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Comments: 233 +- Technology: Google Brings SVG Support To IE on Saturday August 22, @09:10AM
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Soulskill
on Saturday August 22, @09:10AM
from the quickest-way-to-get-something-done dept.
from the quickest-way-to-get-something-done dept.
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stelt writes "Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) is in most graphical tools. It is used heavily in many big projects, such as KDE and Wikipedia. But Internet Explorer's lack of built-in support for SVG was keeping it away from mainstream use on the web. Google is fixing that now with a JavaScript drop-in named SVGWeb. They've posted a quick, one-minute overview, a longer and more detailed presentation, and you can read about it on the project page."
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Submission: Google brings SVG support to IE by Anonymous Coward
Developers: Google To Host International SVG Conference 38 comments
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Incompatibility Problems (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Incompatibility Problems (Score:4, Insightful)
How long before a new version of IE develops incompatibility problems with this extension?
How long until Google or someone else hacks around this?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
How long until Google or someone else hacks around this?
Given how often Microsoft updates IE for major changes *cough*, I'd say this won't be a problem, no.
IE 7 did minor but important changes, and IE 8 is something like an exception. Otherwise I think the lastr major engine/standards update was with, uh, IE 4?
IE 8 is MS trying desperately to hang on when browser benchmarking is this moments hot topic, with the competing browsers pushing new version with higher and higher benchmark scores. They have never release a follow-up browser so quickly before. There's nothing new and of value in IE 8 that hasn't already been seen in other browsers. What goes for IE 7, well let's be honest here, it can't be compared to IE 6 as calling IE 6 a browser should be prohibited by law.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be easier for them to just add SVG support.
Can we get rid of IE already, please? Just stop caring about it, and use open standards. If they won't adapt, tough luck.
Re:Incompatibility Problems (Score:5, Insightful)
I completely understand your hate of IE...I can't tell you how many times I've had to go "fix" my website designs because of IE6...it drives me completely insane. On the other hand, you simply cannot ignore these things. Being a good web designer means you unfortunately need to compensate.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There are plenty of free libraries you can use to retain IE6 compatibility with your website. Yes it's quirky and a pain in the ass but if you can't offer at least basic functionality for IE6 users then you're doing something wrong. The anti-IE6 movement just means that there are a lot of developers out there who are too lazy or inexperienced to deal with an older browser. They should take more pride in their work IMHO.
Supporting IE6 means withholding features (Score:5, Insightful)
Even supporting IE at all means withholding features. That can make sense for supporting IE 7/8, which hold about 40% of the browser market.
IE6 only holds about 15% of the browser market, and requires extreme measures to support. If Google, a 150 billion dollar corporation, can't be bothered to support it in something as simple as a webmail client or video portal, why should the little guy struggle to support it in a complex web app?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Incompatibility Problems (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll agree you don't want to alienate your audience just because they're using a broken browser, but that is not what being a "good" web designer is about.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, you simply cannot ignore these things. Being a good web designer means you unfortunately need to compensate.
That depends on what audience you're targeting. If you're building a website for a government institution, then yes, you need to support IE, including IE6. If, on the other hand, you have commercial considerations, and can deliver a real *web app* by dropping IE, then you have some thinking to do. Maybe you could just drop IE6 -- if youtube can do it then it's probably a safe move. But if you know that you can provide a really significant improvement in usability by supporting only modern/compliant browsers
Re:Incompatibility Problems (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, I once worked on a site, where we got 16 million visits *a day*! And that's only for the top country.
And your attitude is the very reason we are in this situation.
You always cave in, when you fear you could lose some users. It's so pathetic.
No, don't make links non-underlined! We will lose users!
No, don't stop supporting that browser! We will lose users!
No, don't change the design! We will lose users!
etc, etc, etc.
It's the knock-out argument for all change.
And while others innovate, you keep running behind them, always trying to catch up.
While your user base turns into the most stubborn, spoiled and dumb that is possible.
They will totally dominate you instead of you dominating them.
If you ever read something about leadership, you will understand, that you can only lead, if you do what *you* want, and stand behind that, not caring what the mob/crowd thinks.
Because they will *want* to follow you, if you are a role model, *knowing* what is right.
Of course this won't give you *all* users. Because when you're greedy and want them all, it's pretty much guaranteed that you will be left with even less than if you would have just let those follow you, that want you for what you are.
Yes, it's the same thing as in love and friendship relationships.
