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Comments: 171 +- Technology: Can IBM Take On Google, Microsoft With iNotes? on Friday October 02, @02:25PM
Posted
by
ScuttleMonkey
on Friday October 02, @02:25PM
from the better-late-than-never-i-guess dept.
from the better-late-than-never-i-guess dept.
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CWmike writes to mention that IBM has launched LotusLive iNotes, a system designed to compete with GMail and Exchange that offers email, calendaring, and contact management. "Pricing starts at $3 per user per month, undercutting Google Apps Premier Edition, which costs $50 per user per year.
IBM is aiming the software at large enterprises that want to migrate an on-premise e-mail system to SaaS (software as a service), particularly for users who aren't tied to a desk, such as retail workers. It is also hoping to win business from smaller companies interested in on-demand software but with concerns about security and service outages, such as those suffered by Gmail in recent months. LotusLive iNotes is based on technology IBM purchased from the Hong Kong company Outblaze."
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If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:5, Insightful)
Lotus Notes, no way in hell will it succeed. Lotus Notes was pure crap, and I say that as an ex-Lotus employee.
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:5, Interesting)
Lotus Notes takes a very interesting approach to generic databases. I laud Lotus for their design philosophy and I know IBM has put a lot of work into it, but the implementation of Lotus Notes leaves a lot to be desired. Making all documents generic databases wasn't a bad idea.
This iNotes seems to be a subset of Lotus Notes functionality based on an all-new codebase. Probably a good thing.
Parent
Can IBM take on... oh, Lotus. No, it can't. (Score:2)
As soon as I saw the topic "Can IBM Take On Google, Microsoft With iNotes?", my first thought was: Is 'i' the new IBM euphemism for Lotus? Because, if it is, we don't need to go any further.
IBM can't take on Google and Microsoft with anything based on traditional Lotus Notes, because Lotus Notes is the only software worse than Microsoft Exchange Server, and the reason Google's enterprise services exist and are popular is specifically that it frees people from Lotus Notes and Exchange. If iNotes is anythin
Gmail:Exchange::iNotes:Lotus? (Score:3, Insightful)
What Gmail is to MS Exchange is what iNotes is to Lotus. It's a web interface for a lotus system.
Except that Gmail doesn't have the baggage of being associated with Microsoft or Lotus, and a name like "LotusLive iNotes" does. Even though they based it on Outblaze, if they put any Lotus back-end architecture into it since then, there's a good chance at it being a rolling failure waiting to happen. The luckiest thing that could happen to a LotusLive iNotes user is that it turns out the programmers have still kept it far away from any code from any other Lotus product whatsoever.
It's also racist (Score:4, Informative)
How about when you have a message selected (but not opened) and try to export it? Starts exporting the entire mailbox with no cancel.
I offer this poll, Why does Notes suck so much?
*Search don't search
*Sort don't sort
*Cut and Paste from a webpage means grab some coffee
*UI stands for User Interference
*Blazing Speed
*Hit Yes to send with comments, No to send without comments, and cancel to bring you back to this same dialog
*Contextual nonsense
*Reply All to "undisclosed recipients" discloses the undisclosed recipients
I could go on for days, but I just copied this text into Notes to try to spell check it. Time for coffee.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The only person I ever knew through work who committed suicide was a Lotus Notes administrator. Maybe it was just coincidental, but I'm just sayin'...
It's a sad but true story..
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:4, Informative)
Lotus Notes, no way in hell will it succeed. Lotus Notes was pure crap, and I say that as an ex-Lotus employee.
I second that, as a current IBM contractor (hence my anonymous cowardness) that's been inflicted with this sorry excuse of a mail system. How is it that IBM has the ONLY big name e-mail system that can't reliably deliver e-mail? Frankly, all their software is crap because IBM is all about getting it out in time for the quarterlies, regardless of quality. I'm really getting tired of shipping off untested software to customers.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
they don't reliably deliver mail.
They're the only ones who deliver IBM brand DRM in the form of onerous document control/locking/deletion. This is why enterprise likes it.
Meanwhile, it's a turd of a program and our workplace is thankfully moving to allow Thunderbird soon.
Re: (Score:2)
Lotus was remakably innovative... 20 year ago. And then they stopped innovating. Heck they stopped stealing others good ideas even.
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:5, Informative)
>> Lotus Notes was pure crap, and I say that as an ex-Lotus employee.
Actually, Lotus Notes is pure crap. I say that as a current Lotus Notes user. It's a reason unto itself to find a new employer.
Two simple examples:
- we just "upgraded" to v8.5. It takes 127 seconds to start up. It takes 38 seconds more to show me my inbox. It takes 47 seconds to bring up the editor to reply to the first mail of the day. This is all on a fairly new Dell D630 laptop.
- Sort by subject: "Hello world" does not get sorted with "Re: Hello World", nor with "Fw: Hello World". All your "Re:"s and "Fw:"s get sorted together.
