The 'Net Generation' Isn't 435
Kanel introduces this lengthy review in Spiegel Online this way: "Kids that grew up with the Internet are not 'digital natives' as consultants have led us to believe. They're OK with the Net but they don't care much about Web 2.0 and find plenty of other things more important than the Internet. Consultants and authors, mostly old guys, have called for the education system to be reworked to suit this new generation, but they never conducted surveys to see if the members of 'generation @' were anything like what they had envisioned. Turns out, children who have known the Net their whole lives are not particularly skilled at it, nor do they live their lives online." "Young people have now reached this turning point. The Internet is no longer something they are willing to waste time thinking about. It seems that the excitement about cyberspace was a phenomenon peculiar to their predecessors, the technology-obsessed first generation of Web users. ...they certainly no longer understand it when older generations speak of 'going online.' ... Tom and his friends just describe themselves as being 'on' or 'off,' using the English terms. What they mean is: contactable or not."
Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:5, Insightful)
There were no Techy generations. There were Techy people, be they blacksmiths or chip designers.
Techy people of different generations did their thing, but most people are spectators who don't WANT to know how things work.
They always will be, and for geeks, this is good.
Premise determines solution (Score:1, Insightful)
If you're asking why the latest generation wasn't fooled by "web 2.0" privacy watergate, it's a foregone conclusion that people BELIEVE the socializing lies that define our politics, if not our very souls.
They are users, nothing more. (Score:3, Insightful)
FTA: "Many of them don't even know how to google properly."
"Generation @" would be watching teevee or listening to the radio if they didn't have a computer. They go where their friends go, use what their friends use. They are nothing more than cattle, going along with the herd.
First, this is talking about Germany (Score:5, Insightful)
And not the whole world or America.
I'm a native of both and the article rings somewhat true of the people I know. But to be blunt about it, I think there is more to do in Germany, especially in this age range. More clubs, more affordable entertainment options, more and cheaper excercise options. More mass transit too, to get there.
I grew up as a latchkey kid in suburban borderline rural America and summered there. When I was 10-15, I was bored out of my mind most days and would have loved something like the internet. I was just too far from anything entertaining, including other kid's houses. It all comes down to having a car culture, imo.
One example, I find pools very expensive in America. Even my YMCA isn't cheap and is like 7 miles away. In Germany, a schwimmbad, hallenbad, etc are somewhat ubiquitous and cheap (5 euros entrance). The outdoor baths are particularly nice, having several pools, one usually Olympic size. None of this means anything if you can't get to it, but again, Germany has massive transit especially rail, and bus, and it doesn't take hours to get anywhere like the bus systems I know from Seattle or Philadelphia. Also, there are sidewalks and bikepaths everywhere, on the side of the road. Here, I had 3 friends that got hit over the years because it's mostly patchwork, if it exists at all.
There can be other factors and I'm sure urban kids have a different experience.
Yeah (Score:4, Insightful)
Wrong conclusion (Score:5, Insightful)
A glimpse of the blindingly obvious... (Score:5, Insightful)
First adopters are always the biggest geeks. The internet, however, is less about its applications today than it is about content. When I started college, the World Wide Web was just emerging, and one had to have some technical aptitudes to know what to do with a PPP dialer, Eudora or, even more primitive, PINE mail, Gopher, Telnet, etc. The first major graphical browser, NCSA Mosaic, had just come out. But the net is so ubiquitous and content driven that users aren't talking about the net in terms of its technology... they're talking about it in terms of content: movies, music, images, news, friends, games, etc.
A technology becomes most useful is when the tech itself is at its most transparent, and the user is directly interfacing with their content with no tremendous awareness of the underlying layers (e.g. OSI model)... and that is precisely how it ought to be, be it for casual or business usage.
Re:evidence? (Score:5, Insightful)
And what's your evidence? Of course, we can probably only offer up our own anecdotes, so I'll offer mine up too.
CBC Radio was talking about this earlier in the day. Young people seem to be viewing computers and the internet as tools they wield for doing whatever it is they want to do, be it contacting friends, maintaining social networks, communicating with other services, doing homework, etc. Many of them don't have the same curiousity or interest that many of us (the /. and other techy crowds) have towards these tools. A guest on the show lamented this, saying that we've lost the ability to "tinker" with our tools (*cough*), and that tinkering is an essential life skill.
I don't really agree with that guest. Many of us use tools to accomplish our goals without trying to tinker with them. I drive a car regularly and have no interest in knowing the ins and outs of its mechanics. Similarly with vacuum cleaners, washers and dryers, mechanical pencils, radios, and many other tools you may come across in your daily life. If it works, and helps me do what I want to do, that's all I care about. It's the same attitude that this younger generation (many of those in my university specifically) takes towards computers and the internet.
