Woz Cites "Scary" Prius Acceleration Software Problem 749
theodp writes "Speaking at Discovery Forum 2010, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak went off topic and spoke about a 'very scary' problem with his 2010 Toyota Prius. 'I don't get upset and teed off at things in life, except computers that don't work right,' said Woz, who went on to explain he'd been trying to get through to Toyota and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration for three months, but could not get anyone to explore an alleged software-related acceleration problem. 'I have a new model that didn't get recalled,' Steve said. 'This new model has an accelerator that goes wild but only under certain conditions of cruise control. And I can repeat it over and over and over again — safely.' Toyota said it investigates all complaints. 'We're in the business of investigating complaints, assessing problems and finding remedies,' said Toyota's John Hanson. 'After man-years of exhaustive testing we have not found any evidence of an electronic [software] problem that would have led to unwanted acceleration.'"
We recently discussed other problems Toyota has had with electronic acceleration systems.
Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
Businesses lose the opportunity to obtain knowledgeable input, because their call centers are staffed by low labor-cost morons. The need to identify technically savvy callers and hand-off those calls to comparably competent staff members.
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Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
I think you mean 1 to 1000000.
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
Yes I did. I have no doubt, however, that I will be continued to be corrected throughout this thread. It is my destiny, and I can accept that.
I will correct your statement that you can accept that. I believe that you in fact can not accept being corrected constantly. Unless you are married. But this is /.
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
No you're not always wrong!
On Opinions... (Score:5, Funny)
And he expresses an opinion.
Is he still wrong?
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
Yes but as someone who reads Slashdot regularly, the problem is that the ratio of users who know how to use ratios vs those who THINK they know how to use ratios is approx. 1,000,000 to 1.
Which wouldn't actually be a problem, except that you're the 1.
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Given the mass of an average Slashdotter, I can confidently say that virtually all of them must be quite familiar with the use of rations. They certainly get enough practice.
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So having a million knowledgeable users for every one user who just thinks he knows what he's talking about is a problem? I suspect you need some remediation on how to express ratios. Or maybe that really is just your customer-service attitude coming thru again.
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Insightful)
And while Woz is known in computer geek circles, why should some random 9-to-5er paid-hourly desk jockey in a car company know who the hell he is?
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Because he was on Dancing With The Stars! Doesn't everybody watch that show?
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Insightful)
You jest, but I'd say that among the general populace, Woz is now more famous for having dated Kathy Griffin and being a contestant on "Dancing..." than for inventing the personal computer. Part of it is his easygoing demeanor, he doesn't grab attention like Jobs does, and never got quite as rich as Gates did. The other part is of course that the general populace are mouth breathing troglodytes who don't even understand how their computers work, much less that there are highly intelligent people who invented them.
Ranting aside, this should have been addressed by Toyota whether it was Woz, or Jim-Bob from West Virginia reporting it.
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Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Interesting)
The end result is you would end up with a lot of people who sound like they know what they're talking about being escalated and wasting the time of your skilled (and highly paid) engineers.
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Funny)
Here's a clue this particular caller might have known what he was talking about : his said 'Hi, my name is Steve Jobs.'
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
Whoops - just read TFA. He's the other Apple guy. But close enough.
I wonder if the help desk at Toyota is hiring, because I just passed their test.
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Funny)
Shoulda' said he was the Izard of Woz. That woulda' got their attention.
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Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
This happened internally at my company.
We had a problem and, unexpectedly, I figured out what it was instead of the appropriate department. They not only ignored the solution but tried every other possible solution before implementing the solution. And they are still (2 years later) pissy about it. The tools I used to solve the problem were disabled.
I'm sure there is an entire department of Toyota people who would be very embarrassed that a person outside their department AND outside their company AND outside their business figured out the problem when they couldn't.
But the same thing was true in both cases. Simple logic and noticing details. Woz debugged the problem. I debugged the problem. Most people just don't like to think logically and finely.
I hope Toyota gets their head out of their posterior exit and listens to him. People have died over this issue (including a cop trained in emergency driving along with his wife and 2 kids).
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Interesting)
I did the same thing at comcast before I left.