There are many more.
MadCow.
Parent
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Lotus 123 is pure crap, too. Long ago, before IBM got hold of it, it was a good, arguably the best, spreadsheet. But last year I started getting Lotus spreadsheets, so I had them get me a copy (I have to use Quattro and Excel as well). The damned peogram loaded a ton of crap, and had the ton of crap loaded on startup, even though I only use the spreadsheet portion and then only once every few months.
I had to do a lot of googling to find out how to make the crap stop starting at startup. It wanted to become
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:5, Informative)
Two simple examples: - we just "upgraded" to v8.5. It takes 127 seconds to start up. It takes 38 seconds more to show me my inbox. It takes 47 seconds to bring up the editor to reply to the first mail of the day. This is all on a fairly new Dell D630 laptop.
You're kidding me, right? Or you're making up numbers. Or you are running the Windows version amid the antivirus scans...
Linux box, Fedora 11, T60p, 5400rpm drive - hardly a world beater laptop these days. Times are all intervals.
Release 8.5 Revision 20081211.1925 (Release 8.5) Standard Configuration
So either you've got the CPU clocked down or something is eating your cycles. I hardly hold Lotus Notes in high regard but its improved performance significantly in recent releases.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Well, maybe my corporate IT dept. has borked their standard image, but those are real timed numbers. After all, I have little else I can do with my computer while waiting. :)
Nothing else running, fresh boot (after waiting for all other startup crap to finish). Windows XP professional, 2GB RAM, etc., etc.
Our older version wasn't great (no sort-on-subject at all), but easily 3x faster.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"maybe my corporate IT dept. has borked their standard image"
Not exactly, but it is they're fault. Here's the scoop...
1) The entire Notes 8.x codestream is now an Eclipse RCP application.
2) Eclipse is incredibly powerful and flexible. It's also a huge collection of JAR files that have to be unzipped to run.
3) You anti-virus software is probably configured to scan every one of those JARs every time they're accessed.
4) Like every Windows machine on the planet, your drive is probably also highly fragmented.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Lotus Notes isn't an email program. It's an application development platform with multiple backend databases, networking interfaces plus a scripting language, a plugin system and a ton of other stuff. That it reads and writes email is just proof of JWZ's assertion.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That's another good example of why you need training, but it's not a problem with Notes. Google uses labels the same way Notes uses Folders and so you can make the exact same mistake there. You just don't see as many people hating on GMail because a) it's free and b) their employer didn't tell them to use it (though both of those are syarting to change).
There's nothing wrong with the approach with views and tags, just something with the not educating your staff in how to safely save their messages.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I keep an XP virtual machine solely for Lotus Notes. When I turn on my computer, It takes less time to resume the VM than it does to start up Lotus Notes fresh. Also, when Lotus Notes crashes (which we know it *never* does) I don't have to restart my computer to coax it into working again.
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:4, Insightful)
Google brings out Wave and IBM clones Gmail?
Parent
Re:If LotusLive iNotes is in any way based on (Score:5, Informative)
LotusLive iNotes screenshot: https://www.lotuslive.com/en/services/inotes [lotuslive.com]
Lotus iNotes screenshot: http://www.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/inotes [ibm.com]
Parent
SaaS? Try SoaS! (Score:5, Funny)
Lotus Notes is closer to Shit on a Shingle than it is a service.
-Rick
Re: (Score:2)
Costs Less, But... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
It's about Local Control (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Storing confidential data in the "cloud" (how I hate that term) is a ...
Lots of users say they hate using the term "the cloud", but they continue to use it anyway. Why not just say "other peoples servers"?
Re: (Score:2)
Lots of users say they hate using the term "the cloud", but they continue to use it anyway. Why not just say "other peoples servers"?
Ignorance and laziness. People say "the cloud" because 1) they don't have a clue what it is, except that it's a buzzword that people think you're smart if you use and 2) "the cloud" has two syllables while "other peoples servers" has six. Maybe we should start a new acronym -- OPS?
"What's 'OPS'?"
Nobody is going to ask this, any more than they asked what the cloud was; they're
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
While you're somewhat correct, I don't think your prediction will pan out. I think the cloud will win eventually due to factors such as:
1) Cost. This drives all sorts of non-logical decisions every day.
2) Availability. An increasingly-mobile work force is really going to want this. While there are solutions (Blackberry), they don't often keep pace with trends (iPhone) whereas an online application could be far more mobile.
3) Security. If/when your internal servers are breached, your rear-end is on the
Re:It's about Local Control (Score:5, Informative)
Since you can get Google on premise now, as well as this I would say your argument is worthless
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
This will not take over the role of Exchange ...
Perhaps not, but that's not to say Exchange is without problems of its own.
