Not Enough Women In Computing, Or Too Many Men? 686
itwbennett writes "Do geeks really 'drive girls out of computer science,' as the headline of a LiveScience article contends? Blogger Cameron Laird doesn't think so. In fact, 'I don't think "gender issues in computing" is important enough to merit the attention it gets,' says Laird in a recent post. And maybe the problem isn't that there are too few women in computing, but that there are too many men. 'I'm waiting to read the headline: "Women too smart for careers with computers,"' says Laird, 'where another researcher concludes that only "boys" are stupid enough to go into a field that's globally-fungible, where entry-level salaries are declining, and it's common to think that staying up all night for a company-paid pizza is a good deal.'"
Re:Let's make a deal (Score:1, Interesting)
Obviously it has to be Tab or Mountain Dew...
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/chords/code-monkey/
The money issue is not as simple as stated (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been taking my 18 year old to tour colleges as he will be pursuing chemical engineering. Engineering starting salaries across the board (chemical, civil, mechanical, and electrical) are between $50 and $70k.
The solution for many comp sci students is to double major comp sci with one of the above "demand" areas, pass the professional engineering exam, and then the money issue is a non issue. Computer skills are now part and parcel of every engineering profession, so getting paid well to do what you love (if you love computers) should not be difficult.
The challenge for people hell-bent on starting their careers as programmers (as opposed to computer engineers) seems to be that starting programmers are not worth as much.
[By the way, the number of girls on his engineering tours seem to be between 10% and 20%. In other words, nothing there is changing. My son's solution to the ratio issue is to attend a large university where there are more female students overall.]
Re:Cue The Moral Outrage (Score:3, Interesting)
My girlfriend was offered a full scholarship into engineering/computing and turned it down. I went in. She decided to do biology and then med school, she paid it all. Now she makes 4 times what I make.
Yes, I do agree, she made the smart decision. But I choose to defend my decision of engineering/computers with the reasoning: I enjoy what I do, It's my hobby. She cannot do the same, while she enjoys her job, she isn't as enthusiastic about it as I am. She can't break out the knife and do surgery at home. Well, legally, anyway.
I do work long hours and get stuck at work for small increments in pay. This is how it is with many computer people. But remember, there is a BIG difference between JOE IT down the street, and the high-level db admins, enterprise architects, etc. Many of the 'regular' guys never went to university, and it is them who are diluting the wages. The people that did go to university are being stuffed into a field where more and more do-it-yourselfers are getting into it and undercutting costs. Truth is, most IT doesn't require a university educated guy when your nephew or a guy with 5 years 'experience' can do it almost as well...and even if there is a difference, not many small to medium businesses can tell the difference until something very bad happens.
Are you kidding? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am a girl. Being on call all day and all night / programming until mentally exhausted / etc. is not something I am willing to do. So yeah, I'm going into teaching. EVEN THOUGH I AM A GEEK. Thanks for telling me what the working conditions were in the field, Slashdot - you made the decision that much simpler.
Considerably? (Score:5, Interesting)
Programmer 84k http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=programmer&l1=new+york
Garbage man 77k http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=garbage+man&l1=new+york
But the garbage man gets overtime and probably union benefits.
>better social prestige.
Only here.
Re:Are women pushing men out of nursing? (Score:5, Interesting)
No, men just not that interested in being nurses, unless they're gay.
bullshit.
I've got a lot of family members who work various positions in local hospitals, and my sister just went through a medical lab assistant course, and agrees with what I'm saying here.
Saying that men aren't interested is BS, because they're high paying jobs and you spend every class surrounded by ladies. it sounds like a great scam. But when you get there, everyone thinks you're 'just precious' and you end up being the damn bouncer and guy who picks up heavy things in an emergency room, which isn't exactly a job with good promotion potential.
There are a lot of guys who want a stable well paying job with fairly low risk and nice stat holidays. A lot more of them would be getting into the field if there wasn't such a social stigma.
Neither the article or the blog make good points (Score:5, Interesting)
Fortunately their is a comment on the blog that has some interesting insight...
http://www.itworld.com/tictacns [itworld.com]
Not enough Women in Tech
I believe this may be the article that MSNBC was referring to:
http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=54341 [washington.edu]
"It was brought to my attention in an ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) newsletter.
My opinion is that Tech is a tool, a means to get from point A to point B, like a car. I think women want to be the travelers, using Tech to achieve their goals and using the auto industry analogy, they generally do not want to be the mechanics. When we hear about tech, we usually hear about the techies/mechanics, we do not hear about the many other skills that the tech industry requires to thrive and people tend to not pursue things they are not aware of."
