Officials Use Google Earth To Find Unlicensed Pools 650
Officials in Riverhead, New York are using Google Earth to root out the owners of unlicensed pools. So far they've found 250 illegal pools and collected $75,000 in fines and fees. Of course not everyone thinks that a city should be spending time looking at aerial pictures of backyards. from the article: "Lillie Coney, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, DC, said Google Earth was promoted as an aid to curious travelers but has become a tool for cash-hungry local governments. 'The technology is going so far ahead of what people think is possible, and there is too little discussion about community norms,' she said."
They collected $75,000... (Score:5, Insightful)
but how much did it cost?
This is an appropriate use. (Score:5, Insightful)
It is the government office saving money instead of hiring a plane to fly over the neighborhood and take pictures. Or are you going to say that you have a right to privacy from the air? Get real. A $300 fine ($75,000 / 250) doesn't sound excessive for a permit violation either. Now all those pools also need to be inspected for possible code violations. That is where it might get expensive.
-molo
Oh no... (Score:4, Insightful)
...the government caught me in the act of doing something illegal using public information that's been available for years now! Bad Big Brother!
Permits are hard to get around here to do anything though. Which sucks. But if you choose to break the law, you should be aware of the potential consequences and the chance of getting caught. Given the public images of homes it should not be too surprising that something like this would happen eventually.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is an appropriate use. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. They are essentially DOING THEIR JOB but with the added efficiency of Google Earth. I don't see a problem here.
Re:When a pool fails... (Score:2, Insightful)
So if the pool had been licensed then the water wouldn't have done as much damage to your friends back yard when it collapsed?
Talk about google privacy at defcon (Score:5, Insightful)
So for all the good google does, this is one small way that it hurts some. That's not to say though, that the people who have these pools are innocent. Yes, we're a capitalistic society as many think, but no, you don't pay to have the roads you drive on to be paved, you contribute like everyone else does in small amounts. And without those small amounts almost nothing would be possible as we get much more and further by working together than alone.
http://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-speakers.html#Marlinspike [defcon.org]
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Community norms... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:When a pool fails... (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't have any experience with pools, but I can tell you that building inspectors are, in general, pretty mediocre. They will approve the most bizarre plans, and then suddenly become as tough as nails over the most ludicrous things. Someone once told me that building inspectors are usually failed contractors, and I believe it.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, just like you have to get a permit to build a shed, or floor over a previously open loft area. It's called "zoning and planing" and it's been around for quite some time.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:5, Insightful)
A swimming pool is a massive adjustment to the landscape, involving excavation multiple feet down. You don't know what pipes or wires might be down there. And what if you're on a hill and it breaks because it wasn't properly made, causing a landslide?
Note, by the way, in the BODY of the article, the word 'license' never shows up. Instead they use variations on 'permit' which sounds much more logical. If you want a pool, you get an inspector, they ensure there's no rogue wiring or geographic problems, they tell the city, then you get your zone permitted to install a pool.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
you must be a renter. you need a permit for any modification of your property. my father in law built a deck years ago. neighbor ratted him out and a city inspector showed up. made him hire an architect to verify the safety of the deck and they added it to the home listing in the public records for property taxes.
in the NYC burbs the way it works is the county makes up a budget for the upcoming fiscal year. then they look at the population and the property owned by everyone including all improvements. and there is a formula to determine what your share of the budget is based on the value of your property. the more improvements to your home the larger your share of taxes. in some NJ towns you have to let an inspector in every 2 years or else they just make you pay the max property taxes allowed. something like $14000 per year
yes the USA is the land of the free, but almost everyone has neighbors and this is the government's way to make sure that whatever you do to your home is not a safety or quality of life issue for your neighbors. you want freedom buy a house in montana away from everyone and do whatever you want
this is not something new. probably has been around for hundreds of years and i bet it goes back to england like a lot of US laws and traditions do
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
The summary uses the wrong word. You need a _permit_ to build a pool. Just like every other significant structure built on your property, or significant change to such a structure.
