Two Sunken Japanese Submarines Found Off Hawaii 239
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kdawson
from the toro-toro-and-we-don't-mean-lawnmowers dept.
from the toro-toro-and-we-don't-mean-lawnmowers dept.
Ponca City, We love you writes "The NY Times reports that two World War II Japanese submarines, including one meant to carry aircraft for attacks on American cities, have been found in deep water off Hawaii where they were sunk in 1946. Specifically designed for a stealth attack on the US East Coast — perhaps targeting Washington, DC and New York City — the 'samurai subs' were fast, far-ranging, and some carried folding-wing aircraft. Five Japanese submarines were captured by American forces at the end of the war and taken to Pearl Harbor for study, then towed to sea and torpedoed, probably to avoid having to share any of their technology with the Russian military. One of the Japanese craft, the I-201, was covered with a rubberized coating on the hull, an innovation intended to make it less apparent to sonar or radar; it was capable of speeds of about 20 knots while submerged, making it among the fastest diesel submarines ever made. The other, the I-14, much larger and slower, was designed to carry two small planes, Aichi M6A Seirans that could be brought onto the deck and launched by a catapult. The submarines were meant to threaten the United States directly, but none of the attacks occurred because the subs were developed too late in the war, and American intelligence was too good. 'It's very moving to see objects like this underwater,' says Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, 'because it's a very peaceful environment, but these subs were designed for aggression.'"
Disappointed (Score:4, Interesting)
When I first read this headline, I thought they had located the missing midget submarine used to attack Pearl Harbor. (See this [wikipedia.org]) This is not the case. That ship still remains lost.
Re:Wha? (Score:1, Interesting)
We're talking about the (re)discovery of a submersible aircraft carrier here, a presently defunct offshoot of military technology. I'd say it qualifies (and I'm sure everybody who's ever played Supreme Commander would agree with me).
Re:Launched by catapult? (Score:5, Interesting)
Back in tha day, they had to use a big boom arm for ships without a deck. For recovery, the aircraft would land next to the ship/sub and a big crane would just hoist them out of the water. this page [ussslcca25.com] shows a pretty similar process for an old OS2U-3 Kingfisher. Some pretty cool pix at the bottom of the page. I wouldn't want to be the pilot during recovery.
Re:In the year 2199... (Score:1, Interesting)
I gave you a mod point because as soon as I saw your comment, I knew exactly what you were referring to and it gave me a much needed laugh.
For all its cheesiness, Starblazers (Space Battleship Yamato) is one of the leading reasons for manga and its ilk in this country. It had every conceivable storyline all in one: wet-behind-the-ears heroes, crusty father-like leader, talking robots, attractive woman who gets involved with a crewmember, evil, human-like beings bent on destroying/taking over Earth, fantastic technology (where's my wave motion gun dammit!), space marines, space tanks, mysterious being who can save the planet*, an all out, toe-to-toe slugfest with the enemy**, and much, much more!
If ever someone needs to be introduced to Japanese manga, start with Starblazers.
*If she can send the instructions for creating a wave motion engine, why couldn't she send the instructions for how to create the machine which would rid the Earth of the radiation? Why make us make the trip? Oh right, plot.
**This is my one guilty pleasure. Whenever the scene where the Yamato descends into the Gamilon planet and haves at it with the Gamilon forces, I always watch that scene late at night in a dark room with the volume up high. If you have a tendency towards epileptic seizures, I advise you not to do the same. I've never timed it, but I think it's close to a minute of nothing but explosions, gunfire, flashing/blinking lights, screeching missiles arching through air and a whole lot of wanton destruction. Fun times to be had by all!
Re:Launched by catapult? (Score:5, Interesting)
A little tangential here, but it may be interesting to engineering nerds.
I got a description of some of the workings of standard carrier catapults from a co-worker who used to be stationed on one. This is maybe 20 years old, so our tech may have changed since then. Apparently they have (had?) a supply of hour-glass shaped steel widgets on board color-coded to match the aircraft being launched. When it was time to launch, they would grab the appropriate size/color and insert it as an intentional weak-link in line with the cable before firing up the winch. When the cable was properly tensioned, the steel widget would break and release the cable throwing the plane into the air.
Kind of a neat design idea if you can't just haul the cable along fast enough to throw the plane.
Re:Launched by catapult? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Tour a sub. (Score:4, Interesting)
My family drives from New Jersey to Massachussetts every year, and it's tradition to stop in Groton at the Nautilus for a long break. The museum is excellent and the tour of the sub gives you a feel for history that can never be matched by books or documentaries. I have a lot of fond memories of the place, from when I was very young being completely in awe of this boat that could go underwater, to growing up and understanding the history surrounding its creation, and truly appreciating the sign on one of the nearby houses in Groton that encouraged visitors to be mindful of the fact that, for all the marvelous engineering and history surrounding the ship, it was a ship made for war.
Re:Tour a sub. (Score:3, Interesting)
The U505 is impressive but the tour is far too short. You really don't get a good opportunity to experience the sub and examine all its workings. The tour guides rush you from room to room, tell a little story in each, and then hustle you out. I would have preferred to go at my own pace, but I understand the need to keep the line moving since it's such a confined space.
