriend/wife on nearly all matters
you need to be able to laugh together, and to laugh about each other
Re:Forget the books (Score:3, Insightful)
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
It's not quite that simple. Not sure that most self-help books are any good, but my wife and I got married in a church that had an extensive pre-marital program and we've really, really appreciated it. Having a few tools in your toolbox and knowing that various things that happen are not unexpected or unique to you is pretty powerful. Especially up front, where you can be ambushed by an issue and say/do things that set a bad tone early on.
Personally, I highly recommend the book Love & Respect [amazon.com]
And I definitely disagree with the "it's common sense" philosophy I've seen in a couple of postings. It's often the fact that "common sense" for you and "common sense" for her (basically family/cultural norms) will differ but you won't be able to see it since "common sense" is so "obvious" so how could anyone sincerely and sanely disagree. If I had to give soundbites, I'd say "don't act in fear", "know your limitations", "negotiate", "what she's doing makes sense to her", "why are you doing what you're doing?", and "seek to understand before being understood", or something like that.
Re:Forget the books (Score:3, Insightful)
In other words, he shouldn't trust the "missing manual" books but instead perform some dry runs and see what works?
I say treat marriage as a poorly documented system that is open for modding.
Re:Nows not the time to be logical (Score:2, Insightful)
The GP left out a few details which help this to make more sense. Obviously you have a negative view of Christianity, but I'm going to ask that you please entertain a few ideas here for the purposes of this making sense.
First off, assume with me for a moment that when God created mankind, He also established social systems in place to make the concept of a family work. God knew that there are many different responsibilities in a family unit, and He designed both men and women different responsibilities. While society has made it like doing household work is demeaning or derogatory, and men are all on a power trip when they make decisions, ultimately everything needs to get done. There is no "better than" or "less than" in God's eyes. God gave both men and women natural inclinations. Every one of my female friends goes all mushy when the new mom comes in with her baby. My female friends make a better babysitter than I ever could, and my grandmother sewed some of the most amazing linens that are still in use nearly 50 years later. This isn't derogatory or demeaning; on the contrary I admire these skills in the women surrounding me. God designed men to protect and to lead. I will be the first in line to say that many men have been remiss in this regard and have abused their power, but every man to whom God has given the responsibility of leading a household will be held accountable to Him for how they ran it. Personally, I find that to be sobering and a solid reason to avoid going on a power trip.
The second note is related to the first: God *designed* men to respect naturally, so having to explicitly tell them to respect their wives is unnecessary. God *designed* women to love naturally, so telling them to love their husbands is unnecessary. The purpose of the Biblical passage that the GP posted was instructing guys to love their wife when it's hard and we don't feel she deserves it. It's easy to be unloving when loving is a skill that doesn't come naturally and we don't feel that she earned the added effort. Same for the ladies: respect doesn't come naturally, so it's easy to be disrespectful when she feels that he hasn't earned it and thus she doesn't feel that he's worth the added effort.
The Bible (and the GP) aren't saying for guys to 'whimper for attention like a dog while she throws your money out the window'. That's not the intent here, because in this example, he's not being loving (being loving and being a pansy are two different things), and if she's wastefully spending the money he earned, then she is being disrespectful while he is being a poor leader of his household. You're correct - it *doesn't* work, but don't for a second believe that what you described is an example of the Biblical concept of marriage.
Finally, I'll throw the Biblical definition of love out there. Love is not infatuation, it's not lust, it's not greed or coveteous. Love, as demonstrated throughout the Bible, is an unconditional, sacrificial concern for the well-being of the other person. Honestly, would you desire to be in a relationship with someone who only helped you when you helped them, who only loved you when they felt you loved them, and who only respected you when they felt you respected them? Or would you rather someone who is so concerned with your well-being that they would love you even when you were being unloving, respect you when you were being disrespectful, and help you even when you were being unhelpful? If both of you had that mindset of putting the other person's needs above your own, you'd be surprised how solid a relationship could be built from that. You're spot on when you state that it doesn't work when only half the people involved love unconditionally and sacrifically. It only works when *both* sides desire to do so.
So that's my corollary to the GP. The mods may do what they will.
Re:August (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is, the "Yes, dear" strategy is most often used as the path of least resistance. In other words, it is used to short circuit true communication and end a discussion with the least trouble possible. This produces a semblance of peace, but there are long term consequences to someone thinking they are right when they are not, and thinking your spouse is not giving you honest feedback, not to mention damage done in other relationships when your spouse supports you in being irrational or stupid. How does that engender respect? A better solution is to keep talking until you come to a consensus. Much more difficult and much more contentious short term, but long term much less so. You do intend on being married a long time, right?