The idea behind it is there's a long history of contractors "cutting corners" to the point where the structures they create are not sound. You have to pay for a permit, and in return you receive inspections by the town/county building inspector. The inspectors confirm that the work is structurally sound. The bonus for the contractor is if the city's building inspector passes the work, that greatly reduces the contractor's liability in the event of a future catastrophe.
In reality, it's a system that works quite well. The US has a much lower rate of structure failure than other nations (see: Hati). In addition, we have a much lower incidence of other harm from faulty building (see: Accidental Electrocutions in Brazil).
Unfortunately, it is often conflated in the minds of libertarians with Homeowners Associations, which can put their own restrictions on what can and can not be built. Such restrictions are usually 100% cosmetic and 100% arbitrary. The difference is you are only required to follow their rules if you chose to live in their neighborhood. Building codes, and thus laws regarding permits, are generally statewide.
Re:When a pool fails... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a pretty disgusting attitude.
The proper reason for a lawsuit is to recover actual damages, not treat every accident like a lottery ticket.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:4, Insightful)
Much of this framework also comes from the assumption that one will not hold onto their property indefinitely.. and thus the next owners are assured that things were properly constructed to within certain guidelines. In the case of a pool this can be important since much of that information disappears once the pool is complete and a new owner can not verify without basically tearing up the pool again. Same with many of the regulations regarding home construction... without inspection and permits you really do not know if a house was built correctly without tearing into parts of it.
Re:This is an appropriate use. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, in fact, it is their job.
Years ago as a co-op student I worked as an Engineering Assistant for the city where I live. We had to go into people's yards all the time. We checked drains, sewers, sidewalks, easements, measured grades, took drinks from the taps (water samples if anyone asked) and made sure people were obeying bylaws. (The last one was only if we happened to see something like an absurdly green lawn during water restrictions or endangered trees being chopped down.)
You don't own any part of your land but the top. The rest belongs to the government. They can go in and look at their land any time they want. Look it up.
Also, it's a fucking pool so you can't hide it.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:4, Insightful)
You are really comparing ALL workers in the private industry--including Wal-Mart greeters, janitorial staff, part-time construction workers, farm workers, etc.--against public industry employees who probably skew heavily towards college-educated? Why would you think this is a valid comparison?
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a bad thing when it's not under control. Every place I have lived in FL, IL, and WI has had citywide bans on grills on balconies. I have used grills on all balconies. This is because I know how to be safe with fire and a grill.
The laws are because stupid people do stupid things that ruin it for the rest of us.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, they would just lie. Like they already do about flooding.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
There are NO natural rights. There are only rights that we have granted ourselves by organizing into societies that defend them. And yes, that is one of the main reasons for having societies.
Permit help enforce safety... (Score:3, Insightful)
... which is vital. If a person builds a pool and skips out of the permit, they could find themselves in dire straits should someone ever drown in said pool. If proper safety specs are not met, the pool could be dangerous in how it was designed and built. And in some cases, if a person is too cheap to get the permit, they're likely getting the pool for as cheap as possible.
Permits are necessary for displacement of land. If you remove trees to put in your pool, you're losing one of natures ways of keeping erosiion under control and other environmental issues that might take place. When a neighborhood gets some massive flooding, and the county has worked to ensure proper drainage for that home and neighborhood and now someone comes along and builds a pool without considering that drainage, that pool may upset the designed flow and cause flooding in certain circumstances.
Besides, permits that they are dodging, their may be additional taxes and proper insurance that is required. People who do this are very selfish.
I think (not sure) that city govt. personnel don't have permission to just walk onto someone's property even if they suspect unlawful building. Google Earth allows the city/county employees to perform the jobs that we, the tax payers pay them to do without violating any laws.
I'm perfectly happy that they have found a safe and legal way of enforcing city/county ordinances.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>government employees typically have salaries a good bit below that in the private sector
My engineering job with the FAA was the highest-paying job I've ever had ($55/hour). My second highest commercial/government contractor job was $7 an hour lower.
