Using Classical Music As a Form of Social Control 721
cyberfringe writes "Classical music is being used increasingly in Great Britain as a tool for social control and a deterrent to bad behavior. One school district subjects badly behaving children to hours of Mozart in special detention. Unsurprisingly, some of these youth now find classical music unbearable. Recorded classical music is blared through speakers at bus stops, outside stores, train stations and elsewhere to drive away loitering youth. Apparently it works. Detentions are down, graffiti is reduced, and naughty youth flee because they find classical music repugnant."
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
Horrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
It'll stop in a few years (Score:5, Insightful)
"Youths" don't stay young forever. Before very long they'll be adults, with legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops, but they still won't like the music. Any place that continues to play it will be driving away a whole lot of customers.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Insightful)
Chavs yes, the rest of the youth not so much.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
I suggest Rage Against The Machine.
Re:Horrible! (Score:1, Insightful)
I think kids don't enjoy classical music because most of their music experience are from listening to CD records. And recorded music is just a BAD thing to listen to. To make things worse, today's sound engineers produce highly post-processed recordings that hides the "imperfections" but also removes the little things that makes the music alive.
Your home theatre/ipod/whatever never beat a live performance in a real music hall.
And now this. Classical music eardrum piercer. Guess this is yet another form of government bailing-out for the recording industry[sic].
/me posting this listening to Beethoven's Grosse Fuge op.133 ;p.
Video Games Live? (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder what they'll think of Video Games Live [videogameslive.com]. Will "repugnant" classical music + awesome video game tunes make their heads explode?
Re:Of course (Score:4, Insightful)
"Playing music in the public for free only gets things worse."
Why do you think they tried classical music in the first place?
Playing contemporary music costs more than removing the graffiti.
It's a sin! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:3, Insightful)
Most adults I know can't stand classical music either.
I would hazard a guess and say that the people who dreamt up this scheme don't either. I do wonder why this is news though, this idea was tried out at least a decade ago.
Re:It'll stop in a few years (Score:3, Insightful)
Teenagers don't have legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops?
I can't figure out why kids would prefer to hang out at some bus stop or a train station when they could be hanging out somewhere cooler.
Re:Great... (Score:4, Insightful)
The operators of a shopping centre near my home have started doing this in an area where teenagers tend to hang around outside. The thing is the spot the kids are using is ideal for the purpose. Its out of the way and a bit dirty. Nobody else goes there and its not really a place people walk through. So I don't really see a point beyond a vague "we don't like them" sentiment.
Maybe they'll grow up as well as old (Score:5, Insightful)
Classical music is quite enjoyable. You can point to plenty of musical/acoustic reasons why this is the case, as in the songs feature things that people find pleasing to hear. It is not the sort of thing that you require intense training to appreciate because it is all intellectual or something, and the actual sound is awful, it is simply nice to listen to.
The primary reason that youth seems not to like it is a cool factor thing, not because the music itself is in some way offensive. When you grow up, you hopefully realize that is pretty stupid, and can enjoy it.
What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
When did our kids becomes our enemies? It seems the UK do about everything in their power to alienate their youth. I really don't know about the UK, but is there really such a big problem with "unruly youths" that you have to bombard them with "deterrents" that seem to come from the privy closet of Marquis de Sade?
What sadist comes up with those things? And why do I have the gut feeling that the only reason this is targeted at kids is just that they can't vote and thus can't kick the bastard off his comfy chair?
Re:It'll stop in a few years (Score:3, Insightful)
"Youths" don't stay young forever. Before very long they'll be adults, with legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops, but they still won't like the music. Any place that continues to play it will be driving away a whole lot of customers.
You are basically saying today's youths are so much different than youths a century ago. Possibly, taking into consideration that intelligence increases over generations, their intellect is more advanced and their reasoning for disliking classical music is taken with a great deal of consideration.
I'll give you that I represent your words very freely indeed. But consider that Bach and Mozart are among the most skilled musicians that ever lived and that their works have stood against the tooth of time. I would not be surprised when a percentage of the "recalcitrant youths" will start liking and maybe appreciating classical pieces.
My take is that the dislike of classical music is fed by group pressure, possibly to stand up against one's parents. And, as less and less parents show an exclusive liking of classical music, it will become less and less "uncool" to listen to it.
I recall Jaco Patorius, possibly the most virtuoso and influential bass guitar player that ever lived, saying he liked any kind of music as long as it's played well. He even liked country and western.
