Iraq Swears By Dowsing Rod Bomb Detector 652
jggimi writes "According to the New York Times, more than fifteen hundred remote sensing devices have been sold to Iraq's Ministry of the Interior, at prices ranging from $16,500 to $60,000 each. The devices are used for bomb and weapon detection at checkpoints, and have no battery or other power source. Sounds great, but according to a retired United States Air Force officer, Lt. Col. Hal Bidlack, they work on the same principle as a Ouija board — the power of suggestion. He described the wand as nothing more than an explosives divining rod. Even though the device has been debunked by the US Military, the US Department of Justice, and even Sandia National Laboratories, the Iraqis are thrilled with the devices. 'Whether it's magic or scientific, what I care about is it detects bombs,' said Maj. Gen. Jehad al-Jabiri, head of the Ministry of the Interior's General Directorate for Combating Explosives."
It's not so stupid... (Score:5, Interesting)
But the device works “on the same principle as a Ouija board”
So in effect, this device will justify my search of anyone that I feel has a bomb. Even if I know it's bogus (and I'd not be surprised if the Iraqis do know this), it permits me to search anyone I want just because I feel they may have a bomb. I'd not be surprised if there was some correlation between suspicious-looking-folks and folks-with-bombs, so the power of unbounded searching is probably (somewhat) effective.
On the other hand, if they really do believe that these devices work, then the bombers may share those beliefs. That, also, could deter bombings.
Either way, it's a win for Iraq ... well, if you don't care about human rights and the millions of dollars.
May have a benefit.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Water for Thought... (Score:2, Interesting)
When I was living in NY, I worked with a fellow who had his well pointed out by a local Dowser. It cost him $300 in 1990.
And for $300, he would tell you exactly where you should dig, precisely how far you should dig, how much water you were going to get (GPM), how long it would last, whether it was subject to drought or could be relied upon during dry spells. He could also eliminate sources with salt, sulfur, iron, calcium and anything else you don't want in your water. He'd take a wire flag and write the instructions for the driller on the flag, then stick it precisely where they were supposed to drill.
The catch?
The Dowser gave his guarantee in writing, with a quadruple your money back if anything was less than what he promised. Goes dry? Not enough flow? Muddy, salty, iron, sulfur? He'll pay you $1200.
When I heard the story from my co-worker, the old fellow hadn't needed to pay anyone back in the 20 years he'd been doing it. Dunno if he's still alive now, though.
And I'm not sure he'd want to try this out with explosives if he still is.
Re:This kind of upsets me (Score:3, Interesting)
Society has disadvantages, but most of the time the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Re:Water for Thought... (Score:3, Interesting)
One day he had stopped his truck by our orchard, taking one of his perfectly untimed smoke breaks, and the subject of dowsing came up. He talked about not only finding water but also being able to figure out flow rates and depth. He proceeded to cut a Y-shaped branch from a tree and dowse our property. We had a known stream that flowed through the property and he found it, of course. But what I remember was how that inanimate branch turned into a straining, curving, living thing as it dived toward the ground. In my mind there was simply no way you could hold a branch and make it do that -- the branch itself wanted to do it, and did it.
It is incredibly easy to be skeptical and cynical, until you have seen something that rivals the best magician's trick. From a guy who spent most of every day of his life by himself.
Re:So What? We use "Lie Detectors". (Score:4, Interesting)
No post about polygraphy is complete without a link to antipolygraph [antipolygraph.org].
For anyone interested, the site has a lot of great information, including a free book [antipolygraph.org] that goes into intimate details regarding how polygraphs are operated and how their results are interpreted to mean either "truth" or "lies". They even have the operator's handbooks and interpretation guides for giving an examination and information on how to "beat the box".
Very interesting stuff -- doubly so for anyone who might sometime be in a position where taking a polygraph is required for a job or security clearance.
Seen this before! (Score:5, Interesting)
Michael Shermer, famous Skeptic, gave a TED speech [ted.com] on "why people believe strange things." He actually brought one of those detectors out on stage, and said that US public schools were buying it as a marijuana detector, and paying hundreds of dollars for it. Looking at the image in the article, it appears to be the same device.
Re:Bugs Bunny (Score:5, Interesting)
I guess if your divining rod detects a suicide bomber... then what? They detonate? I guess it is 100% effective in that case. Bomb detected.