I embarassed an entire divisional Office. they were still talking about how to approach the problem and I produced a working prototype to the CTO in their meeting. He berated the other office of 8 that could not even get started on a project that I solved on my own in 1 week.
They still hate me to this day, and I've been gone for 4 years.
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If one guy can do more than the team, why would he want his reviews linked to theirs? Hell, might as well unionize and at least get the benefits of parasitism if we need to suffer the disadvantages as well...
Despite the scarily growing trend to keep our heads down and just do the minimum needed to get a check, I usually take "not a team player" as a compliment. If the project requires more total work than I can possible do alone, then great, I can cooperate with the "team" to g
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people just don't like to think logically and finely.
Most often the troubleshooter is simply too close to the problem. You are describing logical troubleshooting of how the system actually works, they are working from the perspective of how it is supposed to work. The great engineers know how to think like idiots. Great engineers also recognize competence no matter the source. :)
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
Knowing how to reliably reproduce a problem generally goes a *very* long way towards finding the cause of the problem and eventually the solution.
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Insightful)
Not to mention that virtually every "scripted" support dept. will file your ticket in the "pile of perpetual ignorance" if the problem isn't easy to reproduce. Its an easy out for a lazy service dept. "Well, we couldn't reproduce the problem, so you must be a liar. Thanks for calling!"
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No doubt if 50,000 people were calling and saying that they could reproduce the problem,
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Interesting)
Most customer service centres seem to be manned by people that would fail the Turing test.
Last time I called Dell about a laptop that was completely dead, no power lights, no fans, they asked me what the error message on screen was and it took a few minutes to explain to them something as simple as the fact that I couldn't get an error message on screen because the laptop was dead.
It was probably one of the most epic examples of human idiocy I have ever encountered. The worst part is that I understand these people are given little flow charts, or on screen wizards, so he must've managed to click past the first box that checked whether the system even turned on or not and then been incapable of handling the idea that my response didn't fit his next question.
I don't even know why places like Dell even have customer services anymore really, they outsource because it's cheap, but the centres they outsource to are cheap because they're incompetent. They might as well drop the customer service lark altogether and save themselves even more, if I phoned Dell and got told by an automated message that customer service didn't exist anymore, it wouldn't have been any less helpful than the guy above that I did actually get through to.
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It was probably one of the most epic examples of human idiocy I have ever encountered. The worst part is that I understand these people are given little flow charts, or on screen wizards, so he must've managed to click past the first box that checked whether the system even turned on or not and then been incapable of handling the idea that my response didn't fit his next question.
Years ago, a falling tree branch took out the phone line to our house. I didn't have a cell phone at the time, so I walked down the block to the convenience store, and called the phone company.
The person on the other end of the line was clearly reading from a script, and tried to ask a littany of questions about the quality of the sound over the line, ignoring my repeated attempts to say that the phone line was now lying - disconnected - in my back yard. Eventually figured out my phone line wasn't hooked up
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Interesting)
Next time you call support take a video, it might be the next "verizon math fail" with 30,000+ hits. [youtube.com] All that bad press over $71. [blogspot.com]
I had a problem with a Whirlpool wash machine. It was a few years old and the warranty expired, but I took a video of the problem and posted it on Youtube. Within a week and less than 50 views I had an email from someone claiming to be whirlpool [youtube.com] offering to help resolve the situation with a 800 number and extension attached.
I use to work tech support for a huge hosting provider (they're in the top 5). We'd get threats of lawsuits every day, but one time someone blogged about us and management had an all hands meeting, telling us to ignore lawsuits because those are easy to fight but if a customer threatens to blog about us to escalate to a manager immediately (usually we could only offer manager call backs... yes i know stupid).
People forget how powerful the internet is yet we see the effects of millions of
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:4, Insightful)
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Then you get the flipside: the online troubleshooting site is the only thing you can find under "contact." No way to get past the lack of an answer in the database to find a phone number, email address, or submission form.
