Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
typodupeerror delete not in

Comments: 239 +-   Two Sunken Japanese Submarines Found Off Hawaii on Friday November 13, @01:06PM

Posted by kdawson on Friday November 13, @01:06PM
from the toro-toro-and-we-don't-mean-lawnmowers dept.
military
technology
Ponca City, We love you writes "The NY Times reports that two World War II Japanese submarines, including one meant to carry aircraft for attacks on American cities, have been found in deep water off Hawaii where they were sunk in 1946. Specifically designed for a stealth attack on the US East Coast — perhaps targeting Washington, DC and New York City — the 'samurai subs' were fast, far-ranging, and some carried folding-wing aircraft. Five Japanese submarines were captured by American forces at the end of the war and taken to Pearl Harbor for study, then towed to sea and torpedoed, probably to avoid having to share any of their technology with the Russian military. One of the Japanese craft, the I-201, was covered with a rubberized coating on the hull, an innovation intended to make it less apparent to sonar or radar; it was capable of speeds of about 20 knots while submerged, making it among the fastest diesel submarines ever made. The other, the I-14, much larger and slower, was designed to carry two small planes, Aichi M6A Seirans that could be brought onto the deck and launched by a catapult. The submarines were meant to threaten the United States directly, but none of the attacks occurred because the subs were developed too late in the war, and American intelligence was too good. 'It's very moving to see objects like this underwater,' says Hans Van Tilburg of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, 'because it's a very peaceful environment, but these subs were designed for aggression.'"
story

Related Stories

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • Tour a sub. (Score:5, Insightful)

    Speaking as a guy who's spent time on modern boats, anyone who can get the opportunity to tour a submarine should do so without delay. It's awesome to see photos, but it's even better when you seen the insides at work.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by nelsonal (549144)
      Yeah touring subs are pretty neat. I know of ones in Portland, Galveston, and Pearl Harbor? Any others?
      • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:5, Informative)

        by SBrach (1073190) on Friday November 13, @01:24PM (#30089554)
        How about the Submarine Force Library & Museum in Connecticut? I toured the Nautilus several years ago and it is definitely worth the trip if you are in the North-East.

        Aboard NAUTILUS, experience first-hand the thrill of being a submariner as you walk the decks that made Naval history: the world's first nuclear powered vessel, first ship to go to the North Pole and first submarine to journey "20,000 Leagues under the sea." Explore the spaces where the crew of this amazing ship worked, ate, slept, and entertained themselves on their long voyages far beneath the ocean's waves.

        Link [ussnautilus.org]

        • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Landshark17 (807664) on Friday November 13, @02:11PM (#30090274)
          Amen to that, thank you for posting it.

          My family drives from New Jersey to Massachussetts every year, and it's tradition to stop in Groton at the Nautilus for a long break. The museum is excellent and the tour of the sub gives you a feel for history that can never be matched by books or documentaries. I have a lot of fond memories of the place, from when I was very young being completely in awe of this boat that could go underwater, to growing up and understanding the history surrounding its creation, and truly appreciating the sign on one of the nearby houses in Groton that encouraged visitors to be mindful of the fact that, for all the marvelous engineering and history surrounding the ship, it was a ship made for war.
        • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 13, @04:01PM (#30091748)

          I am a sub service veteran, having served on missile subs in the late 60s/early 70s. When I wasn't out to sea on patrol I used to work on different subs that were in port. One of the boats I worked on was the Nautilus. A few years my wife, daughter, and I toured the Sub Museum and the Nautilus. I pointed out some of the gear that I had worked on, thinking it would impress my daughter. It did: She said "Oh my God, Dad! Your so old the stuff you worked on is in a museum!" It brought me back down to Earth right quick...

        • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:4, Informative)

          by Runaway1956 (1322357) * on Friday November 13, @05:11PM (#30092512) Homepage Journal

          I spent a couple hours at the shrine to the Thresher and the Scorpion in Groton. Any loss at sea is - awe inspiring? But, the loss of a sub is somehow a little bit more than the loss of a surface ship. I got to tour one of the last diesel boats in San Diego, soon after I joined the Navy. A 3rd class petty officer spotted me wandering up and down the pier, examining every detail of the boats, and invited me aboard for a guided tour. Simply awesome.

          Uncle Sam wouldn't allow me to serve aboard boats, for the same reason he wouldn't let me around his aircraft. Poor color vision kept me out of anything interesting. *sigh*

          In '74 and '75, there was a captured WW2 U-boat at the Great Lakes training center as well. That was god-awful small and cramped, even compared to the boat I toured in San Diego.

          Never did tour the Nautilus. I can't even remember why I missed it - it was certainly on my list of "things to do". It probably had something to do with chasing women.....

      • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:5, Informative)

        by chaim79 (898507) on Friday November 13, @01:29PM (#30089628) Homepage

        U505 at Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. It's Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] page, and it's Museum [msichicago.org] page.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Scutter (18425)

          The U505 is impressive but the tour is far too short. You really don't get a good opportunity to experience the sub and examine all its workings. The tour guides rush you from room to room, tell a little story in each, and then hustle you out. I would have preferred to go at my own pace, but I understand the need to keep the line moving since it's such a confined space.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        U-boat in Chicago.
        Growler Submarine in New York City
        Submarine Force Museum in Groton CT has the USS Nautilus

        There are others.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by dtmos (447842)

        You can't go inside it, but the HA.19 [wikipedia.org], one of the Japanese midget submarines that participated (ineffectually) in the attack on Pearl Harbor, is on display at the National Museum of the Pacific War [wikipedia.org], in Fredericksburg, Texas.

      • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:5, Informative)

        by Migraineman (632203) on Friday November 13, @01:32PM (#30089676)
        The USS Torsk (SS-423) [usstorsk.org] is on display in Baltimore MD at the Inner Harbor.
      • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by TheModelEskimo (968202) on Friday November 13, @01:36PM (#30089736)
        You can organize a tour group and get a tour of Bangor in Washington State. I went as a Boy Scout and it was an amazing trip. We toured a huge active-service nuclear missile sub and I believe our troop exhausted that particular sub's supply of soft-serve ice cream within about 20 minutes. :-) It was amazing to walk around and touch the big vertical missile tubes, too. Ever since then I've been fascinated with submarines.

        And, looking at my gut, I'm guessing the soft-serve experience did something to me as well.
        • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 13, @01:53PM (#30090004)

          OK... I can't help it... Going AC...

          You were in a long black tube in Bangor. The most memorable things were getting to feel a big vertical shaft and getting cream in your mouth? And now that memory has created a life-long fascination? I'm having trouble not reading between the lines here.

          Sorry for regressing to 12-years-old there. I'll try to grow up a little now. Truthfully, I'd love to let my boys tour a sub. Next time we're in Portland I'll see if I can line it up.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by srollyson (1184197)
        The USS Cod [wikipedia.org] is docked next to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. I went there this summer and was amazed by how small the living quarters were. Apparently the best bunks were above the torpedo tubes in the bow of the submarine because they're furthest away from the diesel engine. Bunks elsewhere were stacked three high about a foot apart and only wide enough for your shoulders. Cramped!
        • Re:Tour a sub. (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Skraut (545247) on Friday November 13, @03:11PM (#30091128) Journal
          Last time I toured the Cod they said it was the only sub that was a museum that had been unaltered for tourists. It's not handicapped accessible, tight areas around the ladders, you trip over the bulkheads etc. Get a good feeling for what it was like for the sailors.
      • by LanMan04 (790429) on Friday November 13, @02:15PM (#30090384) Homepage

        USS Silversides (SS-236) [wikipedia.org] Active in WWII from April of 1941 to July 1945, and saw quite a bit of action.