Now, let me find my ropes, straitjacket, eye clamps, artificial tears and the almost forgotten long play records of Ludwig Von. Then I'll invite a "youth" over and "we" will have a swell time appreciating classical music.
Re:Horrible! (Score:3, Insightful)
1) the quality difference between an average bitrate mp3, CD quality, and live performance is perceptible for at least some portion of the population, likely a significant one.
2) the average person who listens to music would consider this quality sacrifice negligible. i.e., given the practical impossibility of listening to live performance while driving, studying, working, running, playing, dining, dancing, et cetera, normal encoding of music is "good enough".
3) all human perception is relative in nature. this statement may not be precise (you can't get used to 500F weather), but it is often correct. in this case, i believe that after a period of adjustment, even the most highly trained musical ear can be re-trained to be able to enjoy and appreciate lower-quality musical recordings just as much as it would enjoy perfect reproduction of the music.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Strange. We're thinking of the children when we strip away the freedoms of the adults, and appearantly we're thinking of the adults when we're stripping away the freedoms of our kids. In other words, when we're taking away from everyone, we make everyone happy... or something like that must be the logic.
Re:It's a sin! (Score:3, Insightful)
answer 2: 'cause we don't want to waste perfectly good bombs. they're gonna destroy themselves pretty soon as it is.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
The current UK trend is to deny youth any use of public space (we've just locked a churchyard because of the occasional bit of trouble), remove benches and exert social control on all gathering youth. Where are these guys and gals supposed to go? Oh, I know, to McDonalds or some place where they spend money, that's OK.
We badly need to get back to a mixture of tolerance, being less fearful and, on the other side making kids aware of how to use and co-exist in public space (we managed, with on/off brushes with the police) with the 'olds'. All this repression is idiotic, ineffective and counterproductive (because it alienates rather than teaches).
No, the problem is the limitation of speakers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Unruly youths" is journalism code in Europe for "gangs of young Muslim men."
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Re:Horrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
You either like music or you don't, I REALLY REALLY doubt playing classical music is going to change the opinions of ANYONE. Did elevator music turn anyone off of being a musician? Come on man.
Re:Horrible! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
When did our kids becomes our enemies?
Not kids in general, a specific underclass of kids that cause >40% of crime (aka 'anti-social behaviour' in modern terms).
When they set fire to a car.
When they sit fire to bins and push them, burning, up against the communal entrance to your apartment.
When they break into your apartment complex's underground parking to have somewhere to drink, and smash everything on their way out.
The 11 year old putting a brick through the windscreen of an Audi TT so he can spit on the seats, caught because his DNA was already on police records from previous arrests.
Well, that's just this week. They were enemies before that.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:2, Insightful)
Do they water board at the bus stop in the USA?
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:2, Insightful)
Mate - get some proportion. Since when was this a full-on assault against anyone and everyone under 18? Come to the UK and check it out before hyperventilating. Is there a problem with unruly youths? Yes - but only in certain places and at certain times. If those places are also those where pensioners and mothers of young children fear to tread due to a knot of hoodies with tins of Special Brew welded to their hands, then bring it on. I despair of the mentality that sees fit to pass summary judgement based on a fistful of second-hand information - you honestly don't have a f*cking clue.
As to the Marquis de Sade reference - the only kind of torture this scheme gets even close to is the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition sketch:
"Bring on the ... SOFT CUSHIONS!"
Heerlen (Score:1, Insightful)
The city of Heerlen in the Netherlands has been doing this with great success for about 3 years now.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:1, Insightful)
Yep, the British took the gloves off when it came to The Troubles. That doesn't excuse Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, or extreme rendition. Although not too many countries have their hands completely clean on this score if you go back far enough in the last century. Algeria and Viet Nam for France. Any state that went through a totalitarian fascist or communist phase. And that's for the relatively modern and supposedly enlightened states.
As a Canadian, I'm not too happy about our recent prisoner fubar in Afghanistan. especially since it seems that it wasn't just a screwup like in Somalia (where the wrong type of troops were assigned to the wrong type of duty), but that instead the politicians and upper echelons appear to have known about it for a long time and both deliberately allowed it and covered it up at the same time. Those jerks have trashed a reputation that many Canadian soldiers and diplomats gave their up lives in building. But the Brits really need someone to set up a third party that can get their political and law-enforcement houses in order.