Most online content providers do this. Google, Yahoo, ESPN, are a few I can think of off the top of my head. The closest you'll ever get is to luck into a "feedback" widget meant to collect impressions about their web design on a particular page. But those are likely linked to a databas
Re:Typical Customer Service Department attitude (Score:5, Insightful)
People complain why Apples are more expensive, and this is just one reason. If I have a problem with an Apple product, I can take it to an Apple store. Sure I have to make a reservation and wait, but I get a live person. I could have called the support center and got a script, but the extra I paid for my Apple product entitles me to in-store support.
For example, my iPhone just died one day. It never turned on. At first I thought it was not charged, but after 20 mins of charging, it still didn't respond. So I thought it could be the battery. The tech asks me what's wrong with the phone. I respond: "It's dead, Jim." He laughs and hooks it up to his diagnostic machine. It takes him a while to get it to power up but not after he removed parts.
Amazingly the iPhone records a lot about its activities. I could see on his diagnostic screen all the times I synced in the last two weeks, how often I charged it and for how long, etc. His diagnosis is the phone wasn't coming out of sleep mode but it had plenty of power. There was a bug that they believed they fixed in the last major patch that should have fixed it, but maybe they didn't fix all the causes. Since I had 3 months left on my warranty, he gave me a new phone. I'm sure it was refurbished and not entirely new but it was pretty good service.
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That's a bit of a straw man. It's generally Macs that are considered to be overpriced; The iPhone is about evenly priced with competitive models.
As far as hardware issues, any idiot can replace a product, which is the "solution" for 99% of technical problems. Note that it's not actually a solution; it's just more economical than diagnosing the real problem.
For software, Apple, being the author of their own OS, are a bit more knowledgeable about OS-X than a Dell representative might be about Windows. But
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My point is you generally get what you pay for. That's the same with most goods. If you want to buy cheap, you'll usually get a cheaper product and poorer service. You will pay less for a Ford than an Acura, but you'll get better service with an Acura.
As for Macs being overpriced that's been debunked so many times. Macs are generally priced higher than other brands because they start at the middle of the market and go to the high end. They do not make low-cost models. Many times I've seen someone try
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Last time I called Dell about a laptop that was completely dead, no power lights, no fans, they asked me what the error message on screen was and it took a few minutes to explain to them something as simple as the fact that I couldn't get an error message on screen because the laptop was dead.
It was probably one of the most epic examples of human idiocy I have ever encountered. The worst part is that I understand these people are given little flow charts, or on screen wizards, so he must've managed to click past the first box that checked whether the system even turned on or not and then been incapable of handling the idea that my response didn't fit his next question.
I understand your pain, but it would be worthwhile to point out that the reason they ask questions the way they do is because the vast majority of their customers cannot distinguish between things like "Dead" and "Broken" and "Not working", etc.
The general populace is incompetent, inarticulate and cannot properly explain their own problems. Hence, customer service reps follow these flow charts and whatnot in order to diagnose the problem and they do not trust the customer to properly communicate that.
These
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This is true - but even the way its set up currently, those more competent staff members end up gaining this elitist attitude.
My room mate works in a Call center for Tech support for a national (possibly international?) ISP/TV/Phone provider*. He has only been there say 4 months and he's already among the best reps and people go to him for help. With some certification, he could land a teir 2 position. There was a case about a month ago where a customer called in, and said "Your server is down". My buddy we
Like Microsoft (Score:2)
Re:Like Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
Re:Like Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
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The thing is, since it's most likely a software problem.. they need to change their model to accommodate for hot-fixes. You shouldn't need to recall the car just to upgrade the firmware.
Maybe this sort of publicity will push towards a more modern servicing model.
Disconnect..... (Score:4, Insightful)
They exist between developers/engineers and end users.
You have call center workers that log this stuff in and then someone else that reads thru it and decides what gets passed on.
The only time it actually makes it up the chain is when it hits CNN because someone died, or in the case of someone famous that says something to the media.
Only now will they hear of it and investigate it.
The guy says he can reproduce it, and it's Woz.... if he say it's there I believe him.
It's too bad that most bugs go unfixed because of the barriers put in place.
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I don't blame the developer. I have been th
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You are so right.
I've worked in organizations that developed software, from small shops where the programmers talked to the customers directly, and huge organizations with several layers in between.
