To Ballmer, Grabbing iPad's Market Is 'Job One Urgency' 764
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by
kdawson
from the slate-envy dept.
from the slate-envy dept.
Barence writes "Microsoft's Steve Ballmer has vented his frustration at the success of the iPad and said developing a Windows alternative is 'job one urgency.' 'Apple has done an interesting job of putting together a synthesis and putting a product out, and in which they've... they sold certainly more than I'd like them to sell, let me just be clear about that,' Ballmer told analysts. The Microsoft boss said the company plans to deliver a range of tablet formats in the next year, some based on Intel's next-gen Oak Trail processor. 'It is job one urgency around here. Nobody is sleeping at the switch. And so we are working with those partners, not just to deliver something, but to deliver products that people really want to go buy.'" In Microsoft's vision, slates will run a derivative of Windows 7.
Anger. (Score:4, Insightful)
D'oh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Once again, Microsoft is late to the party and Ballmer's pissed. Hey, Steve, your company has never been a trendsetter! Deal with it.
I'm no Apple fan, but a company that can create markets out of thin air for products everyone else assumed would fail has to be doing something right.
Quit playing catch up, innovate! (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPad is old news. Wired reported on the existence of the iPad [boingboing.net] way back in 1999. Why wasn't Microsoft working on their iPad-competior way back then? More importantly, why are they trying to play catch up now? Should they not be working on the next big thing?
I don't want... (Score:4, Insightful)
Courier...the iPad Killer... (Score:2, Insightful)
...oops. Cancelled.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:1, Insightful)
And yet (Score:5, Insightful)
They killed the genuinely interesting-looking Courier before it ever got anywhere near production.
Can't think why the vultures are circling over Ballmer, can you?
Playing catchup (Score:5, Insightful)
This seems to be another "Johny come lately" attempt by Microsoft to catch up to Apple and Google. "Innovation" may be a big catchword these days by the large companies, but by making a competing project "job one urgency", it just underscore the fact that Microsoft is just trying to play a me-too game.
I don't mind if Microsoft does well or not, but why do they actively choose not to actually innovate? Do they not understand that the success of search engines, phones, tablets, and everything else that they've been late to the market on is because...well, because they're late to the market.
I simply don't understand why Microsoft doesn't get it. Innovating requires *new* ideas. Otherwise, they might as well be another Chinese second rate copy.
From an iPad owner (Score:5, Insightful)
I own an iPad. It's nice for what it is, a media consumption device.
What amazes me though is the time it's taking for viable alternatives. It wasn't in any way a surprise that Apple launched this. It wasn't a surprise that this would be a new market segment - netbooks had already shown demand for lower cost highly portable computing devices.
I purchased the iPad for a specific function and it does its job well. However, I can see plenty of areas it could be improved. We're still waiting on multi-tasking. It has no camera a gaping hole in what would otherwise be a great device for grandparents to use for web/email and skype). No flash does limit some sites, and Safari is just okay, certainly not a great browser - you have to pay to get a browser that supports tabs!
The email client seems cumbersome, and from a business user perspective, Microsoft could really make a killing from a similar form factor but with outlook. Outlook is, after all, still king in the corporate world.
The competition needs to get in gear before the iPad becomes as entrenched as the iPod.
Re:It's a big responsibility (Score:1, Insightful)
Apple's designs set the trend for knock-off electronics for years. How many phones since the iPhone have been made to "look like the iPhone?" How many MP3 players since the iPod? Now the tablet computer. Apple has a lot of weight on its shoulders because there's a giant knock-off industry just waiting to see what they'll do next.
To be fair, to the extent that "there's a giant knock-off industry" waiting to see what Apple does, Apple itself is a giant knock-off company.
How many smart phones and PDAs were around before the iPhone? How many MP3 players were around before the iPod?
Apple's successes in those areas are because they knocked off the previous products really well. The iPad is really the first arena they're entering where there really wasn't much of an existing market.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Because that's going to make far less money in the long run. And the reality is that if Apple wants to see Microsoft (one of their largest competitors) dead, they'd probably just not approve their apps anyways.