They should be so lucky (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:classical music is defective (Score:1, Insightful)
It's a shame Mozart did not account for all the morons of the 20th and 21th century that damaged their own ears by cranking up the volume with headphones.
Re:Horrible! (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree, but with so many other options exhausted, it may well be the least barbaric way of punishing these little shits.
It doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
They would, but they can't afford to pay the perpetual copyright.
Re:It's a sin! (Score:3, Insightful)
A better question might be to answer why so many slashdot readers lap this stuff up as if it were some kind of bizarre universal truth about the UK. It might well happen in isolated places, but not everywhere. Get a grip, lads. Is it any worse than the CIA blasting Barry Manilow at Noriega?
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
ALEX's voice over at the end of the movie - "And what do you know, my brothers and only friends, it was the 9th, the glorious 9th of Ludwig van. Oh, it was gorgeosity and yummy yum yum. I was cured. As the music came to its climax, I could viddy myself very clear, running and running on like very light and mysterious feet, carving the whole face of the creeching world with my cut throat britva. I was cured all right."
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know what happened in UK society (it was obviuosly before I lived here)...hell, I don't understand what went wrong in American society to bring our fascist right-wing wackos out like postnuclear cockroaches, so I certainly cannot begin to divine what happened on this side of the pond.
Well you've already revealed why you can't begin to divine what's happened over there.
You've already said that America, with the 'fascist right-wing wackos' out and about- is downright polite compared to the UK.
Would it be accurate to say then, that you find the UK's government more to your liking than America's?
General social mores in the United States may give you 'fascist right-wing wackos', but they also give you kids who aren't feral.
The society that has spawned the UK government has also spawned the same degenerate youth, with certain government policies- all very well meaning moves by enlightened lefties, you see- has helped the UK turn into what it is today. Or at least jolly Ol' England.
No 'divining' is necessary to see the cause for the fall in the UK. The answer is apparent to all but folks who can only dismiss alternative viewpoints as those of 'fascist right-wing wackos.'
Re:Mozart (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This tactic is being used against adults also. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Horrible! (Score:2, Insightful)
"How many of these kids who may have grown up to enjoy classical music are turned off by it forever?"
Who cares about what chavs enjoy? Repel them and be done with it. Such folks don't change, at least for the better.
Those who are worthy to appreciate good music will self-select without assistance.
I like classical, and would take advantage of going where it repels those who do not.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your bad bit of Liverpool isn't the whole country. Even Liverpool (an area which the whole UK makes jokes about as regards to criminality) isn't representitive of the whole UK.
In general it is a *tiny minority* of youth who are like this. The majority only cause typical teenage trouble to their parents and nothing else.
It's not as if it is a specific to the UK problem. There are youth like this all over the world. Only recently I was watching an article on Spanish TV about juvenile delinquency, alcohol abuse, and anti social behaviour in Madrid. Recently there was a news item in the Spanish press about someone who had just been released from prison (who had been implicated in burning a girl to death) being put back in prison again for stealing from cars. There are probably British counterparts to your Spanish friend.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm disappointed that you've assumed all kids are like the ones in the posh areas where you're fortunate enough to hang out.
Where did I do that?
I'd say the average is closer to his end of the scale than yours.
It may well be, but this isn't the Daily Mail comments section: shades of grey are permitted.
Understand, it's Britain (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, the brochures are hard to come by.
But it's actually easy to travel.
Just make some federal agent believe that you are terrorist scum, and Uncle Sam will arrange the trip for you.
Re:Horrible! (Score:5, Insightful)
"How many of these kids who may have grown up to enjoy classical music are turned off by it forever?"
Zero.
Actually not a single one of the chavs generally entertained by loitering, vandalism, and graffiti would ever have become your postulated classical aficionado, so we're good there.
Moral doesn't mean what you think it means (Score:5, Insightful)
General social mores in the United States may give you 'fascist right-wing wackos', but they also give you kids who aren't feral.
Hardly. Vast swathes of the south side of Chicago, Eastern LA, Salt Lake City, Baltimore, Washington D.C., Miami, New York, Philadelphia, etc. etc. have "ferel youth" running rampent. The middle class doesn't acknowledge this as they are safely tucked away in their gated communities, but anyone who has lived downtown knows this, even without seeing newscasts of this or that drive-by shooting.
And that doesn't even begin to touch the spate of school and university killings in the middle and upper class campuses that have blighted the US, usually in the heart of these so-called "moral" communities you talk about (and the so-called "gun rights" they support).