Checkpoints are designed to minimize damage from a ... erm ... "premature detonation". The guy with the wand might get splattered pretty good if he's right up close, but everyone else makes it out just fine. It still sucks for the guy who's swinging that thing, but it's a loss in the bad-guys book because they can't afford to trade men on a 1 to 1 basis. There's only so many crazy people who'll strap a bomb to themselves.
Also, suicide bombers have been known to change their minds when confronted with such a situation. It's one thing to kill dozens of your enemies (even if they're civilians shopping for groceries) for the Glory of Allah - quite another thing to kill yourself and, if you're lucky, only take out one poor $2-per-hour rent a cop.
Re:Insightful (Score:4, Interesting)
He had a bit of success at it too.
Why? How? I do not know. He's is the best man I have ever known, and I trust him.
Re:This kind of upsets me (Score:5, Interesting)
If you are an American, Englishman, Frenchman, German, Australian, Canadian or other western individual your country, civilisation and way of life depends 110% on keeping those barrels of oil flowing into your trucks, tractors, machinery and cars.
Without those barrels of oil your lifestyle will go back to 1900's style in many ways and quite a few of you will die. Coal of course can pick up the slack in many areas of energy production but then be prepared for the pollution and death that it brings...1900 style fogs of coal particles. Food production will decrease and the labour needed to produce it will go up by tenfold so without being alarmist millions of people in the less fortunate parts of the world will die without the wealth of cheap western food that much of that oil grows that keeps them fed.
As for the environment and CO2 emmissions without oil, what we're putting out now will be like a trickle compared to using coal.
It seems rather hypocritical to me to rail against Blood for Oil while living extremely comfortably in an advanced western society directly reaping the benefits of having that oil in the fuel tank of your car or providing power to your public transport or the plastic for nearly every type of luxury possible and fertiliser for your food that makes tomatoes and potatoes worth less than $1000 a tonne. Especially hypocritical is the western metro, urban left who have the more than anyone else on the entire planet to lose if the oil stops...
I guess it's easier to project the guilt onto the big bad rich white men. Kinda like how many junkies blame their dealers for the state of their own lives...
Re:Insightful (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually a hallmark of dowsers is they tend not to purposefully lie. They certainly believe what they're saying due to the strength of the idoemotor effect and confirmation bias.
Military Dowsing History (Score:2, Interesting)
I used to be skeptical. My old uncle used to hold a modified coat-hanger in one hand and float a pen over a map with the other. He found many many many oil and gas well locations this way and was never plagued by dry holes. Loads of dowsing stories he had. He would vacation and come back with gold nuggets. He astounded a freshly retired naval officer friend by globe dowsing the secret location of his submarine. He showed me articles with pictures of grunts in Viet Nam finding Charlies tunnel entrances with modified bucket handles.
We had several discussions about what was really happening here. From what we and others could figure , the dowsing rod, pendulum or whatever is used is only and indicator of intuition. The trick, my uncle said was to enter an alpha state of mind or it wouldn't work. This we tested with a biofeedback machine and it seemed to be so. Other untested thoughts we had were; perhaps the magnetic sensing nerves in your nose work in conjunction with your brain and any ferric or bioelectric signature of the sought item. This wasn't disproved, but , he also would think of yes/no answer questions and get 95% + accuracy upon investigation.
I never attained his accuracy, but, I still find lost items around the house pretty well.
When science can quantify intuition, then I believe we will be able to experiment more. Till then, if it works for you use it, others have for centuries. If you don't have any faith it it, you won't be able to do it for sure. It doesn't have anything to do with anything supernatural , only biological as far as I have seen. No debunking necessary. It remains an obscure talent among those who can control their own alpha.
Re:Water for Thought... (Score:1, Interesting)
That Randi challenge is a scam, they change the rules to prevent anybody from getting close to claim the prize. They usually do this when negotiating testing protocols, if you accept their proposed protocol, they change it to make it even harder. If you complain they call you "unreasonable" and close the claim.
In the last few years they have made it really hard to apply for the challenge requiring that you have media exposure before they even consider your application. People that shows up in the media claiming paranormal abilities don't need a million bucks.
Re:Insightful (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember reading something about it in New Scientist years ago (probably 1980 something). It was about research into magnetic fields and what happens when water moves and the jist of it was that some people are unconsciously sensitive to these fields.
I can't remember the details, but it does kind of make sense to me considering that there are lots of animals with sensitivity to magnetic fields and our own bodies are full of little tiny ferrite dots being pumped around. It doesn't make much sense to me when it comes to detecting explosives, but a fool and his money are soon parted...
