Toyota Sudden Acceleration Is Driver Error 930
phantomfive writes "The NHTSA has investigated data recorders from Toyota cars whose owners claimed to have crashed due to an accelerator error. They found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't being pressed. The investigation looked at a sample of the cars, selected by the NHTSA." Jamie found this article with a superior headline at Balloon Juice.
I am not surprised.... (Score:5, Informative)
I am not surprised.... Same thing happened to Audi back in the day [manhattan-institute.org].
One thing for me that was a dead giveaway was that every single report regarding the Toyota sudden acceleration issue happened in the good old United States (Same for Audi, by the way). Statistically, it's very unlikely that such a problem would only happen in a single country even though these cars do not differ significantly between different countries. You'd expect a few deaths in Japan, France, German, the United Kingdom where Toyota cars are also very popular.
Too bad for Toyota that their brand has been permanently damaged in the US. (Just ask Audi how well it went for them the years after the accusations). GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:4, Informative)
It's the NHTSA's line, not Toyota's.
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:5, Informative)
GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.
Whom coincidentally spend lots of advertising dollars on the media people whom manufactured the Toyota problem.
Even more interesting is the graph of reported problems. Fits a very short term PR profile not a manufacturing defect profile.
Strangely enough (Score:3, Informative)
... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?
Toyota agrees with you: From TFA:
Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.
A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly."
Re:Not conclusive (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:5, Informative)
There were reports of stuck accelerators here in Australia for a while but it was the Fords not Toyotas.
Basically some guy rang police up on the freeway and claimed his cruise control was stuck at 80. There was a police chase/escort and eventually he was stopped. Soon after the incident there was a ton of idiots all ringing up talkback radio for days on end claiming the same thing happened to them in their Fords and that's why they crashed or got a speeding fine.
In the end the real storey started circulating. The guy who initially made the claim seemed to have issues. During the chase the police asked him to brake and he said it didn't work. They then asked him to change gear to neutral and he claimed it had no effect. They asked him to turn the key on a car with an old fashion manual key and he claimed that didn't work. His car was inspected afterwards and no fault was found.
In the end the reports of problems quickly disappeared. All the bandwagon jumpers suddenly shut the hell up.
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/no-sign-of-cruisecontrol-faults-20100107-lwrq.html [drive.com.au]
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:3, Informative)
And unlike Audi, Toyota behaved like a real jerk (in the strictest "corporate" sense) before it finally announced a recall. So some of the reputation damage was self-inflicted. How much of the total reputation damage is unclear, and how much is deserved is also just as cloudy.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
> I don't recall hearing/reading about them.
Oh please... google up "sudden acceleration".
One of the stories this will turn up is the recall of Audi 5000's in the 1980s. 60 Minutes covered the story and claimed to demonstrate the effect. They actually faked it with a compressed air bottle.
This topic has come up dozens of times, on dozens of models, in dozens of countries. To date, 100% of the time it's driver error.
Maury
Was not a Technician (Score:1, Informative)
The person that was able to cause a short was Dr. Dave Gilbert a professor at Southern Illinois University in the Automotive Tech Department.
It was shown on ABC's Nightline program.
link as follows http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/auto-professor-pinpoints-car-flaw-9916379 and http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-recall-electronic-design-flaw-linked-toyota-runaway-acceleration-problems/story?id=9909319
Re:What Else did the Data Recorders Show? (Score:4, Informative)
I don't disagree that these are all somewhat reasonable actions to try if all else failed. However...
Cutting the ignition won't destroy the engine. It can lock the steering if they turn the key all the way back though, which is why it's not generally recommended.
Shifting into park at speed is the same as shifting into neutral except the parking pawl will be skipping on top of its slot making a fast clicking noise. When you hit under 5mph or so the car would slam to a halt or the parking pawl would disintegrate.
Shifting into low gear won't happen in a modern auto transmission at speed. They won't lock into 2 until you are under 50mph or so.
