China Debuts the World's Fastest Train 491
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ScuttleMonkey
from the us-falls-behind-again dept.
from the us-falls-behind-again dept.
An anonymous reader writes "China unveiled their new high speed train that clocks in at an average of 217 mph. China's new rail service travels through 20 cities along its route, connecting central China and less developed regions to the larger and more industrial Pearl River Delhi. Seimens, Bombardier and Alstom worked together to design and build this feat of modern transportation, which topped out at a whopping 245mph (394km/h) during trial runs earlier in December."
Re:How hard is it to have something like this in U (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not hard, just expensive. Unlike the Chinese we actually have to pay market rates to compensate people for the right of way for the rails. Seizing private property and forcing the owners to accept a pittance in return just won't work in the U.S.
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if you want someone to blame, blame US corporations for sending jobs to China and the US government for allowing trillions of dollars of trade deficit with China, that enables their government to be the economic powerhouse it is. The biggest abusers of human rights in the world is not China--it is the multinational corporations, many of them headquartered in the US, that exploits people in developing countries for cheap labor and props up dictatorial regimes so long as they make it easy and profitable for them to do business. And if you want to find out how these corporations got so powerful, all you need to do is go look to the Americans whose insatiable desire for cheap mass-produced goods has fed their gluttony with their hard-earned dollars.
You want this high-speed rail technology in the US? Stop running up all that credit card debt. Stop turning over your livelihood and savings to buy your own little slice of the American McDream(tm).
Re:China A Developing Country? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yup (Score:1, Insightful)
I first thought "Oh, come on. I am european too but it isn't that difficult to use google calculator for instant answer: http://www.google.com/search?q=217+miles+to+kilometres [google.com]. You are just being rediculous now."
Then I looked at TFA (sorry, guys). It actually has the next paragraph:
Averaging 217 mph (350 km/h), the new train is faster than a speeding bullet train, and will link Wuhan in central China to Guangzhou in the south, covering a total distance of 663 miles (1,068 km). The new rail service will cut the travel time between the cities from over 6 hours down to 2 hours and 45 minutes
As it was already mentioned in TFA, the submitter could have just... not decided to leave it out. Hell, he could have just used that paragraph.
Re:How hard is it to have something like this in U (Score:4, Insightful)
Seizing private property and forcing the owners to accept a pittance in return just won't work in the U.S.
I wish you were correct, but since Kelo v. New London, I have to disagree.
-jcr
Re:China A Developing Country? (Score:3, Insightful)
But if they give up their "developing country" status, they can't play that card in demanding concessions from developed countries any more.
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:5, Insightful)
Not just the US, mind you, but the entire western world that is more than eager to offload manufacturing to China. We're all guilty of turning two blind eyes to save a buck, but I guess as long as we occasionally get to protest China's abuses in a public forum or some magazine opinion piece, all's well.
Re:How hard is it to have something like this in U (Score:5, Insightful)
Kelo v. New London was about the government being able to use eminent domain to free up propety for commercial development. As far as I've seen it had nothing to do with the amount of compensation given to people for their property, and in Kelo v. New London the plaintiffs were given market value for their property.
Re:How hard is it to have something like this in U (Score:5, Insightful)
as for long distance rail, Amtrak is already unreliable. there is no reason to think that a new high speed train will be reliable and there is no benefit over flying.
I think there is some reason to think high-speed rail would be more reliable. One of Amtrak's major problems right now is that they don't own the rails they use, they share them with freight companies. A new high-speed rail line, however, would be built specifically for passenger service and would not have this problem.
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it's saying that if you stop shopping at Wal-Mart, you'll stop buying stuff made in China, and so stop financing their human-rights abuses.
Wwhich is wrong twice:
1. China was committing human rights abuses long before prosperity, even before Mao. Cutting off the money will NOT make things better.
2. You cannot avoid buying stuff made in China, unless you pay very close attention to what you buy and where. And even then, you will be buying some stuff made in China, and made with stuff gotten from China.
We need to lose the 'don't buy Chinese stuff' mentality, and stop discouraging industries from making stuff here in the U.S.
We could be buying stuff made in Japan and South Korea, and Taiwan, but even those industries are beholden to China too often.
This will take decades to fix.
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:4, Insightful)
I see how this works: it's too hard to do what's right, so let's not bother to try. And: they were doing it anyway, so why should we have to give up cheap goods?
Re:China A Developing Country? (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems to me that when China has some of the best developed infrastructure in the world, it really can't be considered a developing country any more. It is developed. Sure, maybe not all areas of China are fully developed, but you could state the same thing about any country, including the US.