That.
Prior to the tech inovations of computers and the internet, we had cars and trains as the feets of an earlier generation where the people who were most into building and working on hotrods were men, but many mechanics have ladies who loved their vets and mustangs. People who have fascination with trains have mostly seemed to come from men as well, though many woman use them as a means of transportation and wouldn't think twice about hopping on a trolly, light rail or subway, though they don't care about how it works, just that it does. To some degree this affects many sciences...
Perhaps this says somethign more about differences between men and women...
Re:From a phsychological point of view... (Score:3, Interesting)
Your reasoning is speculative, and argued against by the existence of matriarchal societies in the past. Regardless, you're arguing contingencies--the fact that our society happens to descend from patriarchal societies says nothing about whether we should remain patriarchal, or view our status quo as somehow not worth challenging.
You mention programming as a male-dominated profession due to an evolutionary trait; I'll counter with medicine, specifically doctors. A hundred years ago, female doctors were unknown; now they make up around 30% of the profession, a figure that's been climbing continuously since the 60s (women were 7% of the doctors in 1970) and is expected to continue to grow. I presume you'd agree that being a doctor is similarly demanding in terms of logic, critical analysis, knowledge, and just generally those scientific skills that are common to both medicine and programming. If your stereotype holds true, than wouldn't all professions that elevate logic above emotion show approximately the same lack of participation by women?
Re:Hypocritical (Score:5, Interesting)
Right. That's why I've caught VP's having meetings in men's rooms, to avoid the presence of female members of staff, and why the engineer in my workgroup who got the sex change was _amazed_ at the number of times "she" was both hit on, and technologically ignored, after her transformation.
Re:Oh please... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:umm yeah (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually from what I've seen, it's the rigor of the academic program that tends to drive away female students (i.e. they're not capable in either math/logic, or programming, or both). And I'm saying this as a female computer science undergraduate observing my fellow peers. I'm not in it for the money; I'm in this field because (a) I like computer science and (b) I'm good at it.
Being driven away from a field purely because of the fact that it's "too geeky" is too generic of an excuse to explain this disparity. For all we know, this disparity occurs for the same reason that nursing has a similar but opposite gender mismatch (as mentioned by countless commentors above me). I am sure personal background and skills have a lot of say in this (both parents were in engineering programs).
I have known way too many girls who display this superiority complex yet have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
Re:Cue The Moral Outrage (Score:3, Interesting)
you better turn her into your wife pretty quick.
I don't see a 'successful doctor' (as you put it) hanging onto a nerdy computer guy forever.
Mod parent up. I was in the same situation as this guy. We actually were married, though. Things were great until we graduated and after her residency she started making four times as much as I did. She was being invited by other hot shot doctors to go on yacht "off site meetings", expensive parties, etc. Something about all that made her change in a fundamental way and she started to become a different person. Eventually she started spending more and more time at the hospital (or so she said) until my cell phone broke one day and I had to use hers and noticed she had text messages from another docter insinuating that they were screwing after hours. She admitted what had been going on, filed for divorce, and just left without batting an eye, as if I was a complete stranger to her. Of course, she ended up telling the divorce court complete lies "he was abusive and hit me, I have to divorce him" and the court sucked it up and she ended up taking the house and the car, while I was admonished by the judge because "men like you are a bane to our society". Now I can even date normal women anymore because everyone thinks I am some sort of wife beater... It's pretty much ruined my life. I thought she was a different person... She WAS a different person... But that changed :(
Re:Considerably? (Score:2, Interesting)
Ah, but if the programmer works for the GOVERNMENT, he DOES get union benefits. Like mine.
Here's my take on the male/female issue, having worked both in the private sector and the public sector.
In the private sector, you don't see very many women because the working conditions SUCK. You have to work ridiculous hours, the pay sucks, you can be outsourced or offshored at any time, there's no union watching your back, and you don't get a pension -- you get a 401K, which isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Women are much less willing to put up with that sort of BS than men are, so most of them aren't interested.
BUT, in GOVERNMENT jobs, you work a 9 to 5 shift, you get great benefits, you get paid for overtime, you can't be fired unless you do something horrible to someone, your union is always watching out for you, and you get a great pension when you retire. Government jobs are GREAT. So, the male/female ratio is actually closer to 50/50.
The point here is, women tend to lean towards jobs that don't have significant negative qualities. They want GOOD jobs, with long-term stability, so they go for the public sector. Men are more willing to accept risk and hassle, so you see more men in the private sector.
They're voting with their feet in other words. It's not discrimination at ALL.