And as always, this time it's the leaders again, who will drop support for the IE first. Those sites, where people don't go because the sites are trying to do it right for everybody, but because they're so cool and worth so much to them, that people will do anything to still be able to use their site.
And soon you will follow them. When you notice that half your user base is already lost to them.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I once worked on a site, where we got 16 million visits *a day*!
Which is what your employer is paying you to deliver.
If those numbers go down because you are too "principled" to support IE - he will find someone a tad more flexible.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ha. You have NO idea!
First of all, that company is dead and gone, because they did what they did. So yeah, very wise of them... ^^
Second, it's not the page views. It's the clicks on ads that are worth money. Page views *cost* money!
My former employer wanted money. Not page views per se.
Third, making stuff run in IE took so much time, that by stopping to do it, we would actually have made money!
Fourth, I left the company to found my own, because I found them to be literally to fuckin' stupid to understand th
Give me a break (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, I once worked on a site, where we got 16 million visits *a day*! And that's only for the top country.
Yeah, we've all "worked on" big sites. It's quite another thing to be financially accountable for a big site. You'll find it's a little less easy to cast away 10% of your users overnight when your profit margin is only 1% to 3%.
The proper way to build a big site is to build to standards and then add exception handling for any significant user bases. Over time some of these will shrink below the "who cares" limit and you can get rid of that exception. Obviously those limits will vary per site and audience.
Yo
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I'm totally down with that... but my boss wouldn't be. I still have to make sure our sites work in IE and FF. :(
Re: (Score:2)
A more accurate question would be, "How long until Microsoft enforces incompatibility with the web again?"
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ok, now try READING the summary instead of skimming it.
They're saying IE's lack of built-in support for SVG was keeping SVG from mainstream use.
Re:Incompatibility Problems (Score:5, Informative)
This has the potential to do things like allow you to use the HTML5 video tag indiscriminately, and have it render natively where it's supported, and have it default to Flash where it's not. And finally, if you've ever done a lot of work with SVG, you'd notice that the Adobe plugin often renders scenes in drastically different ways than native implementations. Basically, it was to SVG what IE6 was to the web: a broken implementation. Google's project is still in it's early incarnation and already surpasses the Adobe plugin. Hopefully in the next year or so, it'll match native implementations well enough to allow web developers to use SVG and SMIL, and not have to worry about legacy browser compatibility.
And if you'd watched the one minute video running through it, you'd know most of this
Parent
Re:Incompatibility Problems (Score:5, Informative)
Welcome to 2009, IE has ~60% usage and falling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They have over 90% of the market?
90%? What? That's a bit odd. Really, it's <70% and dropping like a rock.
See for yourself here [wikimedia.org]. (Requires SVG-capable browser.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"No significant change"? WTH.
I guess that blue line may look "level" if a person doesn't think about it much.
But upon closer inspection you'll realize that it shows an 8% drop over the year. The same happened in 2007-2008. Just three years more of that kind of drop and you'll lose another quarter of the market.
No, IE doesn't have 90% as GP tried to say. And IE is in fact dropping like a rock [wikipedia.org] (PNG version for those with outdated browsers).
People are learning that IE just isn't cool anymore. And I'm glad
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
good (Score:2)
Now Microsoft doesn't need to do it anymore. Is this a good thing then? Nice move on Google's part though.
Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)
Now Microsoft doesn't need to do it anymore. Is this a good thing then? Nice move on Google's part though.
It's a bad thing that Google needs to fix basic functionality in a competitor's product. But it shows one more time why Google is good and why Microsoft is mediocre.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As a website builder, svg is more then just pictures, if i had it available to me i would create entire websites using it. ( xhtml+svg )
why?
because then i can finally present people with websites that look exactly the same everywhere and fill your entire browser screen.
dynamic design, dynamic fonts, dynamic everything. no more fixed layout design.
While i don't thing this new plugin is going to be the holy grail, it love to see them push in the right direction :)
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Lame. (Score:5, Informative)
From the project page: "No downloads or plugins are necessary other than Flash ..."
Re:Lame. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Lame. (Score:5, Funny)
Google: Please release V8 as a plugin for IE, along with CSS compatibility. Actually, scratch that -- please release Chrome as a plugin for IE.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I am part of the 95% of users with Flash, but I don't like it. I use Firefox, so I shouldn't have to enable Flash to view SVG documents, but the same could be said for watching videos and navigating a website.
My concern is that many websites that use SVG will require Flash on all browsers, not just the ones using IE.