I think that is the real measure of how integrated something is in our lives. We don't really have to think twice about the tools we use in order to live our lives on a daily basis. They're just there, and we can use them when we need them, and we don't have to know everything about them.
But that doesn't mean that they're stupid. They know "the internet" is a sort of virtual space where services reside. Whatever hand-waving or magic or technological means are involved to deliver those services to them do not matter to them, so long as it works. And that's a perfectly fine attitude to take, imho. We all take that attitude to at least some degree towards at least some of the tools we use on a daily basis. This just boils down to people having different interests in different things. But to try to insinuate that young people are stupid (and unable to differentiate between the internet and Facebook, for example) just because they take that sort of attitude towards something that you or I are interested in is just bigotry. The inner workings of "the internet" are as foreign to them as the techniques and history of knife forging are to me. That's all there is to it.
Re:They are users, nothing more. (Score:5, Insightful)
And they will be used.
~
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to disagree. That might have been true for the 'AOL' generation, because everything was presented in a nice cosmetic package. The newest generation most certainly does not exist in the 'Facebook Bubble'. They are in blogs, in chat rooms, porn sites, fan sites, AmericanIdol.com, etc.
Although the old social bubbles might have served as the 'internet' in it's infancy, there is no way that would or could happen now. Although they may not 'go online' in this day and age, they most certainly wouldn't be satisfied by only a single service. They may not know the technical details but they know where to go to find things that interest them. The internet is an endless supply of 'apps' to borrow the iTunes phrase. There will always be new, endless curiosities to be seen, heard, and experienced, be that for 5 minutes, or 5 years, and no single 'site' can provide all of that.
So they are like the TV generation (Score:2, Insightful)
They look at the internet as just another appliance.
Still it does seem their lives revolve around the net, with webcam chatting, youtube creations, live chats, and texting. Just like I always have my TV or Radio turned on, even it's just for noise. It's ever-present.
Psh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Or that the telephone generation of the 50s didn't spend long hours thinking about the automation of connections.
Re:Wrong conclusion (Score:5, Insightful)
You're also part of a self-selected group which is not only more skilled at technology, but which has a higher degree of interest in it in general. You're basically skewed data.
I'm 26. We got our first dial-up internet connection when I was in 6th grade. I was tracked 'gifted and talented', and so got to do cooler science and math projects, and having the internet, even on 28.8k dial-up, was a major boost for me. (later I got 33.6 and 56k that only really ran at about 49-50k; broadband wasn't available in my area until my sophomore year of college, and then it didn't matter for me most of the time anyway). I was introduced to FreeBSD by the guys who ran my ISP, and then later to Linux which I've never really learned to like as much. I got to watch one day when the telco guys came to add a an additional T3 at the demarc, which was a big deal for scalability because they then added in a bunch more modem banks since they could handle the capacity.
I mention that because my "generation" grew up hearing carrier tones and having to do more things manually, with slower bandwidth. The "modern internet" by-and-large works so much more easily and at higher rates, that it doesn't take so much effort to get things done. Thus, most people never have to think about it.
Hell, I've talked to professional computer people in their earlier 20s, say 20-22, who think that 'kermit' is just a Muppet. That's truly sad.
Re:evidence? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, I either have a distorted view of what "digital native" means or you do.
The US is full of car natives. When you wanna go to the mall to hang out with your friends you don't go saddle the horse.
This younger generation is full of Internet natives. When you wanna talk to your friends you don't reach for the telephone or pull out the quill and ink pot, you jump online.
FFS, what are you people talking about, you're on a god damn Internet forum.
Re:Wrong conclusion (Score:4, Insightful)
Is this study really about 19 year olds? I mean, I'll admit, I didn't RTFA, but I'm 20 and reading the summary gave me the impression that it was about people several years younger - maybe around 13. I mean, I still remember when nobody had the 'net. I was 8 when we first got dial-up. But my 13 year old cousin was 1 then. She certainly doesn't remember a time before the internet was common, and I doubt that she even remembers a time before broadband.
I remember when everybody had their own Geocities (or Tripod or my favorite, Angelfire). And that took some work. Even if it didn't require real coding, it still needed some creativity. Now everyone just plugs stuff into Facebook or Myspace. I remember when email was hotmail or netscape or AOL or Adelphia or Excite or Earthlink or whatever other company. Now 90% of the email accounts I deal with are gmail. The rest are ***.edu, and occasionally an ISP, but even that is pretty much only older people who have had it since before gmail existed.
I remember constantly switching search engines to whatever was giving the best results this year (or even month). Switching web hosts to whoever offered the best features at this moment. Switching email to whoever offered the most space. Switching IM clients, switching homepages, switching social networks...
I feel like, even though we may have been using the 'net for most of our lives and have some difficulty remembering the time before it, it was still something new. It was still something to be discovered. And it still took some work. For those who are even just a few years younger, they discovered it when it was not as interactive. There's less competition. People are more likely to just stick to the handful of sites their friends use, and leave the other 99.99% of the web unexplored.