Re:Wha? (Score:4, Interesting)
The Japanese were convinced that Dolittle's raid was conducted by submarine launched bombers to such an extent they spent an enormous amount of effort developing them.
Like many such items during the war - these subs attempted too many innovations in one jump and were not reliable. The Germans and the Japanese had a penchant for attempting to produce super weapons as opposed to incremental improvements in existing stuff. Some of what they produced was incredible, but none of it was really ready for prime time, or available in sufficient quantity to significantly have any effect on the war.
One of the most draconian decisions of the war was on the part of the US - it was recognized that the Sherman was no match for the heavier German tanks. There were some improvements, but the US counted on the fact that we were producing and delivering tanks at a rate that outstripped the Germans ability to destroy them or replace their own.
Re:Tour a sub. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Someone has got to say it (Score:3, Interesting)
The only real insight was Freud's obsession with the phallus, and his lack of consideration for basic physics.
Re:Launched by catapult? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am no expert, but my impression is that aircraft cat systems haven't changed significantly in those 20 years.
But in the US Navy's next carrier class [wikipedia.org], it will [wikipedia.org].
Re:Launched by catapult? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think they did very well - I seem to recall reading that not one was ever used successfully.
They were used successfully (from the wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]):
1 April 1945: Six "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. At least one makes a successful attack, with its Ohka hitting one of the 406 mm (16 in) turrets on West Virginia, causing moderate damage.
12 April 1945: Nine "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. Mannert L. Abele is hit, breaks in two, and sinks. Witnessed by LSMR-189 CO James M. Stewart. Jeffers destroys an Ohka with AA fire 45 m (50 yd) from the ship, but the resulting explosion is still powerful enough to cause extensive damage, forcing Jeffers to withdraw. Stanly is targeted by two Ohkas. One strikes just above the waterline, with the charge punching through the other side of the hull before detonating, causing little damage to the ship, and the other Ohka narrowly missed and crashed into the sea, knocking off the Stanly's ensign in the process
4 May 1945: Seven "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. One Ohka hits the bridge of Shea, causing extensive damage and casualties. Gayety is also damaged by a near-miss by an Ohka. One "Betty" returns.
11 May 1945: Four "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. Hugh W. Hadley is hit, suffers extensive damage and flooding. Vessel judged beyond repair.
Re:Wha? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Tour a sub. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Tour a sub. (Score:2, Interesting)
They built 28 WWII subs up there and floated them down the Mississippi.
Re:Wha? (Score:5, Interesting)
As Stalin once said, quantity has a quality of its own. It's great it you can produce one tank that will kill five of the enemy's; until of course your enemy starts producing six tanks for every one of yours.
Re:Tour a sub. (Score:3, Interesting)
That's pretty much still the case on modern nuke boats. The bunks in the torpedo room are roomier and more open. Some guys get "coffin sickness" from their racks (they wake up screaming at night) so they are allowed to sleep in the torpedo room.
early stealth subs were german inventions (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wha? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Of course the allies led in technology. That's why they won the war. "
The Allies won the war because of Hitler's master plan:
10 Invade your neighbour
20 Goto 10
30 An empire which will exist for 1000 years!
The U.S. was fully prepared to declare Germany the winner in Europe and let life go on.
Technology did end the war in the Pacific though. But if Hitler didn't declare war on the U.S. and Russia, regardless of the Pacific, Europe would be a Nazi superpower. It was a strange time in history. The man was clearly insane.
Looking at the history, it seems like war was inevitable. Hitler started sabre-rattling and the USSR then Japan all followed suit. It was like all this new weapons technology came about just waiting for the nuts to take advantage of it. These aircraft, bombers and stuff existed in a world where people could clearly remember a time before aircraft or the automobile were invented.
And that makes me think about current changes in technology, and how we all remember a time when the government didn't have computers, cameras and all this new tech to track everyone's move and create/destroy mass information at a whim. What's going to happen in 10 years?
Airplane Carriers... (Score:4, Interesting)
The submarine type mentioned, the one designed to carry folding aircraft and a catapult for launching, was actually used in the only aerial attack on the contiguous United States by the Japanese during WWII (both Alaska and Hawaii were attacked by aircraft) if one does not count the numerous attack balloons sent aloft by the Japanese.
One of these submarines surfaced off the coast of Oregon and launched one of it's folding aircraft. The plane then flew over forested tracts of land and dropped (by hand!) small incendiary bombs in an effort to start large-scale forest fires. One of these bombs landed on property NW of Langlois, Oregon, property that my Aunt and Uncle owned at the time. Fortunately, the Japanese had not taken into account just how damp the woods along that coast are during the summer months and they simply blew up a few trees. It is not unheard of for it to be raining there in June/July. The desired fires never happened.
It is unknown what became of the plane, but it is assumed it landed near the submarine (I believe they were float-equipped, but incapable of a water launch and thus needed the catapult), was folded up and stowed below deck again.
Though I do not recall the title, there is a book on the subject.
There was also an unverified report of a submarine off the coast of San Diego. An alarm was sounded but the sighting was later questioned.
Re:Launched by catapult? (Score:4, Interesting)
By the way, there was also one British submarine seaplane carrier, the M2 [wikipedia.org].