That copy of New Scientist was given to me by my grandfather who taught me divining. It goes back centuries in our family.
Re:This kind of upsets me (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you aware of how counter-insurgancy works, and the surge which is making it possible for us to leave Iraq in relative peace? Basically, we put enough soldiers in to defend the people as long as they would tell us who the bad guys were. We had to rely on informants.....if they didn't want us there, we never would have gotten enough informants to make a difference.
If the majority didn't want to cooperate with the US, the violence of 2004-2006 wouldn't have ended. At that time a large part of the country favored Al Qaeda as much as they favored the US. However, Al Qaeda has been very helpful in making us look good by making themselves look even worse. At least we don't shoot people's fingers off for smoking a cigarette, or force the women to 'marry' our soldiers. In comparison to Al Qaeda the US looks really good.
Fear factor (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's not so stupid... (Score:3, Interesting)
>>On the other hand, if they really do believe that these devices work, then the bombers may share those beliefs. That, also, could deter bombings.
This Israeli guy I know, big biomechanics guy, has worked on gait-analysis systems for Israel. You see, a guy who has a bunch of explosives strapped to his waist walks differently from someone normally. The system flags people down as they go through a checkpoint, and get searched and wanded more extensively than the normal line. When I asked him why they don't just blow up the security checkpoint people then, he said that just knowing the detection systems are there is enough to deter suicide bombings.
Re:This kind of upsets me (Score:2, Interesting)
If there's a transition period rather than an immediate cut-off (and loosing Iraq does not equal a total loss of all oil sources), we can survive this change with only some years lost in economic growth. And that's only if the immense investments in "new" areas don't come with important break-throughs that actually boost the economy (thinking of fusion and fission here, and be it just the giant ball of fire in the sky).
Re:Seen this before! (Score:1, Interesting)
buying it as a marijuana detector
Best pot story I ever heard:
Back in the 60s or 70s, they sent "Officer Straight Arrow" around to middle and high schools to lecture on the dangers of pot and to demonstrate how to detect if your friends were using. He'd take a chemical tablet out of an envelope, place it on a saucer, light it and pass it around the room so the kids would know what "the real thing" whould smell like. Apparently the saucer came back to the front of the room with the still-smoldering tablet, along with a few smoldering roaches contributed by the students.
Re:Another reason why (Score:2, Interesting)
What's wrong with the idea of Mutual Assured Destruction? It seems pretty much self evident that two rival powers with the capability to destroy each other utterly would be deterred from striking first. And it worked well in practice.
Of course it would be nice if we'd sat down with the Stalin and sang kumbaya and eaten s'mores like at Summer Camp, but in the absence of that possibility a relatively peaceful stalemate based on Nash's Equilibrium seems like a better option than either an all out war or getting overrun by a totalitarian regime that had already starved millions of its own people to death and had already conquered Eastern Europe.
How would you have handled the Cold War?
Re:Insightful (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Insightful (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This kind of upsets me (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems rather hypocritical to me to rail against Blood for Oil while living extremely comfortably in an advanced western society directly reaping the benefits of having that oil...
It is not hypocritical to believe that we should all obtain our oil on the free market. Note that the Iraq war has *not* made oil cheaper: in fact it has got five times more expensive. The Iraq war has not improved the lifestyle for those of us in the belligerent countries.
I guess it's easier to project the guilt onto the big bad rich white men. Kinda like how many junkies blame their dealers for the state of their own lives...
In the four years I spent as a drug counsellor I never heard any drug users blaming their dealers for 'the state of their own lives'.
Almost invariably, a drug users dealers are his friends and his friends are his dealers. Drug 'pushers' are mythical beasts.
Re:So What? We use "Lie Detectors". (Score:2, Interesting)
Also consider the inventor, not an expert in any feild at all related to it but simply the guy that wrote the "Wonder Woman" comics.
The man you're referring to is William Marston [wikipedia.org], and to be fair, he did get his Ph.D. in Psychology from Harvard.
Re:Insightful (Score:2, Interesting)
Hammerhead sharks have glands on the underside of their heads that detect the magnetic fields of fish under the sand. The sharks basically dowse for fish! The theory is that their wide heads enable them to cover more area as they skim the bottom of the sea, sensing prey hiding in the sand. So some animals certainly can sense magnetic fields.
Now, whether Iraqis can do this for bombs is another matter. I personally believe that there may be something to dowsing. But it's a personal belief, nothing more.