Re:August (Score:5, Insightful)
Still trying to get this right after 17 years marriage (to the same girl) so good luck! Ooh and if you ask them which they want, they will tell you they want it solved, just don't try and offer them advice on how to accomplish that!
Re:Geekiness is irrelevant. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, the whole "Couples that don't argue, won't last" should be "Couples that want to argue but hold it in, won't last". Some poeple just get along all the time, it's rare, but it happens.
Which gets back exactly to: Communicate!
If you really want to say something then say it, never never never hold it in. You'll regret the lack of communication later.
Re:August (Score:3, Insightful)
That covers nearly everything I was going to post.
There are a lot of little things that look like total bullshit that really make a difference. I can say that, I've been married for almost 15 years now. So I have a little cred here. Always, every single night, ask her how her day went, and ask questions as she goes through it. You know you're doing this right when you can name her boss and at least two co-workers she interacts with daily and describe their personalities to some degree. Once again, sounds like bullshit, but it's a big impact.
There are two styles of conflict resolution. Some couples use direct confrontation, and some negotiation. We negotiate. They key is to find consensus, something you can both agree on completely. If you reach a decision and realize that you didn't win, she didn't win, but you won as a couple, then you're doing it right.
I think it was Heinlein who said "If you're wrong, apologize immediately. If you're right, apologize even faster." A bit harsh, but what he means is don't celebrate when you're right, and downplay it quickly. The problem is, that if you look victorious, she feels like she's lost. And that's not going to end well.
Every day, try to sit down to one meal a day together. Even if it's at McDonalds or something. This is where the "how'd your day go" conversation should happen.
A lot of people will tell you to do everything together. They're wrong. Do what you both enjoy doing together. Do what you don't both enjoy doing apart. I play video games. She knits. I ride my bike. She watches tv. We do cook together, go on road trips together, and a bunch of other stuff. But don't do stuff together just for the sake of doing stuff together. One of you will look bored, and the other will try to rush through things and not enjoy it. And that'll end badly. So just decide to do stuff apart sometimes.
Re:August (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree that that phrase is less often said than it needs to be said.
But by itself it accomplishes little. It can even be counter-productive. How often do *you* want to hear your loved one tell you "I'm sorry!" for exactly the same thing. Without some commitment to change (and progress thereof) it's really pretty meaningless.
Re:August (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's take alpart your list.
1 happens only if you married a liar. If she stops sex after you get married then she was faking liking it when you were dating.
2 happens If you have kids, yes she will get fat, but if you will get fat as well you lazy bastard.
3 happens only when you marry a liar that is hiding things from you see #1
4 she feels the same way, your parents are not a treat to her either.
5 Only because you let her.
6 Again, you married a control freak liar. your fault.
7 say yes, be honest.
8 again did she say she could?
9 OMFG shoot me now.
10 I host a MTG event monthly, Lan partys now consist of 4 42" plasmas in the living room with xbox360's or ps3's networked. she usually ends up the top of the heap and pisses off most of my friends.
If you marry someone that is incompatible with you and you lied most of your dating, yes you get what you listed. if you are honest to each other when you date, and you actually date people compatible with you you avoid most of the above.
the one I cant stand.... WTF is it with all the fricking pillows on the bed? we need 2... TWO!!!! not 60 of them!!!!!
Re:August (Score:2, Insightful)
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
True True! NEVER go to bed angry! EVER!
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
Take it even further. Every time you walk by her, just touch her ass, or brush up against her gently. Something, anything to keep the physical connection going also.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
Not even as a threat! NOT EVER!
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
Truer words have never been spoken! If you feel it's getting that bad, walk away! Things will be said that you can never take back and that will sit and ferment until it turns rancid and there is no fixing it! There will ALWAYS be fights. If you never fight, then there is something wrong!
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Here Here! The mo
Advice from a 30-year veteran (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Love one another. That's #1 and it always will be. If there is no mutual love, nothing else matters. Your definition and feelings about love (yes, it's about feelings, not just logic or chemical reactions) might be different from hers, but it's not definable anyway. You'll both know it when you have it. Keep it.
2. Stop reading the books. Books are bullshit. The relationship you create with one another is far beyond what can be defined within the squared-off parameters of some outsider's perspective or opinions. All you're doing is making the people who write those useless things a little more wealthy. In fact, you probably should not be listening to anyone on this site about this, including me, but I'm not charging you. Just remember what I say may be worth what you're paying for it. When all the books talk about "compatibility" and the like, they're ignoring the incredible relationships of polar opposites...I think of Mary Matalin and James Carville as a public example. In my own family, I see a couple who are as politically opposite as you can get, but they worship one another. Sometimes, it's not about being compatible, but loving and accepting someone, even if they're different.