Re:I am seeing it. (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting point. I guess IT workers, tending towards more libertarian/anarcho-capitalist viewpoints, can't get their shit together then?
no girls at university (Score:1, Interesting)
I live in Italy, I'm at the Computer Science Engineering faculty (the one called EECS in USA, Computing in UK). :-)
I started university back in 2002, there were only 4-5 girls in a class of 120+ students. After leaving university for need of working, I reentered to finish it two years ago.
Now there are a little more girls: 10-12 in every class of 120+ students.
Still few.
Same story for Electronic Engineering and for Telecommunications Engineering and some others.
But there are lots of Engineering faculties where the male/female proportion is balanced, such as Business Engineering, and even faculties where there are more girls then boys, such as Biomedical Engineering.
When you subscribe to the university there are no obstacles in the faculty choice, nobody knows why girls never choose computer-related faculties.
Same story for technical high schools: very few girls. It seems that few girls are interested into these subjects. Why? Nobody knows.
But some years later on your workplace you find women complaining that there are more men in the IT industry.
How nice.
Re:Are you kidding? (Score:3, Interesting)
Thanks for telling me what the working conditions were in the field, Slashdot - you made the decision that much simpler.
Trusting slashdot for accurate working conditions is a poor idea. Being on call is reserved for IT pros who maintain something 24/7. There's plenty of Computing jobs that don't require such extreme working conditions.
For example, I work for a Fortune 100 company doing software engineering (writing requirements, designs, some coding, maintenance, etc). I work 40 hrs a week and go home. If (for some reason), I have to stay late one day, I leave early on another. Most of the time, I'm not forced to stay late, but I just want to finish what I'm working on because context switching is annoying. I get paid well, and I get to do things I enjoy in addition to development, like helping interns develop as engineers, small tool development, and I'm currently working through a refactoring book to become a better developer and designer. My point is that not all 'Computing' jobs are IT server maintenance that require a horrible schedule for very little pay, and slashdot is probably a poor example for most of the computing jobs out there.
Another one of these?? (Score:5, Interesting)
How often does this have to be said? Yes, there are more men than women in IT. Why is that? Um, because?
Disclaimer - I'm a woman and I've worked in the IT field for almost 20 years.
Yes, I've found that in general IT is a boy's club. I'm used to being the only woman in the group. And I'm used to the crap that I have to put up with being the only woman. I've been ignored, talked over, dismissed (well, they tried that), and generally excluded. It happens. Grow a pair.
No one is going to go out of their way to make women feel all warm and cozy. So you can't use traditional female tactics to carve out your place. And unfortunately that's what most women fall back on when faced with a difficult situation.
My way of making things tolerable is to take my place on the totem pole relatively early on. I watch the personalities and, sad to say, make the weakest one my bitch. Once I do that then I'm on my way to acceptance. It's how they play, it's how I have to play. YMMV
I've mentored women in IT and it isn't pretty. But if they learn a few tricks they can at least stay long enough to find out if they like the work and can work in the environment.
Re:Coming Right Up (Score:3, Interesting)
If there's one thing geeks are good at, it's picking a postition and sticking to it no matter what. No matter what side is taken, the geek can provide solid -- or at least superficially solid -- evidence to support his take and can continue to argue it, indefinitely if so required, regardless of the course of the argument.
When it comes to topics with any level of subjectivity or doubt, geek arguments become farcical. Witness the conflicting positions on various technologies such as IPv6 or topics like net neutrality or even evolution. A thread around here on gender issues is like a console fanboy war, just with better grammar and spelling.
To return to the topic, my own personal opinion is that the amount of women in computer science has more to do with cultural reasons than biological ones. My undergraduate mathematics course has a gender ratio of about 50/50, and indeed has for several years. Given that computer science is mathematics [cat-v.org], I'm then inclined to believe that there are others factors than biology at play.
Re:Another one of these?? (Score:4, Interesting)
In other words, the best advice for your first day in an IT job is the same advice as for your first day in prison.
How does that go over with women at job fairs?
Re:Oh please... (Score:2, Interesting)
it's not sexism, it's simply a job where more men thrive than women, for obvious reasons. IT is a field based primarily on logic. a greater percentage of men are logical than women.
it's like someone else said with babysitting. that's a highly emotional job. which is why women tend to be better at it.
next thing they'll say is there's not enough black-over-40-used-to-be-a-man-originally-from-the-arctic-circle IT people.
