Toyotas Suddenly Accelerate; Owners Up In Arms 1146
cyclocommuter writes "Some Toyota owners are up in arms as they suspect that accidents have been caused by some kind of glitch in the electronic computer system used in Toyotas that controls the throttle. Refusing to accept the explanation of Toyota and the federal government (it involves the driver's-side floor mat), hundreds of Toyota owners are in rebellion after a series of accidents caused by what they call 'runaway cars.' Four people have died." The article notes: "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has done six separate investigations of such acceleration surges in Toyotas since 2003 and found no defect in Toyota's electronics."
God damn it this again (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:3, Informative)
You don't lose power assisted braking or steering as long as the engine is turning. If you turn an engine off as it is running full throttle I guarantee it will diesel along for a while, enough time to slow the car even without power assisted braking.
Power assist brakes have to be able to stop a car even with the engine is not turning. FHSA rules.
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:2, Informative)
true, but tapping the power button while going over 5MPH automatically shifts the car into N
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:3, Informative)
Clicking through a couple links on the article gets you to a video on what to do.
Put the car into neutral first. Then apply the brakes and come to a stop as you would for any other serious problem with your car. Do not turn off the engine until you have come to a complete stop, or else you lose all your power assists and that is kind of bad. I've had power steering suddenly fail on me. It is not easy to drive a car in that condition, and trying to drive it in an emergency situation? Yeah, not something I'd recommend if you can help it.
Even automatics can do this. The video did note that neutral isn't used often, so people might not be familiar enough with their transmission controls to quickly find it, so check the control, find where it is and how to shift to it quickly.
Turning off the engine should basically be a last resort to be used only if the transmission won't go to neutral. You're probably out a few grand if your car is fucked this badly.
Re:PEBAAC (Score:5, Informative)
Throttle by wire has been proven to be extremely responsive. More importantly, it is part of a closed-loop operation, whereby the ECU can properly evaluate requested levels versus actual in pretty much everything. If the fuel line is pinched, for example, flooring it would cause devastating detonation, EXCEPT in "by wire". Once the fuel present was mismatched to the air, the ECU would force the throttle to close somewhat, regardless of pedal position. The exception is in many cases of a wide open throttle request, when some output levels like fuel overrich are ignored, and the ECU uses an internal map of what "should be going in and out, given the max power request.
It is exceedingly easy to test the Throttle Positioning Sensor in modern vehicles. In fact, your ECU probably tests idle throttle position every time you turn the key on for a while without staring the engine. The ECU will also log 'implausible signal' for TPS that get an out of range reading, or inconsistent reading throughout the range.
Note: This information was gathered while researching diagnosing my personal car, a B5 Audi S4. It is a summary, not the automotive gospel.
This sounds like people getting paid for being stupid. I do not approve, but who am I, eh?
Re:Same thing happend to Audi a few years ago (Score:5, Informative)
In the case of the state trooper, witnesses did report that the brakes were on fire as he went by.
I'm presuming not so much actual flames as burned up brake pads billowing smoke.
Reproducible testcase (Score:3, Informative)
It's very difficult to diagnose problems like these without a reproducible testcase. It sounds like you've stumbled upon one. You should talk to your dealer. Either:
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:1, Informative)
Wheel Rotation...
as long as you know your wheel radius and RPM you can calculate Distance
(Pi*(Wheel Radius))^2 * RPM * Time = Distance.
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:3, Informative)
You should consider contacting NHTSA about this.
Go to the ABC site - watch video (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:0, Informative)
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:4, Informative)
The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.
As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.
"I don't think you can stop a car going 120 mph and an engine at full throttle without power assist," said Ditlow, the safety center director.
"There's a standard where you have to be able to stop the car without power-assisted brakes, but obviously I don't think it includes situations where the throttle is wide open," he added.
Drivers in other crashes also found it difficult to rein in a runaway Toyota. Guadalupe Gomez of Redwood City said he was held hostage for 20 miles on a Bay Area freeway by a 2007 Camry traveling more than 100 mph.
Gomez was unable to turn off the engine or shift into neutral and then burned out his brakes before slamming into another car and killing that driver, said attorney Louis Franecke, who represented that victim's family.