I do prefer the government in the UK over that of the US (the country is, by and large, more governable, and better governed, than the US) ... but the country here is by no means perfect, and out-of-control youth are a big problem. Too many of them watching the wire and trying to mimic American kids they think are cool, perhaps. What is telling is that they have found an effective, non-violent solution to the problem (playing classical music), and folks are comparing it to the Marquis de Sade for crying out loud -- probably some of the same folks who would favour calling in the police to crack heads if it were happening on their side of the pond, or in their neighbourhood. And then go to church on Sunday and expound on America's "moral superiority" while decrying any kind of sane healthcare system and lamenting the current administration's reversal on the use of torture against "foreign combatants."
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
My experience has not been that the music has been incredibly loud, it's been quite pleasant in fact.
I found it quite funny when I first heard they were doing this at my local bus stop, I didn't think it would be a deterrent as it wouldn't have dettered me (I was a teen when they started doing this). Was surprised it worked though.
Britains main problem isthe criminalising of its youth. They steadily reduced the amount of money going to youth programs and centres, thereby reducing the amount of places and free activities that children could go to and do. So as a result more and more of them started hanging around streets and at malls as they had no where else to go. This scared people seeing large "gangs of youth and about, assuming they must be upto no good.
They are asked to move on by police or people because they are scaring people just by being there, made to feel like criminals and then we expect them to act better.
Britain has seen a drop in most criminal activity despite Labours addition of several thousand new criminal laws since they came to power in 1997. Yet most people think the country has got worse, and seem to blame the youth more and more.
Re:Great... (Score:2, Insightful)
May be it was more or less innocent in the 60s (except that Manson bloke) and that may be was one of the reasons it was allowed and now it is not allowed because it grew to much sinister things.
The curbing of any freedoms start with the most obvious cases supported by everybody (forbidding "fire!" in the theatre free speech, e.g.), then goes to less popular cases ("pedophilia"), then it could be a ban on making photos of police (UK), then it could become a ban on foul language against government officials and it could end up with a system of bans on almost any speech (like in Northern Korea).
But same is true for the movement in opposite direction as well: first freedoms that are allowed are the most obvious ones, then less obvious and then you can end up with ridiculous "freedoms" that end up harming the society.
Sustained society (with healthy reproduction of it's core defining tenets from generation to generation) implements some sort of balance between allowing and curbing of freedoms that was achieved during decades of trial and error.
The understanding of what constitutes freedoms and what not constantly changes in Western society. It is obvious that every current snapshot of currently allowed freedoms is not some kind of scientific truth, but a result of social agreement, social contract.
In the Western model there is no right and wrong except what is defined by some kind of core (majority, powers to be, media, charismatic figures, celebrities, some kind of elite, etc. - very vague and hard to define group really) of society.
So getting back to your observation: in 60s it was that way, now it is this way, tomorrow it will be a different way - but what is clear that it hardly affects the principles of Western society.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:3, Insightful)
it works (Score:2, Insightful)
Fixing the symptom, instead of the cause (Score:3, Insightful)
Politicians these days have no ideas on how to solve the enormous problems society has. They can only think of solutions that treat the symptoms and not the cause. The cause for civil unrest is, of course, the economic situation. It is bad, and it will only be worse in the future...and then no music will save us from the urban "terrorism".
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
The inner city kids have nothing to do because:
- There is a lack of adequate nature spaces and sports fields in the inner cities. Probably because land is at a premium and city councils would rather waste money in monthly glossy magazines promoting themselfs than in creating a well-balanced environment to live in.
- There are not enough community activities for young people in large part due to overboard Healt & Safety nuttyness blocking each an every inititiative that might involve any kind of risk (real or perceived).
Also:
- There are lots of self contained areas of high unemployment and poverty (aka Housing Estates).
- A media driven culture that values wealth and individualistic selfishness above all means that people around here are raised to not give a damn about other people, including their families.
So you end up with groups of hormone filled, immature youths with no money, no job and nothing to do, immersed in a culture that does not include the notion of respect for anybody else (not elders, not your parents, not teachers, nobody).
It's thus not suprising that England has the problems it has with youth violence ...
Re:Calculus Gang (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, XKCD is supposed to be funny?
Re:Maybe they'll grow up as well as old (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Insightful)
"Any moral superiority should be limited strictly to civilian law enforcement."
