Mozilla Slams Chrome Frame As "Browser Soup" 236
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kdawson
from the strange-bedfellows dept.
from the strange-bedfellows dept.
CWmike writes "Mozilla executives today took shots at Google for pitching its Chrome Frame plug-in as a solution to Internet Explorer's poor performance, with one arguing that Google's move will result in 'browser soup.' The Mozilla reaction puts the company that builds Firefox on the same side of the debate as rival Microsoft, which has also blasted Google over the plug-in. Mitchell Baker, the former CEO of Mozilla and currently the chairman of the Mozilla Foundation, said in a blog post, 'The overall effects of Chrome Frame are undesirable. I predict positive results will not be enduring and — and to the extent it is adopted — Chrome Frame will end in growing fragmentation and loss of control for most of us, including Web developers.' Baker says Chrome Frame's browser-in-a-browser will confuse users and render some of their familiar tools useless. 'Once your browser has fragmented into multiple rendering engines, it's very hard to manage information across Web sites. Some information will be manageable from the browser you use and some information from Chrome Frame. This defeats one of the most important ways in which a browser can help people manage their [Web] experience.'"
IE (Score:5, Interesting)
Baker says Chrome Frame's browser-in-a-browser will confuse users and render some of their familiar tools useless. Some information will be manageable from the browser you use and some information from Chrome Frame.
Interestingly, isn't this an exactly same issue with Firefox addons too? Some of them might create the same kind of incompabilities than Chrome Frame plugin does.
On that note, in my opinion Chrome Frame itself serve's little to none purpose. If you can install it, you could install the actual Chrome (or some other) browser aswell. Websites need to opt-in for using the Chrome Frame for rendering with a metatag, and I think Google will be lucky if even 1% add that tag.
Only good reason I've come across is the next note from the article
Specifically, said Google, it was pushing Chrome Frame because it decided it wasn't worth trying to make its new collaboration and communications tool, Google Wave, work with IE. Google developers spent "countless hours" on tweaking Wave for IE, but gave up.
Which does make sense. Users can use IE, but still get the Wave to work. But I except google to take more major approach about the plugin soon.
Important point (Score:5, Interesting)
A very important point. Those of us who build the web finally thought we were seeing some movement with the increasing adoption of Firefox (mainly) causing Microsoft to build better browsers in IE7, and more so, IE8. We really looked forward to moving from a development model where 50% of the time was spent building the site to standards, and 50% hacking for Internet Explorer.
Wouldn't it be less fragmentation? (Score:1, Interesting)
None of the engines in a browser (rendering, scripting, etc) should be relevant. They should all follow web standards. Sure it might break crap-tastic websites that use browser sniffing to try & server browser-specific content. But we already have that in javascript by detecting capabilities instead of using browser sniffing. By allowing this, it allows websitesï to force IE to behave like a standards compliant browser which will hopefully, in the long run, get rid of all the major IE vs. world hacks (and hopefully many of the inter-browser incompatibility checks).
Pot, kettle, black, Mozilla. Tsk, tsk. (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh boy. Here we go.
Mozilla drags IE into the future with Canvas element plugin [arstechnica.com]
Granted, Mozilla's technology doesn't do as much as Chrome Frame. It does less. But it introduced tag soup into IE. One can now, according to Mozilla's own damn hypocritic opinion because of a technological big brother envy, be sure of how IE render content.
"Once your browser has fragmented into multiple rendering engines, it's very hard to manage information across Web sites" - Mozilla
Oh, and how does adding canvas support reduce confusion when even more complete HTML 5 support won't?
But read on guys... It get funnier.
Ars Technica:
This Canvas plugin is only the first step toward bringing standards-based web technologies to Internet Explorer. Mozilla is working on a much more ambitious initiative called Screaming Monkey [mozilla.org] that will make it possible to plug Mozilla's entire next-generation JavaScript engine directly into Microsoft's web browser. If these plugins gain widespread acceptance, it will empower web developers and give them the ability to target web standards and not have to compensate as much for Internet Explorer's broken behavior.
Hahaha! I love this! Thanks for the laugh, Mozilla!
About time (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Important point (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:IE (Score:4, Interesting)
On that note, in my opinion Chrome Frame itself serve's little to none purpose. If you can install it, you could install the actual Chrome (or some other) browser aswell.
There are quite a few companies locked in to IE 6 right now due to requirements from internal applications. I think Chrome Frame would be pretty attractive in this sort of environment. Instead of spending money and resources upgrading your apps you can deploy CF on your desktops and give your users a browser that runs as IE 6 internally and doesn't suck otherwise.
It's also attractive to web developers. I added the CF meta tag to my site as soon as I heard about it. The fewer users using the IE 6 renderer the better.
Re:IE (Score:2, Interesting)
its what used to be known around here as a "signal11 post". first post some incoherent babble that's remotely ontopic and you have a guaranteed five.
Re:Important point (Score:1, Interesting)
you are an idiot
Re:"loss of control?" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:IE (Score:3, Interesting)
Situation last month: Standards Compliant browsers are in the minority. Horrible code hacks required to make things work on Internet Explorer
Situation now: Standards Compliant browsers still in the minority, plugin availible to make things work on Internet Explorer. Microsoft upset
Situation soon, if MS don't do anything: Standards Compliant browsers still in the minority, Google releases Wave and requests all IE users install their plugin, Internet Explorer becomes less stable as there are now TWO routes hackers can potentially take to hijack the browser.
Situation soon, if MS does something: Internet Explorer is made standards complient so that users can take advantage of the tech users want to use, else MS looses browser market share. Standards Compliant browsers are now Ubiquitous.
Economics (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong... I love open source. I love Firefox. I use both almost exclusively for work and for play. I know that Firefox is strictly superior in numerous ways to IE. That said, my company is heavily web-centric, and if Firefox has to lose some market share, even die out completely (which it won't... it's open source), in order for everybody to have a standards compliant browser, I say FINE. Besides the fact that we spend about 1/4 of our time coding specifically to IE, my next biggest opposition to IE is the fact that MS has it on lock-down... well, with this plugin MS has to share its control over IE with Google... if MS cuts out Google and this plugin doesn't work anymore, then guess what? IE doesn't work on any websites anymore, either. FAIL. Not to say that Google is perfect either, but I think an evil conspiracy between the two down the road is an unlikely scenario.
A web browser is ultimately just a means to an end. There are trillions of dollars tied up in companies who develop content for the web, and just a few companies who develop significant browsers for it. How many billions of dollars could be saved every year if we simply didn't have to worry about how badly IE sucks ass?
For the retards out there who still don't understand why this is the only logical position for anybody who isn't a browser developer, here's an exaggerated car analogy. Say Microsoft started making shitty cars, and Mozilla started making a better open source car... And then Google created a magical perpetual motion machine for Microsoft's cars which eliminated the need for any fuel and produced food for starving children as its only byproduct. Would we all be up in arms about "OH NOES everybody's gonna start using the M$ shit car!!!1111"? What is up with your priorities, Slashdot???
Re:Important point (Score:3, Interesting)
This has nothing to do wth Opera and Mozilla. If they support HTML5, canvas, CSS3 and have a good javascript engine, then they can just use that.
Chrome Frame solves one really big problem: IE. If you don't think IE is a problem, then you can ignore it. If you don't have anything to do with IE, then you can ignore it. If you hate supporting IE, then you can now ignore IE and tell IE users to install CF.
Face it, CF reduces fragmentaion. If you hate it so much, it's probably because you're in the Mozilla camp and you're upset you didn't think of it first. But as long as you stick to modern standards, there's no reason for you to emulate anyone, and you're free to completely ignore CF.