Re:Insightful (Score:3, Interesting)
Water dowsers (and the general public) speak of underground water as if it were rivers, creeks, and pools; it's an easy mistake to make.
Anyone with a background in hydro-geology understands that underground water is more like layers. Look at a mountain cutout along the highway and you can see how many layers of rock exist in just a few feet of depth. Between each layer are fissures, water flows through such fissures pulled by gravity further and further down.
Drill deep enough and you reach a point where the speed of permeation into the layers below is slow enough and permeation from above is steady enough to result in accumulation; this is our "water table". Drill deeper and your well actually becomes a pressure outlet for those deeper layers.
By knowing how deep your neighbors well is (I've used a well over a mile away for comparison before) and estimating the change in elevation (and the slope of the bedrock layers if possible) you can predict within 5 feet the depth needed for adequate production. The difference anywhere on your property will simply be the relative difference in elevation.
note: This also remains true of "shallow" wells that don't go into bedrock, the difference is that your water will be in a layer of gravel.
My Conclusions:
1) it ain't science and it ain't a gift from God
2) there are 2 options why dowsing works
a- it's an expression of the subconscious
b- it's a manifestation of an undivine power that wants you to believe in backwoods voodoo
3) depending on your relationship with your father-in-law this is either something you should never bring up... or something to tuck away in your mind for later
Re:Another reason why (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd say even less then that. Even relatively minor things such as border disputes or small scale conflicts require far more thought and consideration of worth if both sides are packing enough nukes to wipe out the other and claim to be willing to do so.
Someone wouldn't have needed to otherwise be willing to commit the other country to nuclear holocaust for MAD to have worked. Someone would have just needed to think more carefully before taking any action to provoke the other side on any issue that might have otherwise escalated in lieu of an answer to "What are they going to do about it?".
Re:You don't have to believe in it. (Score:4, Interesting)
I've got a couple dozen acres with gas lines crossing it in places. I can tell where the pipes are laid because the ground is slightly off from when they backfilled the trench they dug, in certain lines, the grass grows differently because, I suspect, the drainage is different for that location, and the undisturbed ground.
The pipes were laid 20 years ago.
Now, a lot of people here are ALSO falling for the mystique of the sceptic. Just because you don't have an immediate explanation for something, doesn't automatically make the 'capability' false.
I believe it is possible that there may be clues that our bodies pick up, but we ignore with our often distracted conscious minds. Now, does that mean I believe in dowsing? No, it isn't an admission of belief, but I wouldn't discount that we might be ignoring some feedback from our bodies that we normally don't acknowledge.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy#Possibility_of_human_tetrachromats [wikipedia.org]
Re:You don't have to believe in it. (Score:2, Interesting)
Followup to prevent people from bursting into rage at my post. I'm not implying that it is magical. I'm saying I'm not discounting something as impossible, but if possible, it should be testable.
I find it possible that there is something out there as rare as tetrachromacy, but once ONE person does it, then you are going to have x1000000 copycats who are most likely frauds who then completely overshadow the few legitimate ones.
Imagine that there were some condition that fewer than 0.000005% of the population acquired. Sensitivity to electric fields (or whatever, it's just an example). ~33,000 people should exhibit that sensitivity.
25% of the world's population doesn't even have electricity.
5.025 billion left
20% is under the age of 10 and likely won't be able to communicate that sensitivity.
~4.12 billion left
That gives us about 20,000 people with that sensitivity. If that were distributed normally across the globe, you end up with one person with that sensitivity for every 7,440 square km.
To give you a comparison: That's more sparse than Antarctica (assuming ~4000 people)
I wouldn't be surprised if there were people out there with abilities we don't normally see. Abilities fully testable in a scientific manner, but certainly possible.
Re:Insightful (Score:3, Interesting)
ROFLMAO
You looked up the city, and you found John's name. Very good. But, we only have your word that you CALLED him. So, I watched the old dude using his dousing rods, and you claim to have talked to the old dude's boss. My word against yours, right?
Oh well. Whatever. You don't have to believe a thing, nor does anyone else.
Re:Another reason why (Score:3, Interesting)
The Pentagon and intel agencies actually spent millions on "psychic warfare" projects at one point;
Personally I think the Pentagon's deeply credulous and well funded search for psychics to be better proof of their non-existence than the unclaimed Randi Foundation prize. You can claim Randi is biased against the existence of psychics (and of course this makes their powers not work). But these guys really, really wanted to find actual, no bullshit, no cold-reading, honest-to-God psychics. And they didn't.