        Can be seen at the Great Lakes Naval Memorial & Museum [discountasp.net].

        In Muskegon, MI. They have several "overnight" programs for Cub Scouts and Indian Guides and such so you can spend the night sleeping in the bunks, as well as eat in the galley, watch Das Boot, etc. Very very very cool for kids and adults both.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by JWSmythe (446288)

        USS Drum (SS-228)
        Gato-class submarine
        1940-1967

        Battleship Memorial Park
        2703 Battleship Parkway
        Mobile, Alabama, 36602

        Google Maps satellite view [google.com]

        This park also has a lot of other nice things to look at, such as the USS Alabama (BB-60), and A-12 (similar to the SR-71) #06938.

        A good part of the Drum and Alabama are open for you to explore.

        I was there to see the A-12, but spent h

    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 13, @01:37PM (#30089760)
      • [Sigh] Though that page repeats the (completely false) urban legend that Blueback was used in The Hunt for Red October...
         
        There's also the Submarine Museums [navy.mil] page from the USN, which links not only to submarines on display, but to other museums with submarine exhibits.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 13, @01:14PM (#30089380)

    It's very moving to see objects like this underwater

    Compared to those damn flying submarines...

  • Disappointed (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Raul654 (453029) on Friday November 13, @01:20PM (#30089500) Homepage

    When I first read this headline, I thought they had located the missing midget submarine used to attack Pearl Harbor. (See this [wikipedia.org]) This is not the case. That ship still remains lost.

  • by tekrat (242117) on Friday November 13, @01:31PM (#30089662) Homepage Journal

    Earth's only hope for survival will be to resurrect these two subs as spaceships to kick some Gamilon ass.

    "Leader Dessslok, it's as if we're fighting a ghost ship! How can an old Earth submarine defeat all of Gamilon?"

    Hurry Starforce, there are only 57 days before all life on Earth becomes extinct!

  • by gnunick (701343) on Friday November 13, @01:36PM (#30089746) Homepage
    Although they may be talking specifically about this class of submarine and sub-launched aircraft, the Japanese did attack the US mainland, both with sub-mounted artillery, and sub-launched aircraft.

    And yes the aircraft were recoverable by the sub crew: they were seaplanes, and would be picked up by a crane aboard the sub.

    You can read a summary of US-mainland attacks here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_United_States_territory_in_North_America_during_World_War_II#Japanese_assaults [wikipedia.org]

  • Thank God (Score:5, Funny)

    by elrous0 (869638) * on Friday November 13, @01:44PM (#30089868)
    Thank God those whales and dolphins bombed Hiroshima or we might have had to face more of these things.
  • by gyrogeerloose (849181) on Friday November 13, @01:49PM (#30089940)
    The Freudian implications of a large, phallically-shaped object coated in rubber cannot be ignored.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by StikyPad (445176)

      The only real insight was Freud's obsession with the phallus, and his lack of consideration for basic physics.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The Freudian implications of a large, phallically-shaped object coated in rubber cannot be ignored.

      Especially when it contains lots of seamen.

  • Airplane Carriers... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anachragnome (1008495) on Friday November 13, @06:59PM (#30093414)

    The submarine type mentioned, the one designed to carry folding aircraft and a catapult for launching, was actually used in the only aerial attack on the contiguous United States by the Japanese during WWII (both Alaska and Hawaii were attacked by aircraft) if one does not count the numerous attack balloons sent aloft by the Japanese.

    One of these submarines surfaced off the coast of Oregon and launched one of it's folding aircraft. The plane then flew over forested tracts of land and dropped (by hand!) small incendiary bombs in an effort to start large-scale forest fires. One of these bombs landed on property NW of Langlois, Oregon, property that my Aunt and Uncle owned at the time. Fortunately, the Japanese had not taken into account just how damp the woods along that coast are during the summer months and they simply blew up a few trees. It is not unheard of for it to be raining there in June/July. The desired fires never happened.