In the small shops, the programmers know what is wrong with the software they make. They know, because the users tell them. They phone in and say "X doesn't work", and the programmer just keeps asking questions until they can reproduce the problem. If they don't sort it out over the phone, one visits the other an
I don't believe it (Score:5, Funny)
Um, fact check. 134hp, that's engine + synergy drive. 0-60 is about eight weeks (well, 9.8 seconds but what's the difference?)). Under no circumstance whatsoever short of driving off a cliff will a stock Prius accelerate wildly. Sorry Woz! ;)
(Uh, I'm kidding. Obviously.)
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Accelerator goes wild does not equal wildy accelerating.
Safely. noted this one on /. before: (Score:5, Informative)
woz said he could reproduce safely .. I bet it is the same isssue as : This poster op [slashdot.org]
"I can nudge my cruise control speed lever and my speed barely goes up, say from 80 to 81.I nudge at again and again, up to 83. Then I nudge it again and the car takes off, no speed limit. Nudging the cruise speed control lever down has no effect until I've done it about 10 times or more. By then my Prius is doing 97. It's scary because it's so wrong and so out of your normal control. I tested this over and over the night I observed it."
Re:Safely. noted this one on /. before: (Score:5, Informative)
Look at the poster's name, that IS woz.
Re:Safely. noted this one on /. before: (Score:5, Funny)
Eureka moment in Toyota R&D HQ: (Score:5, Funny)
Jalopnik has been covering this... (Score:5, Informative)
However, they have been frontrunning this story and trying to lead the charge to push it up to the MSM.
Woz is Woz, he needs no introduction on
Note, in NTSB reports - many of these cars have had the brake pads TOTALLY burned through, indicating that once these cars took off on people, they COULD NOT stop. In the fatality cases, if the driver had forced the car into neutral (the linkage would have resisted, you would have needed to really muscle it) they could have saved themselves. Instead they rode the brake into an obstacle.
This is PR nightmare time for Toyota. It will make the Ford-Firestone debacle look like simple times.
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Yes, their coverage so far has suggested there's more to this problem than just the stated accelerator problems. Remember that this is a Japanese company, so there may be an attempt to push the problem off onto outside suppliers to avoid loss of face. There are several reports of problems that had nothing to do with a mechanically sticking pedal, and beside that the ECU software should disable the throttle-by-wire after the brake has been held down for several seconds. Other car manufacturers do that; if yo
Re:Jalopnik has been covering this... (Score:5, Funny)
The Japanese do it to save face, the Americans do it to cover their ass. Same behavior, but different parts of the anatomy.
Re:Jalopnik has been covering this... (Score:5, Funny)
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If you think they have a tendency to side with the GOP you clearly haven't been ont he site long enough. And I can't recall them over getting into political discourse beyond criticizing Cash-for-Clunkers. In general, however, Gawker Media, which is the company Jalopnik is owned by has a libertarian bent trending towards libera
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I would have a tough time believing that they even overheated the pads, that would take a LOT of "unstoppable" acceleration.
I would guess that the Prius has inadequate brakes, counting on the regenerative system to take up the slack, which it would do if the car were operating correctly. In addition, as RPM approaches zero, the torque of an electric motor approaches the maximum, so the slower you got the car, the harder it would be to stop if the electric motor were convinced it needed to put out maximum power — which it would do if it were trying to accelerate. Of course, any responsible vehicle would permit the brake to
Post video (Score:3, Insightful)
wild but only under certain conditions (Score:2, Funny)
Sounds like Woz's stint on "Dancing with the Stars."
Toyota Accelerator "Not an Electronics Problem" (Score:2)
Honestly, officer, it wasn't me! (Score:3, Interesting)
I got a speeding ticket last year while driving my mother-in-law's new Toyota Sienna for the first time. I was following a vehicle through a work-zone with the cruise control set at 50-mph (so I thought). The vehicle in front of me changed lanes and the van accelerated rapidly to 65-mph...right past a cop. I tried to explain to him that the van did it, but he didn't care.
I know now that the digital cruise control, in combination with the collision-avoidance "radar" in the Toyotas will regulate the vehicle speed, but what happens when the vehicle in front of you moves or accelerates is sometimes erratic behavior. Could this be related to what's happening? Is it user error?