The opposite of a developing nation, like China, is not developed, as in film, but a decaying nation, like the USA.
Once China has a couple unmaintained bridge collapses, maybe a few regional power failures, some abandoned cities like Detroit, then they will no longer be a developing nation.
Re:Pearl River Delta?? (Score:3, Insightful)
I think this thread is the one where "WOOSH!" is completely applicable!
It seems a sad irony that Japan, a tiny country with little land mass has the world's fastest trains, while the US and its huge land mass seemingly has the world's slowest.
Why do the Europeans* have better roads and faster trains than us? Maybe there's something to that "socialism" after all!
*yes, I realise that Japan isn't in Europe, smartass.
China's Achievements (Score:4, Insightful)
The primary reason for this though, is that China is taking the massive amount of money flowing into the country and they're choosing to spend it on improving the economy through public works projects. Building skyscrapers, subways, etc. require lots of unskilled manpower, something that China has in abundance. Any problem, like digging a hole, laying pipe, or other manual labor tasks, that can be accomplished in greater scale by simply throwing raw manpower at it.... well, China is unsurpassed in its ability to throw raw manpower at something.
Why can infrastructure like this not be built in the U.S.? Because we don't have 300 million unskilled laborers who will work their ass off for a few bucks a day. We don't have a government that has the authority to just displace hundreds of people in order to build a subway station without going through a lot of red tape. In order to keep up with China in this area, we'd have to give up a lot of the values we treasure for the sake of progress, which is something most of us here on
You can like or hate the policies in China all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that their massive overpopulation of unskilled labor is getting employed and their infrastructure is developing extremely fast.
Re:Big Picture: this is no surprise at all (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How hard is it to have something like this in U (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's subsidize rail transport at the same rate we subsidize road and air transport, and then we can compare reliability figures.
NJ is probably a poor example, since we have the highest road density in the country, but we spend BILLIONS annually on road transport, and less than 1% of that on rail transport (though the building of the new tunnel across the Hudson will bridge some of the funding gap, pardon the pun).
And as for rental cars, public transportation at airports... that is easily solvable. You can run light rail from the high-speed rail stations to the airports (which would make a lot of sense anyway, to connect all your transport systems). You can even place your high-speed rail station adjacent to your airports.
Poor example. The Acela is not a high-speed train (maybe in comparison to regular commuter rail service -- but nothing like what is possible if we were willing to build the infrastructure -- a real high-speed train from NY to Boston would be about 60 minutes tops). And NY-to-Boston is not a 90-min trip time via plane (how long to get to the airport instead of getting to Penn Station via mass transit? Do you still plan on arriving only 30 mins before departure time? Good luck in today's airports... 30 mins is almost never enough time when flying out of any of NYC's three major airports.
I don't know why you use old examples for flight times, and examples of existing rail (instead of the high-speed rail being discussed) to make your anecdotal analysis. But I think your blanket negativity on rail transport needs a good looking-over... you might be surprised.
Re:Fuel efficiency of this train vs airplane? (Score:5, Insightful)
The trouble is a project of that size usually requires some level of state/federal organisation or funding to secure the necessary investment from private funding and the power to buy the land. Which in the USA seems to cause foaming at the mouth and long rants about the evils of communism.
(I'm assuming here a new high speed railway would require a new less bendy track than already exists)
More accurately... (Score:2, Insightful)
...European and North American companies debut the worlds fastest train in China.
Re:Fuel efficiency of this train vs airplane? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's just admit it.
China has got our economy by the balls and we can't do much without getting neutered.
Re:China's Achievements (Score:5, Insightful)
Americans used to value hard work for an honest day's pay. And you have millions who don't work at all.
I agree that China's authoritarian government and a large population has its advantages but it also has
downsides, which the US doesn't have.
It's time for Americans to stop bitching and whining - stand up, think for yourselves and tape your assholes
shut so the moneyed interests can stop blowing smoke up them.
It's not too late to reverse the slide of the American Dream - but the clock is ticking and time is fast running out.
Re:Big Picture: this is no surprise at all (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't kid yourself. People used to say the same thing about Japan.
And increasingly are saying similar things about South Korea and Taiwan as well.
In China's case though, the country will likely straddle both high and low end segments. The richer coastal regions will continue to climb the value lander, while low-end manufacturing probably will be pushed into the poorer interior, where labor will remain cheap enough to sustain it for some time.