3. Here's some man advice: listen. Trust me on this one...don't ever shut her off, no matter how boring the subject matter is, and especially if she wants to vent (yes, even about you). You can have your say when the time comes, but you have to learn to listen to her, showing interest in what she has to say. Always. Even if you don't agree. If you can do this, it will go a long way to your marriage lasting forever. This doesn't mean caving in or compromising. She needs to do the same thing. But men seem to have an issue with this...believe me, I do at times...but this is something that most women wish their men did better. Doing it isn't difficult. The effort you make will be appreciated in spades.
4. Remember that things work both ways. It's a marriage, not a game. You don't push the stick and expect her to move the way you want when you want. Same thing for her. If you like something, tell her. Then find out what she likes and do it. In all things, from movies to leisure to TV to sex. Everything. You cannot get the things you want from a relationship if you're not willing to share that responsibility. Neither can she.
5. If you value your relationship and you truly love her, be ready for fight for her, hard. I hope that you never have a reason to do this, but you have to be willing to give it all up for her if that moment comes. I'm not speaking just of "fighting" in the physical sense, but emotionally, romantically, spiritually, whatever. In the end, the fight may be futile, but you have to be willing to go as far as necessary if you value the relationship and want to preserve it, even save it. Some people stay together a long, long time, both knowing that love and devotion are there. But sometimes, one party doesn't realize the depths of love and devotion the other has, because words and physical gestures are not often enough to express it. The day may come when you really have to reach down for this, so be prepared for it.
Now, the cynics here might read this and laugh and call it bullshit, but I'm just trying to offer some words based on my personal experiences. Just for disclosure's sake, I'm the geek (professionally) and she's a school administrator. She's not a "geek" in the usual definitions of the term, but she's smart, beautiful, and a superb human being. I am as devoted to her now as I was when I first saw her, 36 years ago, when we were seniors in high school. Next month will be our 30th wedding anniversary. Hope that's evidence of experience.
Re:Nows not the time to be logical (Score:3, Insightful)
Fact is, the christian interpretation of the bible is very heartless and uncaring
Do you mean the average bible thumper's interpretation is heartless and uncaring, or the message itself is? If the former you are correct, if the latter you are sadly mistaken. "Love those that hate you, do good to those who do you harm" is hardly heartless. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". The bible's message is that YOU ARE FORGIVEN because one faultless man gave his life to pay for your transgressions. That doesn't seem heartless to me!
Love your wife sacrificially, even when she DOES NOT deserve it?
If you can't then you don't love. If you can't forgive, your marriage is doomed. Forgiveness is the very core of Christianity; it is its main message.
Do you really think your it-girl wife will respect you for lying at her feet whimpering for attention like a dog, never saying a word while she throws your money out the window?
That's not the message. And if there is enough money to do you, why would you care if she wastes it so long as it makes her happy? Of course, it must go both ways. Now, if it's money you worship, then your only choice is to find a woman who also worships money. And don't forget that the love of money IS the root of all evil.
People who worship money cannot be Christians, no matter how much they would wish to be.
Remember why you're marrying her (Score:3, Insightful)
As a FEMALE geek who met her husband via Slashdot, there are a few things which have been said over and over, but they're important.
-- You're not that good of a liar. Therefore, if something is bothering you, you can try to hide it in order to spare your partner's feelings, but bottom line, just as you're not that good of a liar, your partner isn't stupid. So just get it out, it's easier and quicker and will result in fewer hurt feelings.
-- Realize that no matter how geeky you both are, you are different. Different things cause us to be stressed, and one of the important components of a relationship is realizing what things won't cause panic in yourself but will in your spouse and proactively helping your spouse through that.
-- Most importantly, remember why you're marrying her. Not only do you have lust for her, and love for her, you LIKE her as a person. You find her beautiful, brilliant, funny. So when she's left her dirty dishes in the sink for the millionth time in favour of reading a book, shake your head and smile, because that's part of who she is. Just like how she's going to tolerate how stinky you get during your WoW binges. Yes, these things are minor annoyances, and over time, she'll realize she can do the dishes and THEN read, and you'll make sure to shower prior to that huge raid, but don't let the little things get in the way of that most important thing. There's a reason you're marrying her, because you like her, love her, feel lust for her. Don't ever forget that.
Far too many marriages fail, and while people cite many things, it often boils down to one or both partners in the marriage just plain not being NICE to the person they claim to love.
Re:August (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep -
Rule 1: She is always right, you are always wrong.