With garbage tablet PC's they're going to lose money, not make far less. And the reality is that Microsoft already has some free software out for the iPhone/iPod Touch (Windows Live Messenger, Bing, Tag Reader, Seadragon Mobile). Apple's not going to kill their apps. Having more apps available for the iPad increases it's perceived value to the consumer.
Ballmer's phrasing is telling (Score:5, Insightful)
>they sold certainly more than I'd like them to sell
Not "we'd like to sell more", not "we'd like to supply their software and participate in their success like we did with AppleSoft Basic and Mac Office".
This is competitiveness in its pathological form, where the point isn't to win but instead to make sure others lose.
Tough time for a fanboy (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
'Because that's going to make far less money in the long run.'
Is it? Microsoft has already basically conceded that Apple has won this round. As Apple very well knows from the early desktop days, once a competitor has a solid lead in the market share it is very, very difficult to get the market back. It seems like whatever Microsoft's offering for this market is, it's probably never going to be as popular as the iPad.
Software is supposed to be Microsoft's main business, not hardware. Producing quality apps for the iPad as well as for various other portable devices that hopefully *other* people make, but which run Windows, would be their best bet, money wise. I haven't been able to see why, for some time now, Microsoft won't just focus on producing good products in one area (software) rather than producing shitty products in lots of areas.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft, why don't you just write some QUALITY software for the iPad instead of trying to go head on in competition? That way, the more iPads Apple sells, the more software you sell. It's win-win.
But we, the consumers would lose. Without a healthy competition, there is no pressure to lower prices. And, there is no pressure to innovate on the existing iPad for Apple. So, yes, I would love to see many tablets - some with an Apple OS, some with Windows, and some with Android. What could be better than having the choice?
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft, why don't you just write some QUALITY software
Because that goes against everything they stand for.
That way, the more iPads Apple sells, the more software you sell. It's win-win.
NO! There is no win-win: the other guy has to lose! They MUST lose! You're not a winner unless someone else is hurting.
Re:Quit playing catch up, innovate! (Score:5, Insightful)
More importantly, why are they trying to play catch up now?
They see Apple making monies, they want THOSE monies.
Microsoft is a three year old child.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:4, Insightful)
To be honest, they're better off buying HTC, or releasing their own version of an Android tablet. They're far less likely to fuck it up if they do that,
I disagree - in my opinion, they'd "Buy HTC" - move all the hardware to Windows mobile, and HTC will just be a memory.
Re:D'oh. (Score:3, Insightful)
It is job one urgency around here. Nobody is sleeping at the switch.
Nobody is sleeping at the switch... We just woke up in a panic... !
Re:I hate unoriginal people like Ballmer (Score:5, Insightful)
MS has not recently issued an new product. It's always me too.
Replace "recently" with "ever" and your sentence is fixed.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
As Apple very well knows from the early desktop days, once a competitor has a solid lead in the market share it is very, very difficult to get the market back.
Really? Ask Wordstar, Wordperfect, Lotus 1-2-3, dBaseIII, Netscape, and countless other companies what fat lot of good the early lead did for them?
Re:Playing catchup (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's a big responsibility (Score:1, Insightful)
Um yeah, Apple totally ripped off the Rio. That's why the iPod looks nothing like it, behaves nothing like it and became the standard MP3 player.
And for the iPhone, it's obviously a total knock off of the Blackberry Storm / HTC Evo / Samsung Instinct / Palm Pre / LG Ally / etc / etc / etc, except they came out *after* the iPhone.
There already is a tablet computer market. And the iPad is nothing like any of them (or the UMPCs). I didn't say Apple *invented* these technologies, I said they set the design trend. Want to see what Windows 8 is going to look like? Wait to see what Apple announces for Mac OS 10.7.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, Apple would never just invents pretenses on which to reject applications from vendors which are major competitors with Apple in other markets from the App Store. Which is why you can buy the native Google Voice app that Google built for the iPhone in the App Store.
Re:D'oh. (Score:3, Insightful)
but a company that can convince people they need a product that does the same thing as other gadgets they already own has to be doing something right.
FTFY.
And yes, Slashdot, this is just my opinion. Sorry if it angers you.
