The Twelve Most Tarnished Brands In Tech 430
harrymcc writes "Polaroid, Netscape, CompuServe, Westinghouse, Heathkit — these were once among the most respected names in the technology business. They're still around, but what's happened to them is just plain sad. I took a look at the tragic fates of a dozen mighty brands that have, in one way or another, fallen on hard times."
This is the title (Score:4, Interesting)
Is it sad, or is it what the company deserved? How many other companies deserve this same fate but are being propped up because "They're too big to fail"?
Re:HP (Score:3, Interesting)
To be Fair... (Score:5, Interesting)
How about Slashdot?
I know, we're the converted, but think about how Gizmodo and Engadget have changed how "Tech News" is reported.
Slashdot used to be the ONLY good place to get tech news. I remember telling someone "Slashdot is like the 'What's New' of Popular Mechanics, but free!"
I wouldn't even mention slashdot now. I'm not leaving, but I don't see any reason to convert others...
Re:Radio Shack (Score:5, Interesting)
Tandy/Radio Shack is a really sad story. From the late '70s and into the mid-80s they produced a helluva lot of computers, including the Model 100, which was pretty much the first real notebook computer (compare it to the Osbornes, where you literally packed around a monster with a CRT screen). The first *nix machine I ever worked on was a Tandy 6000 with a Motorola 68000 chip, a Z80 I/O copressor, 1mb of RAM, two 20mb hard drives and a five port RS232 card. For the time, the machine kicked some serious ass, and we were using it into the mid-1990s for the multiuser accounting software, using dumb terminals. They, like Commodore, made bad decisions, like sticking with an 8bit CPU for the CoCo3 instead of moving into the 16bit world (except with their PC clones).
Last but not least, Radio Shack made some of the best beginners programming manuals out there. I learned BASIC on a 20k MC-10 (the CoCo cousin that ran a 6803 and had a chiclet keyboard), and even wrote a PacMan-like game using semigraphics mode.
Re:Radio Shack (Score:5, Interesting)
Funny Radio Shack story - stopped into the local store a few years ago to pick up some random connectors, etc. Before offering to help me find what I needed, was offered a cell phone and then informed that they have to special order everything on my list. I asked them what they DO offer and was basically told cell phones and a few cables.
My response: "So you're essentially a more expensive and less useful version of Best Buy?".
The guy gave me a foul look and I turned on my heel and left.
For the record, I worked at Radio Shack for a year or so way back when. You were required to take and pass training courses (on basic electrical theory and how to identify and match components such as resistors, capactors, etc) and failure to do so meant termination.
I refuse to even enter their stores anymore.
Re:To be Fair... (Score:4, Interesting)
I respectfully disagree, for several key reasons:
1. There are still some geek celebrities that pop in here from time to time. If we're talking Star Trek, it's not totally uncommon for CleverNickName to show up. Bruce Perens will not infrequently make an appearance on issues he knows about (or when the article is about something he did). And so forth.
2. There are still some comments that are insightful / interesting / informative that are modded as such. It ain't universal, but it's there. And plus, some of the funny comments really are funny.
3. There's a lot less spam-type articles. Roland and * * Beatles Beatles are both not showing up anymore. There's still the occasional slashvertisement, but they're less common than they used to be.
It's not, and hasn't been for a really long time, just about reporting technology news.
Easy to summarize. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Radio Shack (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to agree, pretty sad. I still wander in once or twice a year. Last time I went in I told them I was looking for some solder wick. The salesman went and looked, then told me they didn't have any. I looked myself anyway, and sure enough he was looking straight at it, but it was labeled desoldering braid. I still remember as a kid when I could go in for something like an LED and they would recommend a current limiting resistor. Now, I go in for solder wick and they recommend a new cell phone to go with it, and they couldn't tell a transistor from a resistor if their life depended on it.
Re:IMAX seems to be slipping also (Score:1, Interesting)
The complaint isn't with new technology, it's with the reuse of an established brand on an inferior product.
To use your example, this would be equivalent to re-branding DVD's as Blu-Ray discs. If you purchased a Blu-Ray disc, and it had a DVD-quality film on it, would that tarnish your impression of Blu-Ray?
Personal Anecdote (Score:5, Interesting)
I was on the phone with HP Premium Printer Support when the official announcement was made in their office that Carly was leaving.
All hell broke loose. People were screaming, crying, shouting for joy. It sounded like total pandemonium. It sounded like the celebrations of slaves suddenly freed from a cruel master.