Re:Honestly, officer, it wasn't me! (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost as frustrating as the article (Score:4, Interesting)
I can imagine that woz explained specifically what the problem is (and how to reproduce it), but the article doesn't mention any specifics. Now I have nothing empirical to form an opinion off of.
Thanks a lot modern news media!
Do not Fuck with the WOZ! (Score:5, Funny)
Do NOT Fuck with the WOZ!
Just DON'T
It is not prudent.
Dealership? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why doesn't he just take the car to the dealership? He could be making a bigger deal out of this than is necessary.
It seems to be a bad habit people in high places have of trying to only deal with others in high places. His cruise control may have a problem. That doesn't mean he needs to call the CEO of Toyota directly to get the problem resolved. His dealer should be able to take care of it.
Pro American propaganda (Score:3, Funny)
Problem and explanation discussed here before (Score:4, Informative)
My 1994 Chrysler New Yorker Had Similar Problem (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Floor mat, really? (Score:5, Interesting) [slashdot.org]
by SteveWoz (152247) writes: Alter Relationship on 2009-11-04 0:12 (#29973870)
My old 1994 Chrysler New Yorker had a similar problem with cruise control but it wasn't as acute as was Steve describes. If I was going up any small hill on a highway and I hit the cruise control speed up button once, twice, three times the car would try to accelerate a little and then rev up like mad and try to speed up by almost +10 miles per hour until it was going much faster than I intended, making me hold the coast button for a while unit it slows down or by turning off cruise control all together with the Off button or by a light tap on the breaks.
Oh and I'm not trying to play down the problem with Toyota's accelerator pedal recall or now this cruise control issue, there is a real issue there that needs to be addressed and it appears like there is some cover-up and a lack of accountability and openness about these problems from Toyota's reactions.
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What you were experiencing was the engine down shifting to try and accelerate to the speed you had told it to go to. When in the higher gear it couldn't accelerate fast enough so you kept hitting the button, so it was set to a much higher speed than you actually wanted. Then it changed gears and had the additional power and accelerated quickly towards its target speed.
Your problem was a user issue. The same problem still exists in cars today.
I have been wondering this from the beginning.... (Score:3, Insightful)
For those that don't know, the Therac-25 is one of the all-time worst human-machine interfaces ever built. I can't help but wonder, based on Woz's comments, if we have a similar situation with Toyota.
Issues like these can be difficult to track down so it would not surprise me at all if that is what we are dealing with here. Multi-years of pseudo-random symptoms and no obvious "solutions" have worked thus far. Not to trivialize it but -- it's a gas pedal. In other words, it should be a simple mechanism for putting fuel into the engine. Of course, we all know modern cars are not so simple. That is precisely why I ask if we have a human-machine interface issue here. ie: you are pushing a lever for the gas but that lever is a "software" lever so who knows what is actually going on in the car's computer.
Unwanted acceleration? (Score:4, Funny)
Not exactly a voluntary recall (Score:5, Insightful)
The New York Times reported that Toyota stopped selling their defective cars only after the NTSB "asked" them to do it.
That's not exactly "voluntary". The way DOT and CPSC recalls work is that first they ask the manufacturer to do a "voluntary" recall. If the manufacturer says no, they issue a mandatory recall notice.
About once a decade, some manufacturer is dumb enough to let things go that far. It means national TV coverage ("The National Transportation Safety Board today ordered the recall of all NNN model XXX cars.") It means that, instead of a obliquely worded letter from the manufacturer, every owner gets an official letter from the Government with words like "dangerous and defective product" in big black type. The manufacturer involved usually experiences a large, permanent drop in sales.
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When I see a toyota, it makes me JIzz in my pants.
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"lower gear"? Clearly you've never driven a Prius. A Prius don't have gears.
Re:Woz, you're an idiot (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
"A continuously variable transmission (CVT) is a transmission which can change steplessly through an infinite number of effective gear ratios between maximum and minimum values. This contrasts with other mechanical transmissions that only allow a few different distinct gear ratios to be selected. The flexibility of a CVT allows the driving shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity over a range of output velocities."