If you get modded down for that remark it's because you've stated the obvious, but failed to understand it. "Creating a Market" == "Convincing people they need something" regardless of if they have a different gadget that does the same thing or not, Creating a new market always means you have to convince the customer that they need your new thing, because it's better, different, and uniquely qualified to make the customer happier than if they didn't buy the new thing. What sets Apple apart seems to be that it's found a formulae that works. And I don't know if anyone else seems to be aware of this on Slashdot, but it's not only the fanbois that are selling their stuff, its the bashbois too: By "protesting so much" they are keeping Apple in the news, and in front of the world.
LOL, fail (Score:2, Insightful)
The iPad is fantastic for couch surfing. Watching TV, "Who's that actor?", grab the iPad, turn it on, hit the web browser, type the name--instant gratification. I can just see how well this is going to work with Windows 7...turn it on, wait, wait, MSpad wants to download update KB8675390, wait, reboot, wait, wait, dismiss the notification about unused desktop items, let the virus checker load an update, wait wait, wait, dismiss notification about network drives that couldn't be reconnected, wait, start web browser, wait, wait, wait....
Yeah, I really want the overhead of a major OS like Windows on my pad. Tards.
Re:From an iPad owner (Score:1, Insightful)
"I purchased the iPad for a specific function and it does its job well."
I recently had the opportunity to play around with an iPad, and yes, I was absurdly pleased with the look, feel, and usability mechanics of the thing. But as I played some more, it struck me that the elation I felt with it was very similar to that experienced when I got a new toy as a child. I am fairly certain that I would quickly become bored of an iPad. That made me think "Really, what IS this thing for? What is its niche, EXACTLY?" It's not a development tool, it doesn't support Flash or multi-tasking, and there is no USB port or camera. (Yes, I realize that subsequent versions may well address all of these issues.) For me, it's a nifty e-reader and not much else, but that's not enough to make me buy one.
So what is this thing, exactly? I'd be interested to hear why people purchase them and what they use them for.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Excellent list. I'd offer one even more profound example. Apple. The Apple II (combined with VisiCalc) redefined the personal computer from hobbyist novelty to must-have business tool. If anyone has had a front-row seat to how the industry works, it's Apple.
Re:Anger. (Score:5, Insightful)
They seriously don't get it. The very statement that it will be running a derivative of Win7 says that they are doomed from the start. Actually, not that Win7 is bad, on the contrary even as a MacFanBoy I like Win7 but it's not the right OS for a tablet platform. They keep trying to shoehorn the same thing to be a one OS meets all. They have no ability to step back and say what does the market need and what is the solution the users needs. All they seem to be able to do is ask "What is the problem and how can we solve it with Windows?". The concept of thinking outside the box simply does not exist in Redmond. Really sad as I'm sure at the worker level there are a ton of very smart, all be it ,very frustrated software engineers.
Urgency is not the answer (Score:5, Insightful)
Urgency is not going to produce a quality product. According to Jobs the iPad was in development before the iPhone, they have been waiting for technology to catch up the the design. They have spent serious time and money on both hardware and software design.
You don't turn around and make a high quality product in 6 months, sure you might already have the core of the OS ready to go, but to develop the UI and the applications and come up with a consistent user experience takes time and effort, lots of it. If MS rushes to release a tablet in 6 months it will not be good. It will not likely even be good enough. Sure the people who want to be different might buy it, much like they bought the zune, but making a quality, easy to use product does not happen overnight.
My professional career has been spent creating high end, end user software with a specialization in user interface design and development. Most developers consider this to be something that gets tacked on at the end but it is not and the iPad (and any competitor to the iPad) is more about the UI than anything else and trust me, the UI matters more to most users than just about anything else.
Re:Good luck with that. (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft will be successful with it just like they were successful with netbooks. They came into the game late with an inferior product, but used their position to push the hardware manufacturers and retailers to sell XP netbooks instead of Linux netbooks.
Microsoft needs a new CEO (Score:2, Insightful)
staring him in the face (Score:5, Insightful)
"In Microsoft's vision, slates will run a derivative of Windows 7."
and therein lies the problem.