But yeah, there's plenty they could have tried instead of focusing on praying. I guess that's what happens when you think an imaginary man is going to save you.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA:
"The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. Toyota hasn't been involved in interpreting the data."
and
"Still, since the start of Toyota's troubles late last summer, the Japanese company hasn't blamed drivers for any of the sudden-acceleration incidents, though in many cases the company couldn't find another cause. Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't pin the blame on customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.
"An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation. "Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.
"A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly.""
Toyota aren't "trying to get out of it that easily". They appear to have behaved commendably.
Re:This assumes... (Score:2, Informative)
No, it isn't "correct until proven otherwise". You've obviously never debugged anything more complex than hello world. All the evidence proves is that the car definitely thought the accelerator was floored and the brake pedal was up, which is consistent with the car's behaviour. So there's not a bug in the mapping of input data to output data. That doesn't mean the input data was correct. The evidence does nothing to prove that the accelerator actually was floored nor that the brake pedal was actually up.
The car is a total system. This evidence only examines a component of that system. The designers of the input->output mapping code are exonerated. The designers of the total system are not.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
This has happened with all automakers. Every automaker that I can think of has had a recall for floor mats interfering with the accelerator pedal. Honda had so many it redesigned the pedals on the new Civic to pivot from the floor instead of the firewall so the mats can't get under them.
This is just for model year 2009, I've seen more complete tables as well...
Unintended Acceleration - All Brands [cars.com]
Toyota got nailed because it got a lot of publicity. The other brands are all nervously waiting for someone to point the finger at them, knowing they all have these complaints... even with mounting evidence that it's driver error.
Car & Driver: Brakes overpower open throttle (Score:5, Informative)
br> Key facts:
1) In a Toyota, shifting into neutral while the throttle is wide open, will disengage the engine from the transmission and slow the car down. So all of the people claiming that these cars are all computers and not mechanical so it still wouldn't work, are full of crap.
2) They brought a standard Toyota Camry up to highway speed (including a 100 MPH test) and hit the brakes while still holding down the accelerator. The result? The brakes were able to overpower the engine and slow down the car. The faster your initial speed, the longer it took, but the distances, even at 100 MPH, were reasonably safe.
C/D's conclusion without actually analyzing the specific reported incidents, was that the most likely cause of these accidents was driver error, specifically people hitting the gas instead of the brake. The natural instinct for any driver if a car starts accelerating uncontrollably is to hit the brakes, which C/D has shown is sufficient to slow the car on its own. If that wasn't sufficient, then the thing to do is to shift into neutral. This real data from the incidents seems to support the gas instead of brake theory, and the statistics showing a sharp spike (and subsequent sharp drop-off) in "unintended acceleration" incidents after Toyota instated the recall for sticky accelerators and at a time when the US auto industry has one foot in the grave, Toyota is looking more and more in the clear on this one.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Informative)
Go read the article. Toyota acknowledges the problems with the sticky gas pedals and the floor mats, but denies there's a problem with the software/firmware. The article covers this thoroughly. The NHTSA, totally independently of Toyota (assuming you trust the reporting), examined some data recorders from cars where the driver claimed that they slammed on the brakes but the brakes didn't respond. The NHTSA found evidence that those drivers were actually pressing the accelerator, not the brake.
The data recorders, which the NHTSA used for their testing, are prototypes. Toyota has never claimed otherwise, and indeed has said that they are not reliable in determining the cause of a crash. This is straight out of the article. AS for Woz' particular problem, it wasn't addressed by the article at all, so I can't comment on it.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
No, that particular crash happened because the accelerator got stuck under the floor mat. That is one of the two categories of actual hardware errors that have been identified and is mentioned in TFA in addition to user error. Of course TFS doesn't mention it because as usual, slashdot is trolling for views and comments.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
He stated that the "Black box" in the cars are not always triggered.. The black box also relies on computer/electronic signals to activate the recording. As the issue with the throttle acceleration is electronic in nature, the cause of many of the accidents may also not trigger the recording. It also apparently does not activate at low speeds (exact definition of 'low speeds' or if it also excludes 'low starting speeds' was not given)
The accidents that don't trigger the recording were not part of the sample group evaluated by the article. The WSJ Quotes toyota claiming the black box is a prototype... and the radio speaker also stated that Toyota testified in court that the "Black Box" is not in and of itself reliable for determining the cause of an accident as it's prone to failure as, already mentioned, it relies on electronic signals from the car.