Just simply say "Yes dear" and move on.
Rule 2: See Rule 1
Rule 3: How did you get here??? Go back to Rule 1 NOW!
Re:August (Score:2, Insightful)
Arguments and other stuff (Score:3, Insightful)
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
The reason that is insightful is because in a relationship most arguments are not about facts - they are about feelings. If you "win" an argument over feelings, you are basically saying 'your feelings are worth less than mine'. It's ok to stand your ground when it is truly important but for $diety's sake, pick your battles. Do NOT let your ego get in the way of what's really important to you, which *should* be each other. You are going to fight from time to time but why fight over anything you don't really care about? It is ok to point out to your wife that her behavior has hurt your feelings and, believe it or not, most women respond very well to such an admission. If you know you aren't being rational but you feel strongly about some non-critical thing anyway, acknowledge that and *ask* for your spouse to cut you some slack. Usually they will unless you are really being ridiculous.
Some other stuff:
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
I've known my wife for 20 years. Yeah, there's more than a little truth in it - but not for the reason people think. Argue the facts but take great care when arguing feelings. Most guys seem to have trouble separating the two.
Re:August (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Money. The largest contributor to failed marriages. How are you going to deal with it? One bank account? One each? Three (two personal accounts and a shared account for shared expenses)? Remember that it's important for each of you to be able to spend some discretionary money on things like coffee, lunch and a more substantial amount on gifts. No one likes to have to ask for money each week. And do you really want to have to ask for $200? "What do you need it for?" "Oh, I wanted to get you those earrings you wanted as a surprise birthday gift." Discuss how you are going to deal with major expenses. If you buy a house, are you going to spend every last bit of your discretionary income to get the fancier house? Or are you going to not exceed 30% of your income so that you still have some breathing room? How much will you save every month? What if someone wants to go to school or quit work to take care of a baby? These are the things that kill a marriage later. E.g. Couple buys expensive house. Can't afford to save any money. Husband continues to charge expensive toys for himself because he feels "poor" if he doesn't. Wife is exasperated. Husband must work overtime every chance he gets, so he feels exasperated too. Both wonder if they married the right person.
2) Kids. Don't say you want them if you don't. Be honest now or miserable later. How do you want to raise them? Do you want a parent to be able to stay home and raise them? Are you willing and able to make those sacrifices? When do you want to have them? Are you willing to spend thousands of dollars for fertility treatments if necessary? How will you discipline them? What kind of schooling? Will you raise them in a religion? Discuss this issue thoroughly and honestly.
3) Communication. Others have already said this one, but it is huge even if cliched. If you can't talk about things opening and honestly with each other, one or both of you are doomed to misery. Hopefully you already have this down if you're affianced, but lots don't. You've got to be able to bring up difficult topics with your spouse and have to know that your partner will be able to listen objectively and discuss rationally with you. If you're afraid to bring up a topic because of you're partner's reaction, that's bad and a potential trouble spot waiting to erupt. Likewise, if there are any topics that you have an unshakeable position on, you'd better be sure that your partner really agrees with you and isn't just afraid to disagree. At some point something (like a child) may make her stick up for her own beliefs which end up diametrically opposed to yours. This usually ends badly.
Re:NLP Alternatives (Score:5, Insightful)
I would add some more -- the big relationship breakers:
#1: Don't cheat. This sounds obvious, but...
#2: Don't think that you could never cheat. Cheating in marriage is incredibly common, and most people who ended up cheating were people who thought that they could never cheat on their spouse. Recognizing that humans are hardwired to be at risk for cheating, that humans are still capable of falling deeply in love with someone other than their spouse during marriage, is the first step toward prevention. The second step is if you develop feelings toward someone else or someone else develops feelings toward you, end contact with that person immediately. The absolute worst thing you can do is to discuss your feelings with them; that will only amplify the feelings, especially if they reciprocate.
#3: Avoid spouse-approved sexual experimentation involving others (X-somes, etc) and so-called "open relationships". They impose too great of a risk for devolving into emotional attachments with the others that can strain the original relationship or unintentionally causing resent by your partner, even when both parties begin by insisting that they're okay with it. Follow the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
#4: Stay in tune with your spouse's needs. Absolutely do NOT expect that this will just happen on its own. Talk with your spouse at least once a month about their feelings, whether they're happy with their life, etc. It's an awkward topic to bring up, so most people just avoid it -- but that just leads to people suppressing the things that they're unhappy with. And when they're not having a need met by the relationship, they're at risk for turning elsewhere to get that need met. Don't let these conversations lapse as the relationship goes on; they become more important with time, not less!