Re:Anger. (Score:3, Insightful)
Shocking news. Microsoft upset that someone is succeeding by innovating rather than generating bloatware / buying out competition.
Re:D'oh. (Score:3, Insightful)
Once again, Microsoft is late to the party and Ballmer's pissed.
Except that Microsoft has been developing software for the Tablet PC market since 2001. They incorporated this into the main build of Windows with Service Pack for of Windows XP. Rather than being late, they were too early so that the tablets were too big and heavy.
Also, they assumed that people wanted the full Windows interface, which doesn't lend itself to the less precise controls of pen and finger input. They made that same mistake with Windows Mobile too. Back in the early PDA days, that was the reason why I prefered the simple interface of PalmOS (from which the iPhone interface borrows heavily).
Ballmer is pissed not because Microsoft was late, but that they were never able to capture the user's imagination with their tablet technology. Apple got it right because they were able to see the mistakes that Microsoft made compared to their opposition at the time.
Re:Way way too late Ballmer (Score:4, Insightful)
Even Gates wasn't fully on top of things BUT he was at least in the same ballpark.
Note that MS under Gates' watch had successful (and ruthless) business practices to make sure that MS made heaping tons of money, even without being a major market innovator. It was often easier to let others innovate, then use a combination of financial might, second-mover advantage, and sometimes a bit 'o market leverage to move in and take over.
I'm frankly a bit shocked at how much this news item echoes Ballmer's earlier pathetic whinging about iPod and then iPhone. It's unacceptable that a major corporate CEO should sound like such a broken record when the message being repeated is "failure!"
Re:I don't get it. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Without a healthy competition, there is no pressure to lower prices.
Healthy competition? What healthy competition? It certainly won't be in the form of Micro-Soft's rush-job tablets.
Re:Anger. (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you have any idea how many times Microsoft has already launched a "tablet that is more like a PC"?
I've lost count. Probably five times at least, going back to the days of Windows 95 for Pen Computing.
Each and every time, it has failed miserably.
Then Apple make a tablet that is not "more like a PC". And they succeed wildly.
And then you claim that making a tablet like a PC is supposed to be an advantage.
Re:And yet (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing about Courier is that nobody ever saw it actually working: they just saw tech demos. In the tech demos, the stylus handwriting recognition was always perfect. Considering that we never once saw an on-screen keyboard in the demos, it appears that the handwriting recognition portion of the formula was crucial to the concept. What do you want to bet that it wasn't nearly as good as it was supposed to be? Can you say Newton? "Eat up Martha?"
There was one other thing that made me think that perhaps it was less realistic than it first appeared: Battery life vs. weight. With both of those screens going all the time, that's two separate backlights sucking power. Either the weight would have to be a lot heavier than the iPad's (which is already heavier than I would like), or the battery life would be much worse.
Remember: Lies, Damn lies, Statistics, and Tech Demos.
Re:Anger. (Score:4, Insightful)
It is exactly the same thinking that killed DEC, killed DG, killed "enter name", companies that only see a market from the perspective of what they currently manufacture.
Like them or not, contrast the two companies, Apple and Microsoft and where they have come from and what they currently make. Apples main revenue stream did not exist when Apple was formed. Microsoft is still a 2 product company and gets its revenue from the same 2 product lines they started with. They are a "deer in the headlights". They can't think outside of what brings in their current revenue. The concept of killing your own so you can grow into new markets is a totally foreign concept, and IMHO, will kill them in the end if they don't learn to change.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
garbage tablet PC? you mean the ipad? that isn't a tablet pc at all. go on, try to install an arm binary on it and get it to run? how about sync it on a platform without iTunes? play videos, you knowns ones not out of quicktime(again not available on all platforms).. so yes, the iPad is a nice device, but a tablet PC it is not.
*Go ahead mods, i have some karma to burn...
Microsoft, not even worth hating anymore. (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, it's like kicking a hurt puppy or something.
Re:Anger. (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you imagine what it's like to be a small child, seeing Steve Jobs hold a piece of candy in front of you, to hold it before you and tell you how great its going to be, how it's everything you could possibly want. And then lick his tongue all over it just before giving it to you? This is what it feels like to be someone who reallly wants a nice, tablet form-factor device without a sodding keyboard attached to it, and then find that the only one that is pretty much decent is locked down and made into a device for consuming games and media.