It was nearly impossible to finish the call. Having worked under cruel/crazy/incompetent bosses before and known the joy of release when they move on, I couldn't help but be happy for them. HP may have never recovered but for at least a few minutes those poor folks had hope, God bless 'em.
Re:Silicon Graphics (Score:4, Interesting)
Not just Silicon Graphics, but also Cray.
Alas, how the mighty have fallen.
Re:Radio Shack (Score:3, Interesting)
Similar. A few years ago (03/04) I bought a gumstick size vid camera [pixera.com]. It came with a 110v wallwart. Wanting to use it mobile/helmetcam, I set about to build a battery pack for it. Camcorder in the backpack, gumstick feeding into it.
At RadioShack, I showed the guy both ends..."I need to mate X + Y".
'We don't have anything like that'
"yes you do, this is RadioShack!"
He walked off looking confused. I rooted around in the bins for a few minutes, and found the connector I needed.
As I paid the $2.50, he asked me if I needed a new cellphone and associated plan. [facepalm]
Re:Diebold? (Score:4, Interesting)
Jeez, we went around this particular block on the last Diebold story. Treason is strictly (and narrowly) defined in the constitution itself and no act Diebold has been accused of even comes close to matching that definition. You have to either be making war on the US or giving aid and comfort to those who are.
DEC at least died an honorable death (Score:4, Interesting)
Unlike the companies in the article, the DEC brand is not being pimped by a lousy shell company to licensors that are slapping it on discount pantyhose.
Re:IMAX seems to be slipping also (Score:5, Interesting)
And don't get me started on Dolby.
Napster? A once-great brand? (Score:2, Interesting)
Napster came pre-tarnished, and if anything it's been rehabilitated.
Re:To be Fair... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HP didn't make the list? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Personal Anecdote (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed! I had a couple support tickets open with HP at that time. In one of them the tech and I were exchanging an email two or three times every hour, trying to troubleshoot a group of networked printers; I saw the announcement in my news feed and mentioned it to the tech in my next email back, his response was along the lines of "Thank god the bitch is leaving, we're all celebrating after work!" I was transferred to another tier up a couple days later because that tech didn't have the expertise to solve the problem we were having, but the relieved and happy attitude was obvious in the calls and emails there, too.
It seemed to me that after that there was a noticeable improvement in their tech support, especially on the phone. I hadn't been paying much attention to it at the time, but it was obvious afterward just how badly that woman screwed that company up.
Slashdot's article [slashdot.org] was quite a fun read as well :)
I still use HP printers exclusively at home, and recommend them to customers as well. They aren't perfect, but they are certainly among the best. My most reliable printer, a PSC 2350, has performed like a champ since I bought it new, despite having been dismantled and rebuilt a couple times to clean out enormous amounts of cat hair and assorted species of dust bunnies. Like another poster mentioned, I tend to use the raw drivers and my own apps, but I have a lot of customers who are happy with their software as well. (Hint: Don't update unless it's absolutely necessary for a bug fix).
I've also found that overall their printers tend to be the ones that work the best with linux.
SB
Schwinn (Score:1, Interesting)
Not "high-tech" related, but you could add Schwinn bicycles [msn.com] to that list.
Re:Adobe (Score:4, Interesting)
It's fairly simple. First, Apple made expensive hardware, with a crap OS that was like Windows 3.1 (albeit with a better interface), while Microsoft was selling Windows NT for low-cost workstations using the Pentium Pro processor.
Then Apple started selling Final Cut Pro. That was about the time Adobe decided they would not bother to make software that ran on a competitor vendor's hardware. I guess it did not help that Adobe had years of software written in C++, while Steve Jobs wanted everyone to program in Objective-C for Ma OS X, either. Apple later developed Objective-C++, but for quite a while they lost developer mindshare when they switched to MacOS X.
Re:Heathkit (Score:2, Interesting)
I wondered if any other /.ers knew about Heathkit. My grandfather worked for Heathkit in the 20's and at one point, was offered a substantial share of the company which he turned down as it was just stock, not money. He knew Edward Heath and he helped build airplanes such as the "Baby Bullet"(http://www.airracinghistory.freeola.com/aircraft/Heath%20Baby%20Bullet.htm), perhaps Heath's most famous plane. His best friend was guy named Roger Lorenzen,(http://ww_heco.home.mindspring.com/wwheco2/hsp_sup2.html) who was perhaps one of the finest wooden propeller makers in the US. They both lived in Niles, Michigan, near Benton Harbor where Heathkit proper began. I have photos of him assembling Heath airplanes at their factory in Chicago.