ROFL
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet most people think the country has got worse, and seem to blame the youth more and more.
You've just described every "older" generation in every country in the world all throughout human history.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Countries that are much more far-left politically than the UK don't have these problems, so your theory is crap.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Insightful)
A local coffee shop has done this for years. They're a little too close to the high school for comfort, so they installed a speaker outside playing classical/light jazz.
Ugh. Light jazz? What's that supposed to repel? People with taste? That crap is the worst kind of Muzak, not only repugnant to the senses, but the ultimate insult to what jazz is all about.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, another but no less harmful side-effect (IMHO), is throwing the book at an at-risk kid who would be better served by more attentive staff and counseling. I realize fully it's easy to make such statements when schools are often overwhelmed and often underfunded (although I *WAS* surprised to learn many bay-area teachers make ~$100K) and have no ability to provide such services.
Still, when funds are available I think some kind of intervention program would be more beneficial than "zero-tolerance" or being hassled by police as described by the parent post. Yes, there will be cases where an individual is incorrigible, but I think too many good apples are thrown out with the bad.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Insightful)
People have always thought things were getting worse as the country modernised. That phrase "going to the dogs" was coined in the 16th century.
Unfortunately people like having someone to blame and the media creates fear where there need not be any. It's ironic that anti-social behaviour is now being "tackled" with more anti-social behaviour. I wonder what would happen if I set up an ultra-sonic siren to scare off dog walkers who foul the pavement near my house? What about "stinger" spike strips to roll out in front of cyclists and invalid carriage drivers who use the pavement? I should start playing recorded lectures on atheism out my window the next time the church/mosque next door starts that annoying worshipping and to discourage their followers from hanging around in groups near where I live?
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Insightful)
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
I posted this above, too, but you guys are dense beyond belief.
It isn't a deterrent because they don't like the sounds hitting their ears.
It deters because it simply is not cool. See the comment above about getting the same mileage out of light jazz.
Gated communities? (Score:3, Insightful)
You've got to be kidding me. I've lived in the DC area my entire life and visit Baltimore quite a bit. The number of "gated communities" I've encountered could be counted on two hands. They're much more common out west, particularly in the Southwest like Vegas or Phoenix.
You really don't know what you're talking about. There are "bad" neighborhoods near DC (mostly in MD), but they are immediately adjacent to middle class neighborhoods with no barriers between. There are gangs and crime just like any urban area, but they are addressed with policing, youth centers, neighborhood watches, etc. Most of the cities you mention have seen dramatic drops in crime rates over the past 10-15 years.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:2, Insightful)
"Unethical" just doesn't quite do it (Score:3, Insightful)
This is absolutely disgusting, regardless of its effectiveness. Using Pavlonian conditioning to undermine free will is beyond inhumane.
Not only that, but they are also abusing these ancient and highly-prized works and further destroying anyone's interest in them in the future.
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:4, Insightful)
Or the crime rates actually drop when people think crime is a problem, and they raise as soon as people don't care as much anymore.
Re:What's that? A "war against youth"? (Score:4, Insightful)
You say it in jest, but I do actually think there's a grain of truth in that.
Imagine you're young, poor and you happen to hang out with people your age because they're seen as cool, but they're actually criminals-to-be. Why? Because you're a kid and don't know better. You only know that they have the fancy stuff (well, 5-finger discount makes it possible...) and they're "tough" and nobody messes with them, actually, they mess with you when they feel like. Attractive? You bet.
By the time you're 16, you have accumulated enough ASBOs and a file big enough to make you look like you're 20 when you step on it. That's also about the time when you rationalize: Fuck it, I'm fucked. With a record like this, I won't get a sensible job. So... why bother trying?
And you start to impress the younger kids, who look up to you, how cool you are, because you have all the fancy stuff and are tough...
Re:A Clockwork Orange (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd be interested to hear your theories as to how the worldwide recession and decline in religion are caused by UK socialised healthcare.
Isn't it just what you said in your own post ... money that used to be in private hands organised youth clubs and activities via the private / charity / church etc. sectors; nowadays that money gets taxed instead and spent by government on bigger/broader programs (which are also less religion-focused than e.g. a local church). As the state has gotten bigger, it's programs have supplanted more effective grass-roots ones that used to solve the problem at local level in communities, but now money is diverted from those to the state. The bigger the state gets, the less money every other non-state individual or organisation has, it's very simple.