It then goes on to note that a Prius actually has something a bit different, since it derives power from both the motor and the engine, and not from a single source.
Also, about Woz's thing... I wonder if it doesn't have more to do with impatience than run-away acceleration. The Prius's cruise control accelerates gradually when you increase the threshhold, it doesn't lurch forward and immediately try to attain the new speed. But I believe if you keep pressing it, the threshhold eventually gets high enough above the current speed that it uses a lower gear ratio and will accelerate more quickly to what the CC is now set at.
I know my VW Golf will eventually downshift and leap forward if you increase the cruise control faster than the car can accelerate in whatever it's current gear is. Since you may, by then, have set the CC to like 20mph above where you're currently at, it may indeed seem like a runaway car.
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Its, not it's. Curses!
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Doesn't sound like he's an idiot to me. [slashdot.org]
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You have absolutely no idea how a Prius drivetrain works, do you?
Here are a few hints: First, the Prius doesn't have anything resembling a normal automatic transmission. Second, it has to be computerized because there's no easy mechanical way t
But its the guy who can reproduce results! (Score:3, Insightful)
If Woz can reproduce the problem, then I'll believe him.
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The car manufacturers checked and checked again. Found nothing.
But the Apple dude says there's something wrong!
I think I'll believe the computer guy, not the guys who actually designed, tested, certified and built the car.
If Woz can reproduce the problem, then I'll believe him.
Reproducing the problem is not the same as making the right diagnosis.
I am sure he can reproduce the problem.
I am not sure that his diagnosis of a computer system which he has not taken apart, and with which he hasn't tinkered, is right.
However, if he HAS tinkered with the Toyota's computer system - that would be a great diagnosis in itself, and perhaps a reason for the malfunction (apologies to Apple fans for blasphemy) and perhaps Toyota would blame him.
Frankly, it can be Woz, hell, it could be the entire
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I think i'll believe THE computer guy.
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Well, if testing was perfect there would be no bugs out in the field. Hmmmm...
I learned a long time ago that when I say my product "shouldn't" do something that's not the same as it "doesn't" do something. When I have a user come to me and tell me that's it doing something I don't think it "should" be doing, I start by believing that they are seeing the issue they tell me they're seeing. Often it turns out that they are not seeing what they think they're seeing, but some times it turns out that what I th
Re:But it's the Apple dude who says so! (Score:5, Insightful)
To play devil's advocate...
Woz's problem might be specific to his own car.
I had an issue with my Cadillac's throttle assembly 3 months after buying the car (new). It was a bad sensor.
At the time I didn't know what it was (throttle, fuel line, transmission, etc). I searched through the big forum where EVERYONE reports their CTS problems and I only found 1 guy with a similar (yet different) issue. There was no tech bulletin about it, no forum posts, etc. There were other common issues out there which I managed to avoid, but this one was my particular piece that was the issue.
In short: until the car's engine temp reached equilibrium, pressing the accelerator more than 1/2 way caused the engine to buck wildly. It was like I was alternating between flooring the gas pedal and taking my foot off every second. This made merging and and stop signs quite unsafe, and I was able to replicate it 100% of the time so long as the car was cooled down first.
I had to take it to the shop 3 flippin' times before they addressed it. The first few times they said "no problem, drive it until it's worse." I had to sit in the car with a tester and finally told him "xxxx it, just floor it." He flipped out and what the car did and called a tech from corporate to look at it.
So, it's possible he has an issue that's related to the Recall but not part of the same batch of issues. It's a long shot, but still possible.
Re:But it's the Apple dude who says so! (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who has written a program I was sure was bug-free after repeated testing, only to have somebody who doesn't know jack about programming find a bug, I have to disagree; Woz is probably right.
Especially remembering about the Pinto gas tank; ten bucks to fix a deadly problem they kept secret. How do you know the manufacturer found nothing? I trust a corporation about as far as I can throw their headquarters building. I would not be surprised if it came out that there is a problem, the manufacturer knows about it, but it will cost ten bucks per car for a recall. They'll weigh cost of the possible lawsuits against the surety of the cost of the recall, and if the suits are cheaper, they're not going to care about people dying.