#5: Help your spouse stay in touch with your needs. Don't pester, and be very gentle about it, but if you have a long-running issue, bring it up. If it's a sensitive subject, use extra caution when talking about it. However, don't let resentment on some issue fester inside of you.
#6: Money is the root of all evil. In most divorces, money is at least a partial cause. In particular, the issue is debt. Buy a smaller home, fewer cars, take fewer vacations, etc than you think you can afford, keep off of ebay, etc, and you'll relieve a lot of that potential monetary strain by keeping your debt levels low to begin with. The most stressful situation is when you're already deep in debt and you find that you need something expensive, be it replacing an air conditioner, medical bills, or whatnot.
Best of luck!
Start with the end in mind (Score:2, Insightful)
This is not cynical... really.
As someone currently going through a divorce (mostly amicable), I have come to the conclusion that starting at the end can be very instructional. Sit down and write your separation agreement. Who gets what part of the pension/401k/RRSPs etc. Who gets the house, does the house get sold? Who gets spousal support and with whom will the children live. Set aside $20,000 for lawyers if you have a small agreement and set aside $50,000 and 4 years for big disagreements. And yes, this is money that you will never see again, and gains you very little.
Write down moving restrictions around children, this means that you probably can't easily leave the city you separate in because it is unlikely that your children will want your near, and you will want to be near your children.
Set aside an extra $20,000 dollars for extra transportation since you won't be sharing a vehicle any longer.
If you make more than your spouse, how much will you pay in spousal support. Look forward to a dramatically reduced lifestyle, since about 1/2 of your pay will no longer be yours for at least the first year of separation and couple of years of spousal support.
Set aside money for your mid-life crisis. It really doesn't matter how much, but make sure it is a percentage of your current gross, and expect you both to spend it between your 34th and 44th years.. say 10% of gross for four years. This is valid for those getting a divorce or not.
Set aside now, $4000/year for couples/your counseling to help you deal with the grief of the failed relationship/ job/ life you will experience.
And finally, write up a prenuptial agreement with a lawyer now. Both of you. Pay a lawyer to help you both write it. Marriages are expenses, divorces are an endless expense, know the risks.
Oh.. and Congratulations!! *throws rice*
p.s. If you read this and say "oh.. this doesn't apply to us" think again.
From a Female's Perspective (Score:2, Insightful)
Did I mention communication? I can't stress how important it is to talk.
Couple easy suggestions (Score:2, Insightful)
(Based on my nine-year marriage to a wonderful anime geek, and observation of other couples)
Re:Forget the books (Score:3, Insightful)
Just as long as you don't fork the project. That will cause no ends of problems.
Re:August (Score:3, Insightful)
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Read this guy's comment [slashdot.org]. He explained it well.
The problem is that you're misunderstanding "don't go to bed angry." The point isn't, "Keep talking about it till you resolve the problem." The point is, stop, take stock, let go of the angry feeling, and commit to working it out together later.
Of course, it'll help resolve the argument if you don't wait for bedtime to do this. Make it part of your approach to every argument, as soon as you realize that you're letting anger get the best of you.
Disclaimer: I've never been married. My apologies if I'm oversimplifying because of that. But this seems like a pretty wise general principle, at least.
Argh .... (Score:3, Insightful)
The only valid advice is that there is no valid advice.
People are not machines, you can't open a book, like if it was a manual, and find all the pearls of wisdom there.
Marriage is like any other human relationship (really) and for that reason no amount of advice will prepare you about how to progress that relationship.
Stop reading, start thinking and feeling.
Seriously? (Score:2, Insightful)
The Five Rules of Marriage (Score:2, Insightful)
1. Determine what you each like and do at least some of that each week.
2. Determine what you like doing together and do at least some of that each week.
3. Make sure finances don't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
4. Make sure housework doesn't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
5. If something changes, find an equitable solution together and stick to it.
There. That's it. This has served me and my wife for 9 years and counting.
Re:Honestly: be honest, and stick together as a te (Score:4, Insightful)
White lies are what stupid people tell because they can't figure out how to tell truth gently.
Do you love that (really ugly fucking sweater) I gave you? Not really, grandmother, but I love you!
What do you think of (outfit that accentuates every single flaw of a person's figure)? You know I love the way you look, but this outfit doesn't really seem to suit your look.
At work they made me so mad I (did something really childish in response to a stupid coworker) - what do you think? It's great that you stand up for yourself - you always have a plan. What is your plan for handling the blowback if any of those idiots get upset?
All of those are honest but they are said in a way that is kind and speaks to the core issue. Allowing someone to look like a fool when they were counting on you for honesty is incredibly cruel.