Re:Gads, I wish that I had my mod points (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a crock. Those nations are "criminal" nations because we do not do business with them. It's intellectually easy to paint those nations as criminals and enemies, when we have contributed to their situation. You think they'd view America as an enemy if we weren't busy fucking around with their governments over the past 50-60+ years?
If you want to gripe about a nation, at least have your GD definitions right. What you consider a "criminal" nation is not fact, it is your opinion (that lacks substantiation). What laws are those nations violating that make them criminals? What crime have they committed and been convicted of? By many countries' standards, the US is a "criminal" nation... hell, we imprison far more of our citizens than anyone else, for something that is not a crime in some countries.
Re:Not seeing it. (Score:3, Insightful)
With all that said, the bubble is about real estate. Economists say that it is massively overvalued. Far more than America or Japan was. And real estate is very distinct from Raw Materials.
Finally, my guess is that if China pulls a fast one on America (which I expect), then I think that EU leaders will realize that they are also being set-up for massive falls. As it is, western leaders are finally starting to gripe out loud. I believe that WTO will shortly be asked to do something about it.
If China frees slowy, then all nations will be Ok (including CHina).
OTH, if China plays games, then we are 18% of their exports and that is around 4% of their GDP. That is major hit in any economy. Likewise, if they do decide to plat this game, then you can likely count on the majority of the western nations likely deciding to find other places to work with. That would hit them more than 10%.
And as to them switching away from the greenbuck, I wish that they would. OPEC is already quietly doing so. They are considering either the Euro (not likely), or Iran's idea of a gold coin (which I think is a great idea). Would this make us poor relative to other nations? Yup. Would it destroy America? Nope. Just like EU, America is capable of standing on its own (barring resources being blocked). And yes, we would quickly get back our manufacturing.
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not saying 'give up'. Far from it. Do something productive:
- Re-establish onshore manufacturing. As in stop penalizing offshoring with tax, immigration, and other policies.
- Educate ourselves. A local newspaper ad claims that in Arizona, if you eat at a chain restaraunt, $17 of every $100 of your bill stays in the local economy, while if you eat at a locally-owned restaraunt, $47 of every $100 stays. I dunno or care about the exact numbers. Buying goods made in foreign countries can't be as productive or profitable to our economy as buying them made here. And yet, I wonder how that works with automobiles....
- Change the attitude. Maybe we can't make crap in the U.S. that is competitively priced with foreign crap. Ok, at least lets focus on the right products. Perhaps flat-panel displays, consumer electronics, and clothing?
- Also, understand the reality (point 2 revisited). Why do Nike etc. assemble sneakers in Vietnam? Besides cheap labor, they avoid problems with regulatory agencies regarding working conditions such as hours, lighting, pollution. Just the adhesives used are often either banned or conditions controlled so that it is much cheaper to manufacture overseas and avoid the protections. How can we convince Vietnam to raise their standards so that we can effectively take back that business? Not likely. So perhaps we need to work with manufacturers to create products and processes that are economically viable in the U.S. Or deal with it and see if a sneaker maker exists in the U.S. And one does. New Balance.
It is hard to find stuff NOT made in China. I hate buying shoes, because no matter the brand, they all seem to be made in China. I treasure the shirts I have made in India, Bangladesh, even Brunei, though of course some of these countries are not models of freedom and tolerance. But lately, anything but China has been my goal. It's been a while since I coudl find any made in the U.S., even Brazil or Puerto Rico, where the plants in my former home state went to. It ain't easy.
But give up? Nope.
Re:How hard is it to have something like this in U (Score:4, Insightful)
The decision flew in the face of the takings clause of the 5th amendment.
Not only that, it flew in the face of the purpose of government in the first place, which is to secure our life, liberty, and property. By acting as the agent of the thieves, the local government in New London violated the homeowner's rights, and by permitting them to do it, the Supreme Court of the United States added one example to their list of failures to uphold their duty.
-jcr
Re:Everything is made there anyways... (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus anyone who delays the project quickly became an involuntary organ donor.
That's the kicker, isn't it? Over here in the Netherlands, we have finally come to a decision, I think, perhaps, to go ahead and extend the A4 around Delft to connect to the A20 at Rotterdam. This concerns building a few miles of road for which the grade already has been laid (if you check Google maps). This is a decision that has taken 40 years, and I really wish I was kidding... Most infrastructure projects are decided upon a lot quicker but most will still take years, and when construction finally gets underway, it will be put on hold again for any crappy rare-ass beetle that turns up at the site. (Of course if the construction guys find the beetle first, it means the immediate extinction of said beetle). Somehow I suspect you don't get a lot of that in China
Re:China allready got worlds fastest train... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:China debuts human rights abuses (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, correlation is not causation, although intuitively it makes a lot of sense - wealthier people seem to consider themselves more important, demand more power, education, have better communications
It could be argued the other way around - free people are more productive (e.g. consider the productivity of slaves vs hired workers), and therefore more freedom leads to better economy.