I also made note that most of the government employees didn't actually do much work (surfing the net instead). It struck me that this FAA building's sole purpose was probably to help the Congressman/Senator get reelected every few years..... i.e. white collar welfare. In the private sector the building would have been closed and/or 75% of the staff laid off to more accurately match the human resources to the workload.
Government is more efficient? Hardly.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:4, Insightful)
What gives me the right to tell you what you can do over there, presuming you're not poisoning my grass or shining a 10 kw laser though my living room?
Because we all live in a club, called "society", where we make certain sacrifices to personal freedom to help everybody. As a society, we've decided that you can't be a jerkass by building unsightly properties next to others, because it takes too much away from property values and deprives others' of their own enjoyment of their property. As a society, we've decided that you should need a permit to build a pool, because it needs to meet certain standards that aim to keep others safe. You enjoy the services that society gives you, like the right to own your own property, so society expects you to play by the rules.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:2, Insightful)
He who would trade a little liberty to gain a little safety deserves neither, and loses both. Think about that, you statist toad.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:5, Insightful)
I love the libertarian answer for everything. Of course that answer doesn't prevent the problems from occurring or stop preventable deaths.
Why don't we go ahead and trash the food safety regulations too? After a couple dozen deaths from E.coli the affected restaurant will be out business.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? So the Square-D QO circuit breakers I buy at Home Depot are crap, but the brand-X circuit breakers the electricians put in are fine. The Romex-brand 12/2 (with ground) wire I buy at Home Depot is crap, but the same stuff put in by an electrician is fine? The Schedule 40 PVC pipe from Home Depot is crap, the stuff the plumber uses is fine? The Armstrong tile I buy at Home Depot is crap, the same stuff put in by a flooring guy is fine?
This is why we outsource to India (Score:3, Insightful)
So the US pay officials to spend hours poring over Google maps to find violations, whereas India sets up a Facebook page to report violations and instantly rakes in the dough. Knowing suburban neighbours, I'll give good odds as to which method will yield better results for pool violations...
Phillip.
Re:One of two options (Score:2, Insightful)
The $300 is the permit fee. Then there's an inspection, at which they'll find niggling issue after issue requiring reinspection until you finally take the hint and slip a few Benjamins to the inspector. Then they raise your property tax $10,000/year because your property is now assessed for more.
There are no methods for doing so which are both lawful and effective.
Re:Ah. Risk. RISK!?!?!? Oh Noes (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure. It's ridiculous. Anything else you want to know? Now, have you heard of the concept of raising children with supervision until they are capable enough to go unsupervised, and then letting them go unsupervised?
Perhaps more to the point, have you heard of the word "responsibility"?
Why should *I* be responsible to fence my property in order to try and (inadequately and inappropriately and indirectly) parent your children for you?
If you want to have kids, you bear the responsibility for that decision. In every way. Not me. I didn't ask you to have kids, and I could care less if you do or not. Just keep them out of my yard and you, and I, will never have an issue. Think you can do that? If you can't, please abstain from having children. Thank you.
Re:They collected $75,000... (Score:4, Insightful)
And not much else...yes, we know. You fail to think critically about things like "improperly installed pools can leak and your neighbor'ss basement" or "are you putting that pool directly under power lines" or " did you bother to make sure there were no gas lines buried under the area you're thinking of putting your pool" or "did you know your property once used a septic tank...which is currently under the area in which you wish to place a pool" or "making sure there's proper fencing with locks to keep the neighbor's kids out of your pool when no one's watching so they don't drown". Yes, I went with the "won't someone please think of the children argument" because there's too many people who feel they should be allowed to be in a society and benefit from it without contributing too much personal responsibility as they do so.
There's a reason other people call people like you crackpots.
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
The tax you paid on the materials for your garage goes to the state, to ensure that you have a working highway and court system so you and the carpenter who built the garage can do business in peace and harmony.
The tax you pay on the garage every year afterwards goes to the city or county, to ensure that when the garage catches fire, there's a fire department to save the rest of your house and the neighborhood.
Stop looking at taxes as just "the Man wants my money", and look at what that money gives you.