My opinion: Granted, all that said, I'm sure there's people who just want a piece of the lawsuit pie and are trying to shift blame ("I swear I hit the brakes and not the accelerator") and this article *can* support that to some degree... Though, there are likely legitimate claims --- back to the radio report; the electronic 'fail safe' system apparently is not very robust at handling failures of signals (either lack of, or improper signals) from the car...
Lastly, from what I've heard these are cherry-picked by Toyota and the radio station speaker stated that there is evidence by Toyota technicians a problem does exist (contrary to the article) -- however he feels this is simply the Public Relations team of Toyota doing it's job and showing that there's no issue (or the issue is more rare than news credits due to 'false claims').
Side note: the WSJ claims a similar problem arose in 1989
Side note 2: I'm simply trying to relay what I heard as criticism to the article to provide an alternate viewpoint/more information. I personally do not own a Toyota/Lexus, and otherwise am not attempting to defame anyone/start a debate on the issue.
Re:GIGO (Score:2, Informative)
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?
Clearly, Shakespeare had no love for lawyers or legal proceedings, and it's fair to say his audience probably didn't either. Some lawyers have tried to frame this as actually complimentary to lawyers, arguing that Shakespeare framed the men who were having this conversation as villains, but I think that's looking too deeply into it. Shakespeare wrote for his audience, and that whole scene was obviously intended primarily as comic relief. Throwing in a lawyer joke was an easy way to get laughs then just as it is now. The line about a single sealed (signed) document making one not his own man any more is the sort of biting social commentary Shakespeare often slipped into his comedies.
Re:This assumes... (Score:3, Informative)
COMPETITORS DO HAVE PROBLEMS. LOTS... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a list (SUA) sudden unintended acceleration complaints to the NHTSA
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/05/sudden.acceleration.fact.check/index.html [cnn.com]
Atop that, most of SUA complaints to the NHTSA are a sham.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/89-dead-in-the-nhtsa-complaint-database-it%E2%80%99s-a-sham/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
Its not about a design flaw, some people are on their cell phone, distracted, and in some cases plain DRUNK. One Toyota SUA had a driver with a blood alcohol level of .103 (link above). Its easier to blame the car rather then admit you were drinking or were texting on the cellphone.
In other cases it turned out to be a complete hoax (in the case of the California Prius incident):
http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html [forbes.com]
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/fox-is-sikes-a-balloon-boy/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
Loaner Car and bad Interface Design (Score:5, Informative)
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 that California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor was driving was a "loaner" vehicle given to him temporarily while his car was being repaired.
It has a "starter button" instead of an ignition key, and requires that the bnutton be depressed for 3 or more seconds if the car is in gear, or it may not function to turn the car off at all over certain velocities.
The shifter has a strange configuration which allows it to "emulate" a manual transmission while it is really an automatic transmission. The "N" position is also used to shift up a gear.
You can almost make it out in this photo at [motortrend.com]http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1004_2010_buick_lacrosse_2010_lexus_es_350_comparison/photo_22.html [motortrend.com] .
Article about why the starter button and transmission human interface may have been factors in the officer not being able to get the car out of gear:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/starter-button-a-factor-in-runaway-lexus-es350/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
Article about the crash :
http://www.sandiego6.com/mostpopular/story/Santee-CHP-officer-Saylor-killed-Lexus-accelerator/AzYjOhtvFE2mIuxTtxrK4Q.cspx [sandiego6.com]
Re:Almost Always User Error (Score:1, Informative)
You assume that the lights are controlled by a switch and a simple circuit and that's all.
Not assuming, because stopping lights are indeed controlled by a switch on the brake pedal.
. But it could be more complex than that,
Now you are assuming.
Re:Loaner Car and bad Interface Design (Score:3, Informative)
Not quite. "N" has its own position [skitch.com].
Although I admit I too was confused at first by the picture. It seems "N" and Tiptronic "+" should be on different planes.