The infamous case of lost Whitehouse emails during the term of GWB, for example, occurred after the IT folks successfully transitioned from Notes to Exchange. During the subcommittee hearings on the foulups (and continuing problems resurrecting the lost emails), the head of IT authoritatively pronounced Notes as "obsolete technology" when asked about the reason for the transition. The
Reminds me of a certain Redmond Company... (Score:4, Interesting)
Will iNotes win? (Score:2)
Can IBM Take On Google, Microsoft With iNotes?
No, because they branded it Lotus, thereby invoking a ton of dreadful baggage. If they'd called it some else, they might have had a chance.
P.S. Why is Slashdot slower than an old age pensioner snail crawling up a cliff covered in wet tar today? And why did Slashdot totally ignore the Google outage a week or so back?
P.P.S. From the article:
It's unlikely that IBM's pricing strategy will cause competitors to lower fees for their offerings, according to Cain. For one thing, Microsoft already has a $2 per month Exchange Online option called "Deskless Worker," Cain noted.
Re: (Score:2)
Referring back to the "Diskless Workstation", I can already see what this is going to get nicknamed as...
Haha, Have you ever used lotus notes? (Score:2, Interesting)
Oooh! I Have a Slogan For Them! (Score:3, Funny)
I'm sure it'll be an instant hit!
Re: (Score:2)
So what's with the iCopy Apple? (Score:3)
n/t
Bwahahhahahahahah (Score:5, Insightful)
. . .hah haha hah hah.
Oh that was good.
Lotus Notes, iNotes, and all over it's incarnations is the most convoluted and insane system I've ever used (and this is after 4 years of admining a 400+ user Lotus Domino server). I've often heard the joke that Emacs would be a great OS if only it included a decent text editor. I've never felt it applied since I actually like emacs for text editing, but boy does the same type of line apply to Notes: it'd be a great OS if only it included a decent email client.
Re: (Score:2)
I've never felt it applied since I actually like emacs for text editing, but boy does the same type of line apply to Notes: it'd be a great OS if only it included a decent email client.
That'd be like what, Windows ME with a decent email client?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Outages (Score:2)
with concerns about security and service outages, such as those suffered by Gmail in recent months
They better be able to offer guarantees stronger than Google's. I'm not sure what Gmail's Premier outage guarantees are, but for a new-comer to offer better would be surprising.
Also, $36 vs $50. $14 a year difference hardly justifies any potential UI frustration or maturity of product problems this may have.
And if that doesn't work... (Score:4, Funny)
...we'll call it eLotusLive iNotes. Dot com.
Fave Lotus Notes feature (Score:4, Funny)
The "you have new email" icon looks more like you have a new burrito waiting. Seriously, who designed this thing? It still looks like the Lotus Notes I used back in '95 with the primitive looking GUI.
Re:Fave Lotus Notes feature (Score:4, Informative)
The "you have new email" icon looks more like you have a new burrito waiting.
Dude, if I had a burrito for every new mail I got, I'd be happy...
Parent
Cell phones (Score:4, Insightful)
not much hope, i am afraid (Score:2)
Google vs. Lotus service outages? (Score:2)
Let's see: This IBM guy in the article is making noise about Google's uptime record versus "what you'd expect from IBM in terms of security, reliability and privacy" with Lotus Notes branded products? Wow. It's like he actually aimed before he shot himself in the foot.
How can you fail to predict a market IN THE PAST? (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's something to think about, to all of you declaring that Notes is crap.
The real enterprise class messaging world is split about in half between using Microsoft Exchange on the back end and using Lotus Domino on the back end. Different analysts will split it in different places, and different parts of the world will also vary the numbers a bit, but generally the market for enterprise messaging is about split in half with everyone else taking up a very small percentage.
So, the product that you're calling "absolute crap" seems to be one of the few in the software industry holding its own against a relentless Microsoft push for years on end. Why is that? The answer is because it is VERY good at doing what it does -- which is providing a messaging platform that is manageable and secure across really large enterprises with tens or hundreds of thousands of users.
Lots of products are better than Notes or Domino at one or two things, but no product has the breadth and scope of its features in an enterprise manageable application server. The closest thing to it would be an entire linux distro, with various packages performing roles similar to the tasks on a Domino server. It's not a great match up but it's a hell of a lot closer than comparing it to "Gmail" which is pretty good for EMAIL or to Exchange. Maybe if you compared it to Exchange + Outlook + Sharepoint + SQL Server + Office + Visual Studio. That's a fairly expensive comparison and totally unmanageable to deploy across tens of thousands of users.
What amazes me are the predictions of failure. Hello? It already succeeded! It makes a TON of money and keeps a LOT of people employed. I can certainly understand if you don't LIKE the product. There are things that are long overdue to be overhauled, for sure. Predicting the failure of something that has already succeeded though -- that's fairly moronic.
As someone pointed out, however, LotusLive iNotes is not Notes, not Domino based iNotes (which has won awards, by the way, for its user interface), but is in fact an entirely different platform specifically built to be a hosted mail environment that has nothing to do with the old Lotus Notes or the Domino server. So far, I don't recommend it.