I also think not... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I hate to be mean about a possibly serious issu (Score:3, Informative)
One thing I haven't understood on the Prius floor mats. I don't know if this is on the newer models or not but the older sedans have a clip that prevents them from skidding up into the pedal. There has not been any reports of the retaining clip breaking, only the mats slid. I wonder if this is an issue on only newer ones.
For a picture of the hole for the carpet clip;
http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/Toyota-floor-mat-proper-installation.jpg [boston.com]
I've never had my mat come lose. Due to the shape shown in the photo, it can't get in the way unless it comes lose. If it comes lose, I'll remove it.
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:5, Informative)
How do you think the speedometer that the odometer is connected to works?
Besides, wheel radius on a car is variable and is constantly changing. This is one of the primary reasons that speedometers read fast - the car maker provides a conservative buffer to ensure that no matter what your tire wear, air pressure and wheel size are, there is a much better chance of you traveling equal to or slower than the displayed speed, as opposed to faster than the displayed speed.
Re:Same thing happend to Audi a few years ago (Score:5, Informative)
I have a 2009 Highlander Hybrid. It happened to me last week. No floormats to get in the way. Accelerator pedal returned to "home: position. The event went like this: full acceleration by me to merge into traffic and complete release of accelerator. The acceleration continued at 100% for another full second. Over 150KW of power. Now I wonder what kind of computer fault would have happened if I had pressed on the brake to compensate for the uncontrolled acceleration.....
OMG - I own a Nissan Sentra and it happened to me. (Score:5, Informative)
The government & Toyota are probably right about the floor mat. But that's what recalls are for.
This is exactly what happened to me and I was heading to a cliff - 3rd gear - floored and I had the presence of mind to turn off the ignition. Seriously - I was terrified.
Picture this, you turn a corner, accelerate, change gears, and suddenly you are going around 80 Km/h with about 1 block to the edge of cliff and a 90 degree turn on a residential street with a cliff in front of you.
I had the time to turn off the ignition and jerk to a stop... BTW taking it out of gear under full acceleration is not simple either. I can hear the vacuum cleaner sound of the engine too - it was crazy. However, when the engine red-lines - it kill the accelerator for a second and then lets it restart... grabbing the ****ing anything with that is un-fun.
AFTER it stopped I could diagnose the problem being that the driver's side floor mat came off the hook that is supposed to hold it in place and inched up over the gas-pedal... thus couldn't un-press it until the carpet was pulled back.
Since there was a slot in the peg that holds the carpet in place, I took a handy dandy twist tie and wrapped the peg with the carpet in place preventing the carpet from EVER popping off that peg. Since then - no scary shit.
Toyota and Nissan should fix this problem - at their cost - and it should be a recall. - After all - it's a 10 cent fix - a peg that has a simple spring latch on top would fix it with no problems. Picture hanger anchors have used that technique for decades now.
I've had the problem (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:3, Informative)
That's a ridiculously uninformed comment.
BMW speedometers read high but it's not due to a problem with the electronics. It is intentional and other replies have already stated why it's intentional.
If you go into the car's service menu (you can reach it with a goofy pedal combination, similar to the old Nintendo up-down-up-down-a-b-start) you can find a menu that presents the ACTUAL speed which is clearly separated from the REPORTED speed.
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:5, Informative)
God damn, people! break != brake
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:4, Informative)
Hell if 8000lb UPS trucks can manage without it [power steering], a little passenger car sure can.
It depends on the design of the vehicle, specifically the caster angle.
If your angle is 0 it's pretty easy to turn the wheel. But if it's not, then turning the wheel means also lifting the vehicle higher, and that's not easy.
They use non-zero angles so that the weight of the vehicle will auto put the wheels back to straight. It makes it much easier to drive long distances if the wheel "likes" to be straight.
Re:Put the damn thing in neutral! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:3, Informative)
Yep, and we have *such* and exact value for Pi.
Are you insane? We have as exact a value for pi as we need, far more accurate than any machine tools we can construct. Accurate enough to measure the entire universe down to Planck values, if it comes to that. Speedometers are rough, but it ain't because we don't know enough digits of pi.