Re:Lame. (Score:4, Informative)
My concern is that many websites that use SVG will require Flash on all browsers, not just the ones using IE.
Quote from the quick start:
You can override this manually, but why would anyone do that for other purposes than debugging...?
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Well according to Adobe (Yes, Adobe) Flash Content works on 99% of the browsers. I imagine Slashdotters to be the 1 remaining percent though =D
Re: (Score:2)
Just click on the yellow bar that's saying...
"DON'T click herE!1! It could KILL your compuTER!!!!1!!!!1"
That's what they usually do to install the latest WinAntivirus, so they should be able to install plugins the same way.... :-)
Re: (Score:2)
From the project page: "No downloads or plugins are necessary other than Flash ..."
Which means that the SVG support could just as well be integrated into Flash itself - the one plug-in every browser must support.
No matter how loudly the geek in the back row moans and groans in complaint.
Funny thing (Score:2, Interesting)
IE used to have SVG support via an Adobe plugin. Then they bought the Flash crap and suddenly the SVG plugin went away. Can't have competition I guess.
Re:Funny thing (Score:5, Insightful)
That plugin was always slow and only supported a very limited subset of svg.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
The Adobe Flash plug-in was terrible. I had to use it when I was testing a SVG drawing ap. One problem noted was that nothing showed up until it was entirely loaded. For larger images, this was frustrating, as it made it slower than Flash.
I wish SVG would have taken off, but sadly, it didn't.
Good news for Microsoft (Score:5, Funny)
But Internet Explorer's lack of built-in support for SVG was keeping it away from mainstream use on the web.
Yes! Internet Explorer may finally be ready for mainstream use.
Flash-based... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not bad performance, and useful for applets, but you don't want to use it for layout unless having dozens of little flash applets all over the page turns you on.
Could this be ... (Score:2, Insightful)
An interesting link.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Despite the video being very very dry, there was an interesting link in the middle of the presentation: http://downloadstats.mozilla.com/ [mozilla.com]
That site features real time download statistics for FF3.5. The interesting part is, that the map at the top is rendered in real SVG combined with canvas (for the dots).
About this flash based library: it's strange. At the demo page the native rendering of SVG failed and only the flash version worked on my FF 3.0.x.. Not a problem with my browser though, as the site I mentioned at the top as well as Wikipedia SVG's work fine. Something is not right with this library, but interesting non the less.
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Interestingly enough, the "use your mouse to zoom" on that map does not zoom within Google Chrome.
Becoming AOL (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft is becoming AOL. A crappy, proprietary, expensive, unreliable impediment to getting onto the internet. Their applications have plateaued, and open-source desktop and web-based competitors are improving rapidly. They'll hang on longer, but they've begun their long decline.
Get a clue (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft is becoming AOL. A crappy, proprietary, expensive, unreliable impediment to getting onto the internet. Their applications have plateaued, and open-source desktop and web-based competitors are improving rapidly. They'll hang on longer, but they've begun their long decline.
The true Slashdot geek can't post about Microsoft without his brain dissolving into mush. Fantasy rules and reality is an intrusion.
Listen to one of your own:
And then there's Microsoft. The company prints billions of dollars wort
Know your user base (Score:3, Interesting)
When discussions of supporting various versions of browsers come up, it is important to know what browsers are actually visiting your site. Earlier this year IE6 users to one of my sites dipped below 10%. Since then, it has now been ~3% for the past month.
Now I no longer stress about IE6. I'll check it to make sure the site is at least functional and usable in IE6. But I no longer strive for pixel-perfect compatibility. It's simply not worth it.
You can spend the extra hours getting it to work for all browsers and end up using hacks and mangling your HTML/CSS to do so, but if all of that work is only for a small percentage of your user base, it is not worth it.
No reason Microsoft couldn't do it (Score:4, Insightful)
SVG dosn't matter anymore. (Score:3, Interesting)
I liked SVG, back in 2004/05 I wrote an interactive map application using SVG and what's now known as AJAX in IE5.
I read that Adobe was on the standards commitee for SVG, and piled tons of unneeded crap into the spec to try and make it a 'Flash Killer', but once they aquired Macromedia they stopped caring... and they were the only one that did.
There may never be a full implementation of the SVG spec, it's just too cumbersome, and outdated at this point.
Re: (Score:2)
It doesn't work with Konqueror on my system (Debian AMD64 KDE 4.3)
I tried disabling netescape plugins so I could try native as well. No joy