Microsoft are going to make a tablet? About fucking time. I want to take notes on it with a stylus, not wave my fingers over the screen going 'oooo, I can make pictures big'. I want to be able stuff a USB stick in the side of it and put directories of data on it, not sync it to a fucking iTunes program running on an entirely separate computer (because, amongst other things, my Gentoo box really loves running iTunes). The iPad is pricey, pre-licked candy. Until someone else opens a sweetshop and starts selling their own candy, the only way you're getting any is with Steve Job's drool over it. Bring on the rivals, I say.
Re:I don't want... (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft's penis envy is lame, old, and disingenuous to its share holders. Grabbing the iPad's market share is job one... pheh. Here's Apple buzz "I wonder what Jobs will do next?" Here's Microsoft's: "I wonder what Ballmer's excuse will be this time?" Rather than chasing after Apple, RIM, Adobe, ..
Message to Ballmer: Try some of that. Do. Execute. Create. I N N O V A T E. Stop being lame. Ya big tard.
Re:Anger. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll wait as long as I have to to get a proper tablet computer that isn't just a media consumption device. My laptop isn't that heavy.
Re:Anger. (Score:3, Insightful)
Whose version of the tablet PC are you interested in? I'm also interested to see other takes on the tablet. I think HP could do something interesting with WebOS. Android? Maybe. Windows? I'm skeptical.
Re:Anger. (Score:5, Insightful)
And if there's anything that Microsoft as a company should be angry about, that's it. Bill Gates stood there ten years ago and told us that tablet PCs were the future of computing, that a significant portion of PCs sold would be tablets within a few years, and Microsoft failed to make it happen. They failed to make tablet computing sufficiently different from a laptop PC experience, and consumers didn't give tablet PCs a second look.
Now Apple has succeeded in a major way at what Microsoft completely failed at, and boy, that must be embarrassing.
Re:Anger. (Score:3, Insightful)
Lol if you honestly think that at the end of the day Apple is worth more than Microsoft
Where does this attitude come from? It's very simple: stock price times shares. If the gp's numbers are from yesterday's closing price, then yes, at the end of the day Apple WAS worth more than Microsoft by simple multiplication. The only 'lol' is that you're trying to make fun of someone who has correctly performed basic math.
Company worth is reflective of their expected near/mid term future income, not a sci-fi scenario where thier competitors magically disappear.
Re:Anger. (Score:5, Insightful)
Today AAPL cap is $235 B, MSFT is 221 B, according to Google quotes.
If they only sold a bunch, one can rightfully assume that it's "Apple Fanboys", but they're not selling by the bucket-load, they're selling these things by the millions even if you're scratching your head "why?".
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/06/22/ipad-sales-accelerate/ [cnn.com] iPad sales accelerate, 3 million sold in 80 days or one every 2.3 seconds
When someone is successful, it's useful to think about why they are successful - and sure if they stop doing "whatever they are doing wrong" maybe they will continue or prevent their future failure - or maybe there is something else going on and figuring out the reason can be quite informative. If you just think about the negative, you may never find out the truth. Who is buying it, what are people using it for, what are advantages - and it is a mistake to assume only idiots are buying it. Even if that is the case, remember the adage that you can learn from anyone, even an idiot.
I don't have one. I'm waiting to see what they do with V2.0. I'm thinking "why would I want one?" and I've been surprised that I have found a number of times where it could be useful.
Re:Good luck with that. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that a netbook interface is pretty much identical to a normal PCs interface, so Windows works "good enough" and is more familiar to most users. The traditional Windows paradigm does NOT work well in a touch-only, tablet interface. If they insist on using it, they will fail. It doesn't matter how much money they throw at it... look at the Zune.
Re:Anger. (Score:5, Insightful)
You really do wonders for the research last week that characterised iPad owners as selfish affluent types. :D
Why do you put "essential" in quotes? I determine what I want from a device, not you. If I say I want to be able to manage file transfers and organization on a device before I buy it, then silly comments about why don't I pick up a can of pringles aren't going to make the device something I want.