It's called Cruise Control (Score:1, Informative)
I've had no problems with my Prius, however I did experience something similar to what those drivers are complaining about when I had cruise control turned on and active (set to a specific speed, as opposed to having no speed set). When cruise control is on and I tap the break to slow down and temporarily take the car off cruise control, if I don't touch any of the pedals for a few seconds and the car continues to decelerate, cruise control will kick back in and accelerate the car back up to the set speed. I would not be at all surprised if the problem was actually due to misuse or misunderstanding of cruise control.
Hell, some people are stupid enough that they need to be specifically told that just because cruise control is on, doesn't mean you can get up to go make a sandwich while driving, I guess they also need to be told that cruise control will cause the vehicle to maintain a set speed with no throttle or break input. Oh wait, that's specifically what it does.
Re:Totota problems..... (Score:4, Informative)
My sudden-acceleration Audi experience (Score:5, Informative)
The Audi 5000S was never defective...
It might be true that some people hit the wrong pedal, but I actually owned an Audi 5000 Turbo and experienced sudden-acceleration.
I was driving down an Interstate highway in Texas, when the car suddenly began accelerating. I was on cruse control, and my feet were not touching any pedals. Since I'm comfortable at high speeds (past racer) and the weather and road were good, I was pretty calm. I put my foot behind the accelerator pedal and pulled back. It moved freely. I realized the cruse control had opened the throttle wide open.
I tapped the brakes to shut down the system. The pedal wouldn't move. I pressed hard with both feet, and could feel the arm flex, but it would not move. Realizing I had no brakes, and a wide open throttle, I hit the dash switch to shut off the cruse control. As the car slowed, the brakes slowly became operational. I noticed the turbo boost gage was now reading negative pressure. When the turbo boost was on, you could not apply the brakes.
It turns out that there was a check valve between the intake manifold and the brake booster. If it leaks/leaks, then high pressure air prevents the application of the brakes.
My belief is there was a bug in the cruse control, or it was susceptible to outside interference (trucker with hopped-up CB radio?) Combine that with the check valve issue and you have a car that could very well exhibit the behavior that 60 Minutes indicated. Those people said the car suddenly accelerated and the brakes didn't work. And that matches my experience exactly.
I contacted Audi USA, but they blew me off. The dealer didn't care either.
I'll let others argue whether this is a 'defect', but I've been cured of ever buying another Audi.
Re:Go to the ABC site - watch video (Score:3, Informative)
Pumping the brakes always causes brake failure in cars with power assist braking. It always has. That's why no one teaches you to do it anymore.
You are completely and totally fucking wrong. Shut the fuck up before you tell someone something that may KILL THEM.
Pumping the brakes causes failure in the vast majority of vehicles equipped with ABS. It doesn't actually break anything, but you can't stop effectively while both you and the brake system are reducing braking force [roadtripamerica.com] in order to try to modulate braking. SOME of the newest ABS-equipped vehicles can still work fine if you are pumping the brakes. These systems are most likely to be used in conjunction with traction or yaw control, because THESE are the vehicles with powerful pumps that can brake without you even pressing the pedal, unlike typical ABS such as that found in my '93 Impreza or on the back of my '92 F250. They need this functionality in order to be able to apply the brakes on an individual wheel, in order to yaw the vehicle.
Power-assisted braking almost always uses a brake booster installed between the firewall and master cylinder, whose only purpose is to help you press the pedal. It does this either by using engine vacuum (or on the case of a turbo diesel or even most normal diesels, a vacuum pump) to pull on the M/C side, or by using hydraulic fluid pushed by the power steering pump to push on the firewall side. Either way, "pumping" the brakes happens in a TINY range of actuation, causing less than a quarter-inch of travel in the master cylinder, because you're really not pumping them. You're just modulating, letting up a tiny bit basically, then returning your foot to a braking position. Even if you were REALLY pumping the brakes (like you might do to build up pressure when braking, if there is a problem with your brake system) the booster would work fine so long as the engine was running.
I can confirm this problem with my 2009 Camry (Score:5, Informative)
Anytime your car starts to accelerate when you don't want it to, you can always just put the car in neutral. You have to train your brain to do this automatically and quickly, because if you start accelerating rapidly, you will also need to focus on the road and not cause an accident. My wife almost got in an accident several years ago because our old 1993 Ford Explorer had a sticky gas pedal. We've since gotten rid of that clunker (thank goodness), but when it was happened I told her it was important for her to train her "muscle memory" to put the car in neutral. Many people who don't know how to drive a manual transmission also don't ever use the neutral on their automatic transmission vehicles.
