Toyota Pedal Issue Highlights Move To Electronics 913
Posted
by
timothy
from the drive-by-wire dept.
from the drive-by-wire dept.
cyclocommuter writes with an excerpt from a brief WSJ story on increasing electronic control of car components: "The gas pedal system used Toyota Motor Co.'s recall crisis was born from a movement in the auto industry to rely more on electronics to carry out a vehicle's most critical functions. The intricacy of such systems, which replace hoses and hydraulic fluid with computer chips and electrical sensors, has been a focus as Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration of vehicles that led the company to halt sales of eight models this week."
Stupid summary, stupid story (Score:5, Informative)
Summary is stupid because there's no hoses and hydraulics in any car throttle system I've seen; if it's not electronic, it's a very simple and reliable steel cable.
Story is stupid because as it admits, the electronics had nothing to do with the problem; the failure was mechanical. The exact same thing could have happened to a cable-operated system.
Misleading story... (Score:5, Informative)
Drive By Wire not really the problem (Score:5, Informative)
According to AutoBlog [autoblog.com], the problem with these Toyotas is a mechanical part in the drive by wire pedal assembly (and so it's not really an issue with the car being drive by wire). The pivot point that the pedal rotates on has a bushing that is apparently wearing out and causing the pedal stick. I'm a little skeptical as it seems much more plausible that it would be an electrical (or software) gremlin, but that's apparently what they're blaming it on.
There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously. All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.
GM uses electronic gas pedals without problems (Score:2, Informative)
GM uses electronic gas pedals for quite some time at least in its Delphi platform. For instance, Opel Vectra C and derivatives, Astra G/H and derivatives, ... Never any problems with them so far for several years. Automatic transmission from Aisin-Warner, a Toyota daughter company, on the other hand is causing many problems, at least in Germany. Whatever is going on in Toyota, it is not about quality.
Defect scandal at Toyota grows -- without bound (Score:5, Informative)
Then, after further studying the problem, the management claimed that the throttle's pedal sometimes becomes stuck due to weather conditions. This new claim lead to the massive global recall of many vehicles sold over the past 3 years.
However, none of these explanations for the sudden acceleration has been satisfactory. Independent investigations leading to an explosion of lawsuits have determined that the problem is the electronic throttle control (ETC) — the so-called drive-by-wire mechanism that links the pedal via some cables to the fuel controller. According to a report [businessweek.com] by "Businessweek" and another report [wsj.com] by the "Wall Street Journal", Toyota is now the defendant in 3 separate class-action lawsuits. The plaintiffs claim that the ETC is defective.
According to a report [nytimes.com] by the "New York Times" (NYT), "a few years ago, the company sent out a technical bulletin saying some cars accelerate on their own between 38 and 42 mph, and it reprogrammed the electronics with new software codes".
The NYT notes, "John Heywood, director of the Sloan Automotive Lab at MIT, said because Toyota is the only automaker having this problem, it could be something specific to its design, such as the location and integration of the electronics relay sensor."
Further, the Toyota ETC lacks an important safety mechanism: if the customer presses both the throttle pedal and the brake pedal, then the ETC should give priority to the brake. The Toyota ETC gives priority to the throttle. How can Toyota engineers commit such a gross design mistake? Common sense tells us that the brake should receive priority.
Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem (Score:3, Informative)
There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.
Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade:
Do you see the problem with your solution?
The real world is messy.
Electronics have a proven track record (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:5, Informative)
1992 - 1995 Isuzu Trooper recall for accelerator cable stuck causing uncontrolled acceleration [consumeraffairs.com]
2003 Ford Escape stuck throttle cables result in uncontrolled acceleration [aboutautomobile.com]
2002 Ford Explorers investigated for stuck throttle cables in cold weather regions [dot.gov]
1999 - 2004 Suzuki Grand Vitara, recalled due to fraying accelerator cables that result in uncontrolled acceleration and potential crash. [lemonauto.com]
I guess we need to go back to the tried and true horse and buggy as these cable controls do not have a good history of reliability. But we may need to investigate the buggy brakes to ensure the can overpower the horses.
I'm not sure what happened in your bucking Bronco but O2 sensors do not control throttle position, worst case scenario would be an oscillating idle RPM as the computer adjusted fuel mixture from lean to rich. As long as your not touching the accelerator its not going to accelerate uncontrollably and will simply run like shit.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:2, Informative)
Or maybe we should recognize that multi-ton incendiary missiles capable of travelling at a hundred miles per hour on a level surface should be required to have at least 3 manual systems: Shifting, braking, and emergency shutoff.