Re:evidence? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll say the same thing. I grant that its anecdotal and thus does not apply to the whole group. But I live next door to two teen girls, and that pretty much hits the nail on the head. They don't look at the net like we do. They're not in to hacking. They don't care how elegant (or crufty) something may be. "Cool" has nothing to do with it. They just want to keep contact with their friends, and they want it to work.
Is it really any suprise? (Score:5, Insightful)
The neophillia is experienced by the generation that bridge the period between when you had to walk to get water, and the period when you didn't, when you lit a candle and when you flicked a switch.
I understand the importance of a global digital network because I remember in my childhood there wasn't one, in my teenage years it was developing, and now I have a career in it. I've bridged the period of and no new generation will experience the same thing.
What changes will my children face.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh absolutely positively correct
I'm in the late 20s/early 30s bracket, the gen who grew up having to fiddle with DOS just to get games to run.
All the techs @ work (I'm not counting desktop and helpdesk lol, poor sods) had this ingrained in their upbringing.
The kids coming in who had click and install gaming have noticeably poorer troubleshooting skills, and in particular shy away from command line and text files.
Still there will always be 'natural' geeks and techies, and most people won't care.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
I drive a car regularly and have no interest in knowing the ins and outs of its mechanics.
Not trying to troll, but that line really struck me. Do you by any chance happen to drive a Toyota? Your comment definitely makes you come across as the "A car is no different than a toaster, so buy the cheapest one that won't break and who cares what it looks like or what features it has" type.
Ever wonder that maybe the reason there are so many crappy drivers out there is because they don't care to know anything about the car and expect it to be a magic box that "just works"?
Re:Err, what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because someone isn't interested in the same things that you are doesn't mean that they're not curious. Maybe they're interested in understanding people, maybe they're interested in how to run a business, maybe they just want to know everything about training dogs. Civilization takes all kinds of people, and fortunately different people seems to be attracted to different things.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because the article supports the opposite.
If you were responding to the parent, I didn't really get that he was all that far off from the article. It seems to suggest that the generation growing up with the internet treats it like my generation treated the telephone. Just a part of everyday life that's always been there and they're just not all that fascinated by it. It's a tool, nothing more.
That may not be intuitive, but it's not surprising either.
There's an explanation for this (Score:2, Insightful)
They may have grown up with internet existing.... but their parents won't let them touch the computer. Let alone use it as a toy.
On average, they know just enough about the net to know it's dangerous for kids.
Sorry.. the 'net' generation is something that will start 20 years from now, not anytime soon.
Re:evidence? (Score:2, Insightful)
Facebook users: 0.5 billion
Email users: 1.5 billion
Mobile phone users: 4.5 billion
Facebook has a long way to go if it is going to become the number one way of communicating.
People may spend more time on Facebook/Youtube/Twitter/etc than they do writing emails, SMS:es and making phone calls, but that's because those sites are more casual.
Re:Err, what? (Score:3, Insightful)
[......] I honestly do not know a single person in meatspace like the folks in the article and somehwat you who have no apparent interest in any technology that we all use, other than having someone else do it so you can use it.
That's probably just the sort of people you know, then. In my experience, the majority of people aren't interested in how stuff works - they just want it to work.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
You won't find anybody cool on Facebook, from any generation.
You won't find anyone cool anywhere - because "cool" is a delusion. Everyone's cool or not cool to someone.
techies will always be in the minority (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:5, Insightful)
Seconded, both of you.
And it's only getting "worse" - continuing your gaming reference, many kids just coming in now don't even "click and install." They "insert disc and put on headset."
Where is the answer? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ya, but WHAT? In the fine article the kid outlined said he was really into basketball, and that was it. whoopedy zing, that's it??? for real? So I repeat, what do they DO? Just entertainments, media consumption, play sports? Anything serious? Just saying that "they don't do what you like to do" isn't answering the question, it is just further dodging it.
And really, to repeat, I am not trying to "get off my lawn" dump on anyone or any generation, it is just fascinating in an odd way to me to think there are humans out there who have no interest at all in how things around them work, that using actual tools is just never even considered, that that is for someone else, this vague someone else to do.
I am *seriously* reminded of that somewhat famous heinlein quote about specialization and insects. And what makes it worse, is that even the specialization is apparently being ignored now, appears they want to "do" anything else but work/build/create/explore. Just some sort of existence with no real purpose, no drive or something, anyone but them needs to "do that" so they can...what?? Just live, contribute nothing back, expect to go their entire lives like that??
I don't know, that's why I am asking. And that is what I was wondering, I just can't believe it, so I want to know what really takes the place of being a tool using tinkering human today, especially in this demographic in the article.