    It is unknown what became of the plane, but it is assumed it landed near the submarine (I believe they were float-equipped, but incapable of a water launch and thus needed the catapult), was folded up and stowed below deck again.

    Though I do not recall the title, there is a book on the subject.

    There was also an unverified report of a submarine off the coast of San Diego. An alarm was sounded but the sighting was later questioned.

       

    • Re:Wha? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by chrisj_0 (825246) on Friday November 13, @01:16PM (#30089410)
      some nerds like history.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by cptdondo (59460)

      Well, it's a teaser. It always amazes me at how advanced the Germans and Japanese were in some things, and just how arrogant and stupid the Americans were. (Of course the same could be said for all participants, but as victors, the Americans wrote the history after the war.)

      American Generals refused to believe the early reports of the speed and agility of the Zero. British Generals refused to fund the development of the jet engine until the Germans fielded theirs.

      Now I learn that the Japanese were playin

      • Re:Wha? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Thud457 (234763) on Friday November 13, @01:37PM (#30089754) Homepage Journal

        Well, it's a teaser. It always amazes me at how advanced the Germans and Japanese were in some things, and just how arrogant and stupid the Americans were. (Of course the same could be said for all participants, but as victors, the Americans wrote the history after the war.)

        American Generals refused to believe the early reports of the speed and agility of the Zero. British Generals refused to fund the development of the jet engine until the Germans fielded theirs.

        Now I learn that the Japanese were playing with submarine stealth technology.

        Lots of good stuff for geeks; just gotta do your homework and not wait to be spoonfed.

        Yet the countries with the advanced high-tech military hardware still fell to the swarming hordes that out-produced them materially. A lesson the US probably should keep in mind going into the 21st century.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        The fact that you dont also seem amazed at the arrogance of the Japanese general staff, the German high command, etc. or any officers of those countries seems to indicate that you haven't had an in-depth study of the war. Or any war, for that fact. War is arrogance.

        The axis forces of WWII made many arrogant mistakes, like not believing in convoys (Japanese), not believing allies had broken their codes (Japanese and German), not believing that their own governments could come up with anything like a "death
      • Re:Wha? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by mrisaacs (59875) on Friday November 13, @02:16PM (#30090402)

        The Japanese were convinced that Dolittle's raid was conducted by submarine launched bombers to such an extent they spent an enormous amount of effort developing them.

        Like many such items during the war - these subs attempted too many innovations in one jump and were not reliable. The Germans and the Japanese had a penchant for attempting to produce super weapons as opposed to incremental improvements in existing stuff. Some of what they produced was incredible, but none of it was really ready for prime time, or available in sufficient quantity to significantly have any effect on the war.

        One of the most draconian decisions of the war was on the part of the US - it was recognized that the Sherman was no match for the heavier German tanks. There were some improvements, but the US counted on the fact that we were producing and delivering tanks at a rate that outstripped the Germans ability to destroy them or replace their own.

      • Re:Wha? (Score:5, Informative)

        by cheesybagel (670288) on Friday November 13, @02:35PM (#30090658)
        The Allies also had plenty of leading edge technology. It is hard to have a consistent edge across the entire spectrum. The Allies had more advanced technology in certain areas such as the cavity magnetron for radar, strategic bombers such as the B-17, Avro Lancaster and B-29, fighter aircraft such as the Spitfire, tanks such as the T-34 and IS-2, Bazooka, Katyusha MLRS, code breaking such as ULTRA and MAGIC intercepts. Victory at the Battle of Midway was possible because the USA knew of the attack beforehand from code breaking for example.
        • Re:Wha? (Score:5, Informative)

          by Dunbal (464142) on Friday November 13, @03:42PM (#30091534) Homepage

          The Allies also had plenty of leading edge technology. It is hard to have a consistent edge across the entire spectrum.