All current production cars already have this. Every car produced for sale in North America or Europe (at least) is required to have a manually-operated emergency brake, and a crash safety switch that shuts the engine down in the event of a crash. And even cars with an automatic transmission have a way to manually shift the car into a low gear (1/2).
Re:Moving too fast (Score:3, Informative)
no, you're swallowing Toyota's bullshit explanation that does nothing to explain victims reports of hard out-of-control acceleration. Doesn't explain people who have actually wrestled the cars to dealships with engine redlined and brakes smoking, and turned them off and given key to dealer personnel so they could experience the demon-possessed-mechanical monster thrill themselves, some cars doing it right from being put into drive at standstill.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:5, Informative)
The 'emergency' brake isn't. It's a parking brake. All car literature today refers to it as such. Pull up on your parking brake with your foot held steady at 70 MPH, you won't be slowing down (You will burn up your brakes).
It's there for parking.
Re:missing option Manual Transmission (Score:4, Informative)
And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL!!
Options:
1) Neutral (I have yet to see a car without one)
2) Brakes (which will fade if not applied hard and soon enough)
3) Emergency/Parking brakes (not very powerful, but helps)
4) Cut ignition (on some cars- must be in neutral first)
I am sorry, but I simply *refuse* to believe that all 4 options were unavailable to the people having major run-away car problems from what was most probably a mechanical problem with the throttle pedal.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
They most certainly are. Try it in any modern car.
Re:Electronics have a proven track record (Score:3, Informative)
In this case it looks like Toyota fucked up, but that doesn't mean using electronic controls is a bad way to go, because clearly lots of things seem to be able to implement them properly, including airplanes.
If you read the recall, note that it only affects non-drive-by-wire systems. My 2009 Tundra is affected, but out 2008 Camry Hybrid is not. This is a mechanical issue.
Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures (Score:5, Informative)
This is a worthless story trying to bash electronics for a mechanical failure, and even the story admits that the electronics are not the problem in this specific case. What a load of hogwash. The article doesn't even mention or link to the real source of the problem and it fails to provide additional sources of information for people who might be affected. Someone's got to kick timothy in the ass for getting this dribble posted on the front page. At least post a story about a real electronics's failure causing serious problems such as the O2 sensor issue that the poster above mentioned, now that's a scary situation.
Our New Car
I just bought a 2010 Toyota Camry LE 2.5L I4 6-speed Automatic [edmunds.com] with EX (Upgraded Radio) and QA (Aluminum Wheels) as a first car for my wife and I as we have just moved across the country to a new city. This was the choice after a lot of researching and test driving of other vehicles and then eliminating them based on real cost of ownership, fuel efficiency, components used, safety ratings, the quality of built, the comfort of the ride, and the headaches or having to deal with the specific sales people (Honda, I'm looking at you!).
Just to make it clear that I'm not a Toyota fan boy and I am not a car person at all since don't find cars "sexy" and I was perfectly happy with my old 1994 Chrysler. This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us, it was just the best in the class for the price. There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.
This recall does not really trouble us since it is mentioned that the issue is rare, it only happens in cars sued for a while already, there is a environmental and humidity aspect to the problem with regards to condensation, and the cause is a gradual wearing down of a bushing that causes additional friction preventing the accelerator pedal from returning back to the home position that happens overtime and is noticeable with a pedal that starts becoming slow to return.
Our car was just manufactured in 2009-11 in Kentucky and I'll be checking the information below today on the weekend to see if our pedal is in the recall or not, most likely it it because it most likely has the CTS manufactured part. I'll call the dealer and arrange for a replacement in a few weeks while after they get a handle on all the people that are coming to them now. No rush on this. I've also instructed my wife on how to resolve this problem if it does occur to her when she's driving by hitting the breaks and shifting into neutral gear, then turning the ignition off when she's safely off the road.
Below is some real information about this recall.
Toyota.com - Latest News About Toyota's Safety Recall Campaign [toyota.com]
Re:Stupid summary, stupid story (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:5, Informative)
It would not stop you if you put your foot on the main brake pedal, either. The brakes in cars aren't designed to overcome the engine.
What? Please don't make sarcastic jokes that people might believe. There are people whom, crazily enough, believe that to be true.
There is not a car on the road today that doesn't have higher power brakes than engine. The ratio is beyond ridiculous for smaller cars... my little ancient saturn accelerates at barely 120 HP yet brakes at something near 600 HP.
Its the rare car indeed that takes more than a hundred or so feet to stop from HWY speeds, yet can accelerate to highway speeds in less than a hundred feet or so.