-Tony
Re:Yeah right (Score:5, Interesting)
People really need to read up on sexual abuse, (and other forms of child abuse) because it really is a serious problem. But unfounded paranoia about men is not the solution to the problem. If you are are curious about what can be done to prevent abuse, the BSA has some good guidelines (http://olc.scouting.org/info/ypt.html). The only thing I have a problem with is their instructions to contact responsible individuals at the BSA before contacting child protective services. That is obviously intended primarily to maintain a clean image for the BSA, and it's disgraceful that they've suggested/recommended it.
Re:Yeah right (Score:3, Interesting)
Your whole approach is typical and exactly why the whole issue is dismissed. As soon as someone says "well hey maybe life isn't fair" you attack the messenger instead of explaining why it should be fair.
I grew up on welfare to a single mom (once a programmer!) and fully "benefited" from being dirt poor in the Appalachians. I have no degree because at 18 I was already raising a kid of my own and simply couldn't. I got into the industry by starting at the bottom, ISP tech support, in 95. 15 years later and the only thing I'm guaranteed is that if I work my tail off someone will notice and give me work. I worked my way from minimum wage 15 years ago to a great living today by working my ass off and taking no hand outs. I don't "expect" anything outside of a paycheck that cashes.
Sorry "dude" but excuse me if I laugh at your whole assumption of privilege.
Re:Am I the only female on Slashdot? (Score:5, Interesting)
Females tend to help each other to feel good.
Go ahead and take this with a grain of salt, since this is only one person's experience.
Here is the timeline of my experience in basic training in the air force (not too long ago):
-Put your bag down! Pick your bag up! (equal response)
-Goddammit you need ta march with yer feet hitting the same beat HUP TWO TREE FOR (women win by miles)
-You need ta help your bunkmate get 'is SHIT TOGETHER! (men win by a landslide, as the sister flight is already getting into micropolitics)
-I want your shirts aligned to the micrometer and I want your marching to be in step to the yottasecond! (by this time, the women are falling into factions)
-Graduation is tomorrow, don't f*&^ing embarrass me! (and by now, the women have split into camps while the men have unified)
I agree with what you said up until about 3 weeks into a project. After that, the men catch up on the unified front level and the women fall behind because of the clique thing. I'm not going to say that one side is better since both genders have their strengths, but ask any drill instructor: Women hate each other by the end of boot, and men create life-long bonds. That's generalization but one that fits 90%+ of the people I've known.
-b
Re:Cue The Moral Outrage (Score:1, Interesting)
Was heading to a similar situation but thankfully broke up before it happened. Went out for a number of years with a girl who was doing a phd in med science. Half way through she changed to law. Within 2 years was a totally different person. I started not being invited to functions or parties where her law school buddies would be attending. Basically she became embarassed that her bf was "only" an engineer - not a professional (accountant / lawyer / doctor).
Last laugh is on her though. While I now make 6 figures and have travelled the world with my career and have the best girlfriend who I will be marrying soon, she married a partner in a law firm who promptly cheated on her and instead of supporting her ambitions decided she should be a stay at home wife. Karma can be a real bitch sometimes.
Re:What a stupid excuse. (Score:3, Interesting)
It is the typical "blame the victim" mentality, putting the onus of improvement on the oppressed part rather than the oppressor. Truly despicable frankly.
As a girl in engineering, I really do know how awful it is. I've been the sole girl on a team, told that I'm not a female 'cause I'm useful, lost faith in guys 'cause of the locker room talk, couldn't go to a competition 'cause a prof didn't want to pay for an extra hotel room, and otherwise had my fair share of the drama. I'm first in line to try and recruit more girls in my field, 'cause it's damn lonely sometimes. I was just making the point that it's an environment issue, not active sexism. Hell, when we discussed this at school, we found that one the things that totally kills girls are the professors who are nicer to girls, 'cause we have to work 3 times as hard to get respect in their classes/get other people to take those grade seriously.
When do you become interested? (Score:2, Interesting)
I first got involved in computing when I was 8yo, and typing, doing excel and tinkering with hypercard.
a field that's globally-fungible, where entry-level salaries are declining, and it's common to think that staying up all night for a company-paid pizza is a good deal
Never really entered my mind at the time. It seems to me that at the time a girl would not have been encouraged to take such an interest in computing at that age, if not actively discouraged.
The time that most of us at /. really developed our interest in things geeky were before we started noticing the fairer sex, and it would appear that we managed to bypass that altogether. I don't think that geeks tend to drive off women from the profession, I think that the initial interest is never truly engendered there to begin with.
It would be an interesting survey to ask women who have worked in computing for 5+ years, why they initially joined the profession. Then run the same survey on a comparable group of men, and compare why they are where they are.