                Of course the allies led in technology. That's why they won the war. There's a certain luxury to develop new technologies when you're fighting at arm's length (in the case of Britain post 1940 and the US) vs being right in the thick of things. The Soviets had already won the tank design part - as early as 1941 I believe it was von Rundstedt that commented, on inspecting a captured Soviet T-34: "If ever the Soviets can mass produce this tank, we've lost the war". Individually German tanks were far superior. However they were far more complex, resulting in engineering, maintenance and manufacturing difficulties. The Soviets had a good simple design that could take a beating and was easy to make and maintain.

                Germany was, after the start of Barbarossa and the stall in the offensive, in a fight for her life. That leaves very little budget for R&D. And with 20-20 hind-sight too much of it went to tank and artillery development (a losing proposition because they were going to be beaten by sheer numbers anyway), and not enough of it to asymmetric warfare like U-Boats or aircraft. Imagine a Germany capable of sealing off the North Atlantic with hordes of type XXI U-boats, or bombing the Ural tank factories and the Norfolk shipyards with long range bombers (read about the Amerika Bomber project that got cancelled)/strategic rockets!

                The Japanese were never going to win, period, unless Germany managed a complete victory in Europe and took on the US. Yamamoto even knew this before the war started. They were too small, and trying to grab too much of an empire.

      • Re:Wha? (Score:4, Informative)

        by westlake (615356) on Friday November 13, @03:56PM (#30091680)
        It always amazes me at how advanced the Germans and Japanese were in some things, and just how arrogant and stupid the Americans were

        You might want to read Arthur Clarke's old story "Superiority."

        The wonder weapon often has significant hidden flaws or doesn't make it to the battlefield in time be decisive.

        A downed Zero was recovered from the Aleutians in July 42, rebuilt and flown for testing:

        "The Zero had superior maneuverability only at the lower speeds used in dogfighting, with short turning radius and excellent aileron control at very low speeds. However, immediately apparent was the fact that the ailerons froze up at speeds above two hundred knots, so that rolling maneuvers at those speeds were slow and required much force on the control stick. It rolled to the left much easier than to the right. Also, its engine cut out under negative acceleration [as when nosing into a dive] due to its float-type carburetor.

        "We now had an answer for our pilots who were unable to escape a pursuing Zero. We told them to go into a vertical power dive, using negative acceleration, if possible, to open the range quickly and gain advantageous speed while the Zero's engine was stopped. At about two hundred knots, we instructed them to roll hard right before the Zero pilot could get his sights lined up."

        Advanced U.S. fighters produced toward the war's end still couldn't turn with the Zero, but they were faster and could outclimb and outdive it.

        Without self-sealing fuel tanks, the Zero was easily flamed when hit in any of its three wing and fuselage tanks or its droppable belly tank. And without protective armor, its pilot was vulnerable.

        Koga's Zero [americanheritage.com]

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by jandrese (485)
            A pragmatist might have pointed out that turbo shaft engines were really not practical in the 1940s for land vehicles (it was hard enough to use them in planes) and considerable time and expense was probably saved by not heavily researching them. Even today they're still problematic--the Abrams is a fuel hog with an enormous IR signature.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Raul654 (453029)

      How does that work? See this [wikipedia.org].

      • by gnick (1211984) on Friday November 13, @02:02PM (#30090162) Homepage

        A little tangential here, but it may be interesting to engineering nerds.

        I got a description of some of the workings of standard carrier catapults from a co-worker who used to be stationed on one. This is maybe 20 years old, so our tech may have changed since then. Apparently they have (had?) a supply of hour-glass shaped steel widgets on board color-coded to match the aircraft being launched. When it was time to launch, they would grab the appropriate size/color and insert it as an intentional weak-link in line with the cable before firing up the winch. When the cable was properly tensioned, the steel widget would break and release the cable throwing the plane into the air.

        Kind of a neat design idea if you can't just haul the cable along fast enough to throw the plane.