Re:HP didn't make the list? (Score:2, Interesting)
I have to disagree - The Deskpro line and their servers were junk too. There was a brief shining moment when they rose to acceptable, but it was all to short, and *expensive*!
I had to support our customers that *insisted* on using these systems in a 24/7 environment. What lowered the score for me was that *everything* was custom! Even the bloody Power Supply was "Custom" compaq only. Oh No, off the shelf ram wouldn't do, won't work - gotta have Compaqs special buffering, or voltage, etc... The geometry of the motherboards wasn't even standard!
And of course, none of our globally distributed customers wanted to keep a cold spare on site... Enough, they were non-compatible C**P.
Re:Some substitutions (Score:3, Interesting)
As for EA, I'd argue it would've been a fit contender some years ago, but they've improved their image and products a lot in the last few years. I think that deserves some recognition.
There are a few mores that I feel could've made the list, namely IBM (they're still around and strong in certain areas, but they were KINGS of computing back then) or Xerox (again, they were great innovators and now are just one business in a sector). I'd also argue that ATT made another large mistake: Bell Labs. This place was a centre of innovation and ingenuity, but do you really hear about them often nowadays?
Re:IMAX seems to be slipping also (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't know what you think you know.
Interlaced DVDs have nothing really to do with VHS. They're not upscaled VHS tapes by any stretch. The used to make some of the DVDs might be interlaced, but almost never are those masters VHS tapes (I say almost never because maybe there's an example of it happening at some point; I'm sure as hell not aware of it). At worst, Betacam tape (not the consumer BetaMax), more likely D2 tape. Well, these days, I'd like to hope it's DigiBeta or some other component format being sent.
The interlacing can come from multiple sources, it's usually from the editing process (via interlaced studio equipment). Sometimes these things were introduced by the Japanese company, sometimes they're introduced by the localization company.
And there's no point in making a BD with DVD level resolution on it; one can just make a DVD, which will play in a BD player (and not cutoff your market).
Re:HP didn't make the list? (Score:5, Interesting)
And then, Howard went batshit crazy, and the company went downhill. Hughes still does some pretty cool stuff, but it's nothing like that it used to be.
Hughes doesn't do anything anymore. Hughes no longer exists. My father worked for Hughes Aircraft from college graduation to retirement. The decline of Hughes Aircraft Co. had little to do with Howard going nuts. Hughes was still going full bore in the defense industry when HH died in '76. They continued to succeed until 1985, when the seeds of their destruction were sown. That's when the Feds ruled that Hughes Medical Institute, a non-profit research foundation which was essentially the "heir" to the HH fortune and owned Hughes Aircraft, had to divest themselves of the hugely profitable subsidiary to keep its non-profit status. That's when General Motors bought them and merged them with Delco Electronics to form the GM-Hughes Electronics division. At this point, Hughes was making everything from radar systems, to missiles, to satellites, to communications systems.
At any rate, GM being run by a bunch of fools and clowns, it was inevitable that the party would end. The collapse of the Soviet Union hit the defense industry pretty hard, and GM acquired General Dynamics' missile division and rolled it into Hughes. The inevitable decline was delayed by the fact that Hughes launched a profitable commercial business in '94, a satellite television business called "DirecTV"--- perhaps you've heard of it. None of this helped in the long run, though. GM was no better at operating a business sensibly then than it is now. Eventually the realized they were out of their league, and sold off the Hughes Aircraft portion of Hughes Electronics to Raytheo. The DirecTV division was sold to Rupert Murdoch. The Hughes Space and Communications division was sold to Boeing.
My father worked the last 3 years of his career as a Raytheon employee because of this. Raytheon is a company run by shitbag assholes. For decades Hughes was forced by the DoD to "second source" critical components from Raytheon. My father had years worth of stories about how the shit they'd manufacture was sloppy and not made to specs, and how it caused them interminable problems with Raytheon parts failing. When they acquired Hughes, they basically turned it into "more Raytheon". Employees were treated like shit, benefits cut to nothing, and retirees who were previously allowed to buy health insurance as part of the Hughes group plan were told to "suck it". Perhaps the world was no longer a place where a company like Hughes could exist. Perhaps only "McRaytheon" type companies can make money nowadays. All I know is that Raytheon tolerates a lot more incompetence than Hughes did, and as a result of them buying Hughes, they are now the only manufacturer of missiles in the US, and it's all done to "Raytheon qwality". Just as well, I guess. Not much air combat anymore.
So no, it really was GM that put Hughes on the chopping block, and Raytheon that finally swung the axe. The problem may have started with HH not having a will, but a bunch of Oldsmobile salesmen in $200 suits are what really killed them.