Your comment about a "cut-rate" device make no logical sense when I'm saying I want the device to have more features. Your comments about business users being a "very small market populated by low-disposable-income types" make even less sense.
And the way you mock people when you suspect they might not have a lot of money doesn't suggest much nice about you.
And for all the relevance it has to a discussion about market requirements for tablet form-factor devices, I'm not eating Pringles, right now. I'm eating a quiche.
Relax a bit. There's room for more than one type of tablet in the world. It's not worth taking these things personally.
Regards,
H.
Re:Anger. (Score:3, Insightful)
I've got one of the latest Windows 7 tablet laptops - a Fujitsu T900 with a Wacom digitizer, 4 GB RAM, OneNote 2010, the works. I bought it so I could digitize my class notes for the courses I teach.
To put it bluntly - it sucks. For example, no matter how I calibrate the screen, as I write from the left side to the right side of the screen, the registration of the pen tip on the screen shifts by about 1/16 of an inch. It's just enough to drive me crazy when I try to sketch a large circuit, or write a long equation, that covers the full width of the screen. My co-worker, who bought the same model, has exactly the same problem. Sometimes as I write, my hand hits the "flip orientation" button on the edge of the screen, and I have to stop and re-flip the screen back to the correct orientation. I could go on and on about the various glitches, bugs, and bad design choices, but the point is that this is a top-of-the-line $2500+ pen-based laptop, the very best that Microsoft, Wacom, and Fujitsu working together could manage after years of refinement, and I simply want to toss it in the trash when I compare it to my Macbook.
It's the same old story, over and over. When Microsoft defines a market, they define it with mediocrity. Microsoft unseat the iPad? Only in their dreams. If Apple were to release a pen-based iPad, I would run, not walk, to the nearest Apple store and buy it.
Re:Playing catchup (Score:2, Insightful)
That's Microsoft's bread and butter, producing 2nd rate copies. From their OS, Browser, and Office products. Microsoft has never innovated. They just copy and use their market size to get people to use their products. On-line search, iPhones, iPods, and iPads are areas where their PC dominance doesn't work.
Once you've uncoupled from the PC, Microsoft has no leverage. Their Zune was a flop. Their KIN was a failure and they don't have a tablet PC to offer.
As people become more mobile, Microsoft becomes less relevant. Their only hope is the cloud and Google is already there.
Re:Anger. (Score:3, Insightful)
2 product lines...
Windows
Office
Every thing else they make is either a looser wrt revenue & profit - Xbox, zune, et. al.
or just noise.
Re:Anger. (Score:3, Insightful)
If Windows disappeared, we could still run Win32 programs using WINE. If Office disappeared, we could still use OpenOffice. It wouldn't be as chaotic as you think.
If Apple disappeared, the industry would be a lot more stagnant since they've been at the lead of nearly every trend since the original iMac. But Apple has never been interested in being everywhere. They're interested in being the best in a few areas.
Mentioning Steve Jobs by name (Score:1, Insightful)
P.S. You use Gentoo. You're not the target market for an iPad. You're also one of these Apple-haters who obsesses over Steve Jobs and thinks he can hear you if you mention him by name.
Re:Anger. (Score:4, Insightful)
Complaining about tone is ad hominem. Address the argument:
Are you willing to pay more money than the cost of an iPad for a device that is bigger, has worse battery life, runs windows and lets you manage your own synchronization?
You can't just whinge that the market isn't serving you.
The truth is, those devices have existed since the ThinkPad and still exist -- and yet you aren't saying you use or still use yours (never mind that the Newton was better by every metric that doesn't include running PhotoShop 3.5).
E.g., I've had one of these for almost 20 years: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:710T [thinkwiki.org]
Barking Dog Ballmer (Score:2, Insightful)
Its not OR, its AND (Score:3, Insightful)
You have to stop with your 'Winner take all" mentality.
Apple is quite happy NOT making cars, GPS systems, kitchen cabinets or of being the sole provisioner of everything to everybody. (There is something very "Soviet Union" in that attitude.)
Apple makes cool products. Sometime those products USE computers to make them cool.