The final test, if you own an automatic transmission car, on the highway, push the accelerator and brake as hard as you can and see what happens. Guaranteed you make an extremely quick stop. Alternately, at a stop sign, all teenage boys get the idea of pushing the brakes and accelerator at the same time, to rev the engine up and squeal the tires when the brakes are released, this tends to overheat the transmission if done on a regular basis. Also it wears the tires out rather quickly.
I once drove a rental manual transmission car, and failed to completely release the parking brake. I'd never heard of one where you have to hold the release button for a second or two, I had only driven cars there you just kind of stab at the button and the parking brake instantly fully releases. Anyway, every time I'd try to get moving, the engine would stall. Even if I floor it while releasing the clutch, the wimpy parking brake left about one tenth actuated on, stalled the engine each time. Everyone accidentally does something like this at one point or another in their manual transmission driving education.
Re:As a Chrysler owner I don't understand (Score:4, Informative)
Uh, these stupid push-button starter gadgets are designed to prevent you from accidentally turning them off because that would be 'dangerous'. In this case I believe you have to hold the button in for a few seconds to turn off the engine, and if you just got in the car and don't realise then you might well assume that the starter is broken too.
Shifting to neutral can be done at anytime, is not software controlled, and by US law has to physically disconnect the motor/engine from the wheels.
Re: Electronics have a proven track record, NOT! (Score:1, Informative)
... for well over 10 years now, big rigs have had electronic throttle position sensors, ...
This is a sensor. It allows the computer to sense the position of the throttle, not control it.
So basically every truck that we've bought or ran for over ten years has had an electronic throttle pedal, ...
No, it hasn't. The throttle is controlled by the pedal connected to the throttle plates by a cable. The trucks have had throttle position sensors which assist the computer in determining the optimal amount of fuel to inject, among other things. I had a car in 1984 that had this, which constantly broke, which screwed up the engine performance. In spite of this, my car never ran away or even over-accelerated; quite the opposite happened.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept [caranddriver.com]
Re:Safety Critical (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
USA Today [usatoday.com]
It came up on Prius discussion chat boards early on
Re:Safety Critical (Score:2, Informative)
I don't know about regular brakes, but I've been driving manuals my whole life, and I've never seen a car that I can't get going with the parking brake completely on. I do notice the resistance before I burn up the brake though. What manual were you driving? It must have one hell of a parking brake. (And did you really "floor" the gas to before popping the clutch to test the effectiveness of the parking brake?) I have some serious doubts about your post.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The way this ought to work (Score:3, Informative)
There are two sensors in every Toyota accelerator position sensor.
Re:I sat in a Prius as a driver once. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l (Score:2, Informative)
Here's another link. This one contains some of the actual conversation between the police and the driver (sorry about the Flash and advertisement before the actual story):
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cruise-control-terror-for-freeway-driver-20091215-ktxn.html [smh.com.au]
Re:Safety Critical (Score:4, Informative)
(unfortunately, I overshot and put the car into park momentarily, which resulted in a slow leak of my transmission fluid that cost about $600 to fix).
This is a good reason to buy a stick instead of an automatic.
However, short of that, I don't know about your car, but in some 80s-90s autoboxes I've driven, they were designed so that you did not need to press the button to shift out of D and into neutral; you just push it. However, without the button being pushed in, that's as far as you could push it. You'd have to press the button to get it into reverse or park. I'm sure this was a safety feature, to avoid accidental shifts into reverse, while making it easy to get out of drive in case of emergencies like that. When you shifted out of D, you should have just pushed it, without the button, and you wouldn't have been able to overshoot.
Re:Misleading story... (Score:3, Informative)
This article [latimes.com] in the LA Times says a lot of knowledgeable people don't believe that. E.g., "A wide group of national automotive experts say there is strong evidence that a hidden electronic problem must account for at least some, if not most, of the Toyota sudden-acceleration events."
We have a Prius, and the electronic stuff does not inspire my confidence. It's a really crappy, poorly designed UI. My wife, my sister, and I have all drained the 12-volt battery at various times. We think it's because we didn't do the shutdown procedure in the right order, but we're not sure. There have been times when the car was non-operational, and we couldn't get it to release the key, so we had to leave the key in the ignition while the car was parked. (And there's another thing that is not a design issue, but -- the used car dealer revealed to us after we signed the contract that they only had one key to give us. A second key costs $500. If you lose your only key, it's $1000 to replace it.)