Re:Where would 3d gaming be without... (Score:2, Interesting)
#9 was great, I was sorry when they went bust like most of the others. I had a #9 in my old Dell, and was having some problem with either Windows or some game. #9 support told me it was a BIOS problem, and sent me a new BIOS for the video card. No, they didn't email me a flash update (I can't remember if I even had email yet at the time), they mailed me a big fat EPROM stuck in a piece of carbon anti-static foam inside a padded envelope at no charge. That's customer service.
The Shack (Score:1, Interesting)
Also, how about Radio Shack? Can you even get parts there anymore?
Yes. I live in Minnesota, I've been to half a dozen of their stores. The closest two both sell passive components, and ICs. A surprising amount of good things are still hiding in the dark corners.
It was only two years ago I bought a circuit board etching kit from them, which was my first exposure to it. They sell Ferric Chloride, somehow without being sued by the mothers of the world. I've also seen a kit there for learning about microcontrollers. They've got generic power supplies, power resistors, solder, electrical tape, good tools and wire suitable for breadboarding, and the desoldering iron I've used over the past decade (still the same one, oddly).
And for icing on the cake: A cute gal working there was really interested in me (geekese:thought I was sexy) for buying a bunch of Timer ICs and 10W power resistors. Opportunities to impress women, are priceless.
What is the common theme behind decline? (Score:2, Interesting)
I have been reading the posts trying to figure out why so many of these iconic technical-industrial organizations have slid.
Most of the posts associate the decline of organizations with a change of management. The management stories tell similar tales: where there is a replacement of management, the decline is expressed as selling off low performing assets and re-organizing to reduce costs.
Most of this discussion doesn't dwell on the massive de-industrialization of the USA. Around 1980, factories in the Far East were making electronic assemblies for less than the price of the American parts and American labor in a Heathkit kit.
But with the shift to tech manufacturing in the far East, did American corporations lose control of the products they made?
Here is a question; Have Apple and Hewlett-Packard done something different with their manufacturing organization? Do Apple and H-P own offshore factories in a way that enables them to prevent their proprietary products from being copied by others? Do these two companies retain a manufacturing control that prevents them from becoming a rented out brand like Bell & Howell?
I know from anecdote that the 80's era computer maker Morrow had great difficulty with it's computer mother board. The board was engineered in Silicon Valley and the Japanese board maker either sent no boards or way way too many. The result was first Morrow had trouble meeting demand, then it had too many boards as the market changed. Morrow went out of business around 1983 leaving behind a warehouse of unsold components that became one of Oakland's best computer surplus stores for several years afterward.
Robert Samuelson's The Great Inflation and It's Aftermath sort of tells the story of the decline of American manufacturing. The USA and Canada exited World War II with their manufacturing plants intact. By the end of the Regan Presidency, the de-industrialization of America was a sideshow mixed in with high interest rates and the second energy crisis.
Oh dude.... (Score:3, Interesting)
I personally owned 4 different Amigas - including installing Linux on an A3000. For a little while, I sold them. I belonged to CATS. I posted on comp.sys.amiga before the Big Split to all the subgroups. I jousted with -MB- and laughed my ass off at BLAZEMONGER! I even maintained the Amiga Netrek port for a year or so (not that I accomplished much with it)
I own an original copy of the Deathbed Vigil.
The Amiga is DEAD. Yes, there are still Amigas functioning and a tiny core of hobbyists who still get joy out of tinkering with them - and good on ya. But as a relevant component of modern computing... not a chance.
Seriously. Move on. Enjoy your retro-computing hobby, but it is really time to understand that the Amiga era is over.
DG
Re:HP (Score:3, Interesting)
It gets worse. Xerox wants a consulting division, so they are planning to buy Affiliated Computer Services [xerox.com]. If Dell and HP can buy consulting companies, why shouldn't Xerox?
Problem is, ACS is in the bottom 25 of worst places to work. [glassdoor.com] (Entry #21). The former head of ACS left due to a back-dating-stock-options scandal, and as a part of his golden parachute, the ACS Board gave him a $1 million per year salary allowance for security services. He needs $1 million per year in bodyguards, and the Board gave it to him. Oh yeah, they are a class act with the utmost integrity.
And Xerox wants to marry them.
In my opinion, if you have Xerox stock, sell it. Sell it now.
Re:Radio Shack: warning, whining ahead (Score:3, Interesting)
You see failure. I see a business opportunity. Get together with that manager and drive Radio Shack out of town.