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:2, Informative)
This is exactly correct. Mechanical speedos are designed to show an approximation of speed and will always err on the side of caution by reading high - it has nothing to do with massaging MPG figures. If it were possible to be going faster than the indicated speed then manufacturers would be liable to paying for every speeding ticket ever issued. If I'm going through a fixed speed camera bang on the speed limit, I don't want to get nicked because my speedo under-read by a few mph.
A few years ago I took part in a charity 'run-what-you-brung' motorcycle event, which consisted of 2 miles of pristine runway, with a calibrated radar trap in the middle. Even though my fastest indicated speed was 180mph, the maximum speed recorded by the radar was only 165mph; a full 15mph out. That was on a Suzuki GSX-R750, but some other bikes had much bigger discrepancies, from speaking to the riders up to 20-25mph in some cases. Note that sports-bike riders generally don't care about mpg either.
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:5, Informative)
My 1987 Plymouth reports speed 5mph lower than actual. I discovered this after getting two tickets, and the officer told me his radar showed 5mph faster than I was driving. Not the designers' fault, but my own since I inadvertently bought tires that were one size too big than the original stock. (shrug)
Back to Toyota:
Prius owners have been reporting over 5 years now that their cars will suddenly accelerate for no reason. I know at least one guy who said the car started moving while he was filling it with gas, so clearly not driver error. The car has a computer and the computer has a mind of its own. Now it seems that Prius tech is being applied to mainstream cars like Camrys, so what was once just a rare occurrence is becoming commonplace.
Toyota has a bad habit of denying culpability.
When midsize SUV and sedan engines started failing at only 20-30,000 miles Toyota refused to honor the engine warranty, and owners were forced to spend thousands of dollars for new engines. Toyota blamed the owners for failing to change their oil (even though owners had dealer receipts proving oil changes happened). Later-on it was discovered the engine ran hot and basically cooked the oil, hence early engine seizure, but Toyota still refused to honor the warranty. Eventually the US DOJ became involved and forced Toyota to refund customers for engine repairs, or else face a class-action lawsuit.
It appears Toyota is once-again being stubborn, and it may take legal action from the U.S. or EU to force them to do the right thing.
Re:Put the damn thing in neutral! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:1, Informative)
In Pennsylvania at least, that car would not pass inspection (that is not to say it won't get a sticker). As part of the annual inspection process the technician puts the car on a machine that isolates the drive wheels and the car is driven for a period of time. The speed on the speedometer is compared to the read out on the screen and at the same time data is collected for emissions from the exhaust.
Any mismatch and the technician should notice and fix the problem or fail the car.
Also a common cause of that mismatch is the replacement of the tires. If you do not replace with the same size spec'd out by the manufacturer then you can throw out the calibration of x rpm's per mph.
Re:Put the damn thing in neutral! (Score:2, Informative)
Seriously, when my shoe got wedged between the dash and accelerator, the FIRST thing I did was hit the clutch, the second thing I did was shift into neutral so I could slow down, and the third thing I did was unwedge my damned shoe!
I think there was an itch on the top of my foot or something, but I learned to be more careful of where my feet were in that car.
I'd been a manual transmission driver for 5 years at the time. Did I waste time thinking about it? NO! My instinct when I need emergency slowdown is hit the clutch. My instinct when I need precise braking is to go into neutral. I don't need to think about those anymore because I spent enough time thinking about them so I could drive at all.
Re:Carmakers lie (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Put the damn thing in neutral! (Score:2, Informative)
One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.
But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.
The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.
Re:problems with complexity (Score:1, Informative)
I call BS. A Raptor is completely fly by wire, has multiple times more directional inputs and outputs, and you want to say that a passenger car, which has at least one order of magnitude simpler control complexity requires an order of magnitude MORE code? You're likely to get your Slashdot credentials revoked with that kind of 'logic'. Incidentally, the requirement for 'simple' controls is dramatically greater for a Raptor than for a car because of the degrees of freedom of movement, not to mention the thrust vectoring feedback mechanism. Who moded this guy insightful?
Re:problems with complexity (Score:1, Informative)
Car ECU's do not have ~100 million lines of code.