I like the car in general, but god, I wish it had an ordinary old-fasioned non-electronic key and ignition system. I'd have a lot more confidence in it.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, it can be pretty useful for slowing down without your brake lights coming on, such as when a cop is trailing you.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
Nope. In any decent car made in the last 20-30 years, the ECU has a built-in rev-limiter
The exception is mechanical diesels. They have no ECU. I have a 1982 MBZ 300SD which existed essentially unchanged until 1985, and which also existed with a different but similar engine (inferior, to be fair) until 1991 or so. I also have a 1992 F250 with a 7.3l International-Navistar V8, which is mechanically operated. If you damage your engine sufficiently, even just if you wear it out too much and it can suck oil into the cylinders, you can get a runaway condition which will over-rev and destroy the engine, but potentially not before it causes you to go much faster than you intended. Even the manual stop mechanism will not help; the one fix is to slap a 2x4 or similar over the intake. Don't use your hand, you'll be seriously sorry.
After this Toyota debacle, any thoughts I ever had of getting a new car have been completely quashed. I'll keep my manual-transmission, cable-actuated throttle, key-operated car, thank you.
I hear you there. I'm looking at converting my F250 to a five speed manual from the current four speed automatic. This is a heinously expensive proposition in the MBZ, unless I become a good enough welder to make a custom bell housing, which to be fair doesn't look all that hard.
This push-to-start (with no "off" button), drive-by-wire stuff is bullshit.
I'm of the opinion that all cars should have a big red racing-style kill switch. I intend to install one in my truck, and maybe in the MBZ too if I can find a graceful way to do it.
Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:2, Informative)
So yeah, when you drive like a moron, then you'll be in trouble. Don't ever, for any reason, pump your brakes. It's even worse now with ABS, and that does the pumping for you (and has the specific goal of *not* stopping you as fast as possible, but instead purposefully reducing your braking power in order to maintain greatly increased maneuverability).
And if your brakes start to fade and you are losing control, put your brake foot to the floor, pull (or step on) your emergency brake, and hold on. You'll skid, and you'll stop, but with no control at all. It's easier to lock the wheels than stop the car, and the heat that goes to fade will instead go to melting your tires, but you will stop. But people, even in a panic, don't press hard enough. Don't believe me? Ask Mercedes. They added "brake assist" or whatever to their cars for this exact reason.
Re:Stupid summary, stupid story (Score:3, Informative)
Not true. Mechanical throttles will (and do) stick suddenly, and do so with far more regularity that electronic throttles. A few posts up in this discussion is a myriad of recalls for just that for the last decade or two alone, and believe me there were more. Do you want to go back to the days of stuck throttles, carbs and cabling?
It is. There's multiple redundant sensors that feed the ECU and throttle, and a disagreement in any will put the car in limp-home mode (low revs, cut powerm less gears, etc). By the way, a cable-throttle car with a carb can't have a limp mode. The problem is that some parts of the system can't be made redunant, such as, eg, what happens if the pedal is stuck down.
This is why the first and most common cause was the floormats: the pedal gets physically obstructed. It's marginally more possible for this to happen in a Toyota, and it's also a bit of bad engineering, but it (and the worn spring in the CTS pedal that they're now pointing to as the other cause) have exactly nothing to do with electronics.
Re:missing option Manual Transmission (Score:3, Informative)
But part of it is also because American drivers are horrible compared to German ones. In Germany, you have to take driving lessons (about $5000), and a difficult test to get a driver's license. Not everyone has one; many people just take public transit. In the US, you just have to have a pulse, good enough eyesight to make out a few very large letters, and take a "test" that consists of taking a few turns in a parking lot, and you get a license. In some places, you don't even need the test.
People who are serious about their driving are much more likely to want a manual transmission, unless they're missing a leg.
Re:missing option Manual Transmission (Score:5, Informative)
Re:My idea (Score:3, Informative)
There is no actual reason not to use a key, there is no usability increase from using a button and most certainly usability problems from using a button.
That's not true. I have one of the push-button cars, and when combined with keyless entry, I never take the key fob out of my pocket ever.
No juggling groceries while trying to get your key out of your pocket ever again.
March 2010 issue of Car and Driver disagrees w/u (Score:5, Informative)
They did a test on 3 separate cars, Toyota Camry, Infiniti G37, and Roush Stage 3 Mustang to see the effective stopping power brakes at 70 mph and 100 mph, and each with no throttle and each with full throttle.
Only the Roush Mustang 3 had any real issue of slowing down with full throttle - but only at 100mph. It did stop eventually, but took 903 feet (vs about 320 feet with no throttle).
In the 100mph full throttle tests, the Camry stopped within 88 feet (vs no throttle), the Infinti within 6 feet (The Infiniti has a system that as soon as brakes get tapped the throttle closes, hence such close numbers)
So yes, for 99% of the cars on road, your brakes will overcome your engine easily.