Corporations do NOT care about your safety unless it is monetarily profitable to them or a government forces them to.
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I was talking more about Toyota
I was using the Ford Pinto as an example of why you should not trust the Toyota Corporation to come clean about defects, and you started talking about cost analysis and why it was ok. The Pinto incident is NOT ok. Toyota didn't murder anyone (yet), but the Ford corporation certainly did. As I said, had a person done this they would be in prison for involuntary manslaughter.
I trust most car companies will make a best effort to keep their cars safe and disclose serious safety is
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This always made me wonder (Score:4, Interesting)
TERRIBLE ADVICE (Score:5, Insightful)
You do NOT turn off the car - this could lock your wheel, preventing you from steering altogether. Whats more, you'll lose power brakes - you know - the things that will stop your car quickly. Instead:
Put the car in NEUTRAL. The engine will disengage.
Hit the brake HARD. Do not pump.
Steer the car off the road, and once its stopped, you can PARK it and turn off the engine.
Correct Advice (Score:3, Insightful)
You do NOT turn off the car - this could lock your wheel, preventing you from steering altogether. Whats more, you'll lose power brakes - you know - the things that will stop your car quickly. Instead:
Put the car in NEUTRAL. The engine will disengage. Hit the brake HARD. Do not pump. Steer the car off the road, and once its stopped, you can PARK it and turn off the engine.
This is absolutely the correct reaction. A slightly more aggressive tact might be to drop the vehicle in low, which might blow the engine but would also severely limit your speed.
Engine Limiters (Score:5, Informative)
Most modern cars have engine RPM limiters; throw it into neutral with a stuck throttle and it may sound like it's going to blow up but it'll be fine. In automatic transmissions, selecting low is really only a suggestion and most automatics will freely ignore a manually selected downshift if it leads to an over-rev condition.
The only way to over-rev most cars these days is have a standard transmission and miss a shift coming down.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have heard the Toyota software will not allow you to shift into neutral if the throttle is too high. I have not been willing to test it on my Toyota, as I like my functional engine. Can anyone verify or debunk this information?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This whole "sudden acceleration" issue is a non-issue (or at least it should be a bug, but not a horrible death trap) if people just had functioning brains; as the parent said: "PUT THE DAMN CAR IN N and PRESS THE BREAKS (sic)" and all should come to a stop. I guess that too many cheeseburgers with super-sized fries have finally shown their effects in people's brains...
Isn't it bad enough that other cars on the roads can do unpredictable things on the road? Now you gotta be prepared for your car to go nuts too? Most of the time what you describe is what happens -- driver gets the car back in control. You don't hear much in the news about accidents that don't happen, though. Accidents do happen when a sufficient number of problems arise at once and exceed the driver's ability to cope with all of them in time. Some of those things are the your fault, some are the other
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The vehicle was push button and pushing the button while driving doesn't do anything. Computer users may be inclined to hold the power button down for a few seconds but a computer illiterate person may not think of that. In the case of the push button start Lexus you have to hold the button down for like 3-5 seconds to force a shutdown while driving.
Also, the automatic is a weird looking gated one similiar to this http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200605/2006-lexus-is350-27_460x0w.jpg
There are two nutra
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Carwinism!
Car and Driver magazine test of Audi flawed (Score:3, Informative)
Some years ago, when the Audi 5000 (IIRC) was under fire for a similar problem, one of the car magazines (Car & Driver, IIRC) did a test where they compared the stopping distance from 60 mph at closed throttle (the normal case) to that at full throttle. They reported the stopping distances were identical -- the brakes were so much stronger than the engine that the engine's torque had no effect at all.
I used to own an Audi 5000 Turbo. Indeed, the brakes were much stronger than the engine. But if the check valve between the intake manifold and the brake booster failed, then you would have high pressure air where you needed sub-atmospheric air, resulting in an inability to operate the brakes.
This happened to me. If the engine had positive boost, you couldn't budge the brake petal.
So while the Car & Driver magazine was correct for a car in perfect shape, their test did not show what would happen with
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Easy fix: Don't make right turns