Which one it is in reality is very much unclear. For all we know, it could be that both modern democracy (including the concept of inherent human rights), and the economic prosperity of the First World both stem from something more fundamental in its culture, and hence the correlation, while not exactly coincidental, doesn't imply any direct relationship here. Or it could be just a historical accident (someone had to be the first one to get lucky, and Europeans just did, and then used the advantage thus gained to pwn everyone else).
It's also worth noting that some authoritarian societies not rooted in Western culture seem to do rather well in terms of economics (e.g. Singapore).
Re:Nice (Score:3, Insightful)
Right, because we saw so many airline ads attacking Prop 1A.
Sometimes a conspiracy theory is just a theory, dude.
I'm all for high speed rail (I voted for 1A), but if you run the numbers, it's just really hard to compete against airlines in both cost effectiveness and speed. There's sort of a sweet spot for high speed rail at medium distances around 200 to 500 miles... shorter than that and it's usually easier to drive, and longer than that the hassle of going through security at the airport gets made up by the faster speeds of the planes.
San Francisco to San Diego by car is around 8 hours, 10 hours if there's traffic in LA.
San Francisco to San Diego by high speed rail (200MPH and own right of way) is going to be around 3 to 3.5 hours, counting stops and showing up early to the station.
San Francisco to San Diego by plane takes around 2.5 to 3 hours, counting showing up early, 75 minutes in flight, and waiting for your baggage.
With numbers like that, I'd take the high speed rail, just to avoid the lines at the airport, and assuming the price is cost competitive. Any longer than that (high speed rail would take 12 hours to get to DC, versus less than half that by air) and air wins.
Re:China A Developing Country? (Score:5, Insightful)
No you cannot. For example in Western-Europe especially in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland or Austria the countries are very well "developed". In Germany you can get to a highway (Autobahn) in a 50 km radius. Also most towns are accessible by train. And every big city is connected to others on an hourly schedule (with fast trains) and additional local trains.
Those studies were a bit lacking (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing, but if that's the study that was quoted in the WSJ, it was definitely lacking. It was comparing the environmental cost of building rail tracks plus fuel consumption of the trains, but only the fuel consumption of the planes but not the environmental cost of building the airports -- and those things take up a LOT of space, esp. if you take into account the amount of real estate that gets depreciated because of the noise.
In any case, you can power trains by nuclear power, but also wind mills or solar -- can't do that with planes. Also trains can do regenerative breaking, and inject back power when decelerating.
Re:Good for China ! (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus there are all of those worthless Jews in Israel that we keep shoveling money at, oh, and the worthless Egyptians who we give money to so they won't kill the worthless Jews. Then there's all of the money we spend defending the worthless Japanese and South Koreans against China, and the money we spend on NATO, a complete waste since the Soviet Union collapsed and the current Russian army can't even manage to invade and subdue Chechnya or Georgia. Oh, and all of the billions we spent invading Iraq because dumbfucks like Dick Cheney thought that Osama Bin Laden was BFF with Saddam Hussein, and the billions we're going to spend in Afghanistan so that President Obama can cover his ass and look tough. Yeah, if we stopped pissing our money away defending a bunch of useless countries who do nothing for us and building high-tech weapons systems that never come in on time or budget and don't work when they finally do come in we'd probably be able to reduce our deficit and build some bitchin new high speed rail projects. Who am I kidding though, that will never happen.
Re:Big Picture: this is no surprise at all (Score:2, Insightful)
In our pursuit of ever cheaper crap most of us forgot that freedom is not free. . . . C'mon people. . . wake up!
China is not Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, or even Singapore. It's not a free and democratic country and the last 10 years proved that we don't have a snowball chance in hell of either luring China toward democracy or contain China's brand of authoritarian capitalism. Combine our insatiable desire for imports and China's currency manipulation and we created our current financial meltdown. Sadly, the extraordinary efforts we made to save our economy ultimately benefited our biggest creditor, China. More bullet trains for China.
So here we are facing a downward financial and technological spiral and instead of looking to Germany or Japan for inspiration, our politicians want to frame every single political debate around religion or what they think the bible says. . . sad. . damn sad. .