Re:Electronics have a proven track record (Score:2, Informative)
If you read the recall, note that it only affects non-drive-by-wire systems. My 2009 Tundra is affected, but out 2008 Camry Hybrid is not. This is a mechanical issue.
Not true. In the US there are two recalls. The first one involved pedal entrapment (by stacked or mislocated floor mats) and involves vehicles that use a drive by wire throttle. Our '06 Tacoma is included in that. The second recall is for a wear problem that leads to sticky gas pedal on vehicles that use a CTS gas pedal. This is exclusive to drive by wire throttles. (Our Tacoma has a gas pedal manufactured by Denso that is not subject to this recall.)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:4, Informative)
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/10/toyota-recall-putting-stuck-floor-mat-survival-strategies-to-the-test.html [consumerreports.org]
Re:Safety Critical (Score:2, Informative)
How new is your Jeep? If new enough to be a Chrysler product, the brakes suck, no matter which Jeep model. Starting all the way back into the late 90s and the last model year of the Jeep Cherokee, Chrysler had dropped the Jeep brakes (bigger) and started using brakes off of other vehicles. The Cherokee finished up life with Chrysler Sebring discs on the front, and still had drums in the back in 2000. Jeep brakes suck.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:5, Informative)
Car and Driver tested just that scenario [caranddriver.com]. At 70 mph and the accelerator floored, a 268 hp Camry came to a full stop in 190 feet (vs 174 feet with no accelerator). It was actually better than a Ford Taurus with no accelerator. So making a controlled stop at full throttle while at speed is very reasonable.
I had a similar experience as you (passenger shoved a windshield heat reflector to my side without me noticing, and it restricted the accelerator's travel so it was half-depressed while I braked). I didn't notice any difference in braking at speed. It was only when I was close to stopped that I noticed it was taking longer than usual to come to a complete stop with the brake depressed the usual amount. So my experience says it just feels a lot worse than it really is. By the time you can feel it, you're traveling slow enough that it while it may take more time to stop completely, it won't take much more distance.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:4, Informative)
I almost crashed until I realized what was happening and put the car into neutral. (unfortunately, I overshot and put the car into park momentarily, which resulted in a slow leak of my transmission fluid that cost about $600 to fix).
Quick protip, since this is a pet peeve of mine: Automatic transmissions will shift from drive into neutral without the button pressed. This is to prevent exactly what happened to you. Also, you can shift from reverse into drive without pressing the button. Or even looking at the transmission readout, just slap it up or down, and you'll get where you need to go.
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
I realize that most people who post on slashdot do not actually read any articles or links which is why I included in the tag line for all those recall links the fact that these stuck throttle cables resulted in uncontrolled acceleration.
You and I would definitely have some agreement on proper design and manufacturing techniques for mechanical or electronic components, however, as far as the reliability of properly designed and manufactured mechanical components versus electronic components you are absolutely dead wrong.
If you or any of the many people who seem to agree with you bothered to research and compare electronic versus mechanical components for reliability and safety you would find they are not even close. Yes you will find all kinds of fun anecdotal evidence to throw at electronic components but for every grain of electronic related failure you find there are mountains of mechanical failures.
And by the way, if you and the others hadn't noticed yet, the repair component for the Toyota vehicles is on its way to dealerships and some of them will be open 24/7 repairing vehicles. Your not going to be happy to know the component that is causing the uncontrolled acceleration is ........ mechanical. LOL
Toyota starts shipped retrofit kits to repair accelerator pedals [execdigital.com] that stick when depressed due to friction in the mechanical housing in which the pedal pivots.
Let all the conspiracy theories begin. :)
Re:Safety Critical (Score:3, Informative)
You haven't been looking, then:
No, you simply can't read. Those articles talk about how software might cause unintended acceleration, but the recalls that are in the news are both related to mechanical problems, in one case with mats, in another case with a sticky pedal.
So I thought it must have been a sticky pedal.
It probably was a sticky pedal, so what?. A sticky pedal is not a software problem, and it occurs with mechanical linkages too (more frequently probably). Of course, software problems are possible in principle and have occurred in the past, it's just that they haven't been shown to have been involved in these cases. In particular, there is no evidence that they were involved in the crashes we discussed.
However, whether software or hardware, mechanical or fly-by-wire, all cars can accelerate suddenly. You as a driver need to be prepared and know what to do, just like you need to be able to deal with tire blowouts, flying debris, and other unexpected events.
Furthermore, you need to be aware that most cases of "unexpected" acceleration are simply due to human error: people step on the wrong pedal. It's happened to me, too. The safest car in that regard (and others) is a stick shift with no cruise control.