    • by smitty777 (1612557) on Friday November 13, @01:30PM (#30089634) Journal

      Back in tha day, they had to use a big boom arm for ships without a deck. For recovery, the aircraft would land next to the ship/sub and a big crane would just hoist them out of the water. this page [ussslcca25.com] shows a pretty similar process for an old OS2U-3 Kingfisher. Some pretty cool pix at the bottom of the page. I wouldn't want to be the pilot during recovery.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by stjobe (78285)

            I don't think they did very well - I seem to recall reading that not one was ever used successfully.

            They were used successfully (from the wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]):

            1 April 1945: Six "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. At least one makes a successful attack, with its Ohka hitting one of the 406 mm (16 in) turrets on West Virginia, causing moderate damage.

            12 April 1945: Nine "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. Mannert L. Abele is hit, breaks in two, and sinks. Witnessed by LSMR-189 CO James M. Stewart. Jeffers destroys an Ohka with AA fire 45 m (50 yd) from the ship, but the resulting explosion is still powerful enough to cause extensive damage, forcing Jeffers to withdraw. Stanly is targeted by two Ohkas. One strikes just above the waterline, with the charge punching through the other side of the hull before detonating, causing little damage to the ship, and the other Ohka narrowly missed and crashed into the sea, knocking off the Stanly's ensign in the process

            4 May 1945: Seven "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. One Ohka hits the bridge of Shea, causing extensive damage and casualties. Gayety is also damaged by a near-miss by an Ohka. One "Betty" returns.

            11 May 1945: Four "Bettys" attack the U.S. Fleet off Okinawa. Hugh W. Hadley is hit, suffers extensive damage and flooding. Vessel judged beyond repair.

      • by gyrogeerloose (849181) on Friday November 13, @01:46PM (#30089908)

        wonder if aircraft recovery was even a possibility

        It was. The aircraft were fitting for water landings and the subs had cranes to lift them back on deck.

          • by tengwar (600847) <slashdot@@@vetinari...org> on Friday November 13, @08:18PM (#30094068)
            It used to be common to launch spotter seaplanes off short (30 foot) catapults, running sideways across a battleship or even mounted on top of a gun turret, then using a crane to get them back on board. There's a picture of a Supermarine Walrus being launched halfway down this page. That particular type could land in pretty rough seas: I've seen film of a landing in 4-5' chop. See here [youtube.com] for an open water landing. The father of a friend of mine got pulled out of the drink by rescue Walrus (which I have to be careful not to call by its common name of "Shagbat" in his presence) after he bailed out of a Spitfire. You might also be interested in an account [sandiego.edu] of the first trans-Atlantic flight, which involved forced landings on the sea (this was about two weeks before Alcock and Brown, who had the first non-stop flight).

            By the way, there was also one British submarine seaplane carrier, the M2 [wikipedia.org].

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        This reminded me of some of the more bizarre German aircraft's [greyfalcon.us] of the period (see the vertically launched Bachem Ba 349 Natter). Some of the proposed methods of aircraft/pilot recovery were pretty interesting (from using the plane as a suicide bomber, to breaking off the wings and opening a rear-mounted parachute when fuel runs out). It's also interesting to point out that many of the Japanese submarines were intended for suicide missions themselves [wikipedia.org].
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        4 bangs are required because 3 would leave you with "sanpatsu," and everyone knows that giant reptilian monsters don't need haircuts. It's a matter of cultural sensitivity, my friend - 4 bangs or more.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Urza9814 (883915)

      Like Japan wasn't bombing civilians? Or Germany? Or Britain? Or Russia? Or _ANYONE ELSE_?

      That's how wars were fought in those days. Get over it. We didn't have smart bombs, we couldn't take out a specific building, or even a specific city block. And their war industries were located right in the middle of their major cities. We had no other choices. The only way to stop their military was to carpet bomb their cities, or though a direct ground assault. And do you realize how many _more_ people would have die

One person's error is another person's data.