I have to disagree with that (Score:4, Insightful)
I dunno. It seems to me that in the grand scheme of things Kermit the Frog is far more influential and important than the protocol which was named after him
Re:evidence? (Score:5, Insightful)
I drive a Honda, but that might be besides the point.
You bring up a fantastic point. There are different features in different cars. Some of them have more or less horsepower, some of them have more or less torque at certain RPM bands, whatever. I don't know much about cars, like I said. But none of that really matters to me. What does matter to me is my experience with the car. When I drive my car, I have certain interactions with it that occur on a regular basis. Feeling the comfort of the seat, the feel and weight of the steering wheel, the sound of the engine, the appearance, etc. Then there are things that don't happen, like accelerator recalls, frequent breakdowns, etc. Those are the things that I'm interested in w.r.t. cars. As long as my car performs as intended and I have a good experience driving it, that's all that matters to me. All the numbers don't matter. I don't need to care whether or not it has more or less horsepower than another model, or whether it has a v4 or v6 engine, or whatever, as long as it performs as expected under the normal range of driving conditions.
This is exactly the same as how many people view computers. They don't need to know whether you have a Core i5 750 or a Phenom II x6 1055T. Those words and numbers mean nothing to them. As long as the computer performs as expected under normal conditions and they have a good experience with it, that's all that matters. This is why Apple computers sell. People don't care about the specs, they don't need to care about the specs. Sure, you pay a price premium for Apple. But what do you get in return? A really easy to use OS that requires little if any configuration. A good enough tech support that will help you fix your problem (with whatever voodoo magic, for all they care) and that is easily reachable and has a human face. You or I may debate the merits of getting a Phenom II x6 or a Core i5, or whether to stick with an AM2+ motherboard or upgrade to AM3, depending on whatever purposes we have. But most people just want a machine for general use purposes, and none of those specs make a huge difference. As long as you're buying current gen hardware (or even hardware from one or two gens previous), it's good enough for most people.
The take-home is that for many of our tools, it doesn't matter how exactly it works, as long as it works and we have a good experience using those tools. You might be interested in those tools, and others might not be.
As for the crappy drivers, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get at. There's almost no expectation that you need to know how a car works in order to get a driver's license in most places that I know of. You need to have basic knowledge of how to drive a car, basic driving techniques, the rules of the road, etc. If you think that the problem lies in people not knowing how cars work, then you might want to take that up with your local politicians. It seems to me, however, that crappy drivers are crappy drivers not because they don't know the mechanics of their car, but because they don't give a shit about the rules of the road and have no common courtesy.
Re:evidence? (Score:1, Insightful)
Their attitude is no different than some teen girls (or guys) from 20 or 30 years ago. There are just more people using computers now so it's more noticeable.
Re:They are users, nothing more. (Score:1, Insightful)
They are nothing more than cattle, going along with the herd.
I hear that bleat a lot, out of your crowd.
Re:Where is the answer? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:evidence? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do we all need to get off your lawn? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, you are 26 and already being crotchety? I'm 30 and I think you are exhibiting "Cranky old person syndrome" in a bad way.
You are bitching because people don't know about some old, somewhat obscure, modem protocol? What the fuck? Why would they? Hell even many people who used modems didn't know about it because they didn't use it with the systems they were on (XMODEM and ZMODEM were way more popular in my experience).
As a counterpoint, do you know all about the telegraph, how it came to be, the development, the refinements, the way it changed the world? Can you tell me about the different kinds of keys and what they are good at? What can you tell me about the life of the man who invented it? Can you even tell me his name (without looking it up)?
There are actually questions I CAN answer... Because I did extensive academic research on Morse. It is an extremely important part of our communications history and shaped many other developments (for example it was the very start of the move to electronic funds, with the ability to 'wire' money). However I do not expect random people to know about it. There is no reason to. It is now a historical relic, Morse Code practiced by very few people any more and no longer required even for amateur radio licenses. It is an important part of our history, but not something I expect everyone to learn about.
That is just one example, I could pick many more. Don't get grumpy because the things that were new to you are old to others. That's called progress and it is a wonderful thing.
Now get off my lawn. :D
No 15 year old discusses this stuff accurately (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd argue that computers in pre-GUI times had a much lower learning curve to get to the point of programming. You mucked about in BASIC to change a program to do what you wanted it to do.
Now to muck about with a quick flash game, you have to decompile it, edit it in miles of Actionscript and timeline coding, and recompile it. Further, it is helpful if you understand http, xml, javascript, and basic networking to get anything done.
Writing a game in BASIC was easy. Writing a modern game in XNA takes C#, 3D experience, miles of tutorials, etc.
Say what you will about GUI's making things "easier" so that kids don't have to learn. The complexity of modern computing has thrown a huge wall up between the end user and real programming. I bet if you took any of the MIT genius kids from the late 70's and threw them in front of a modern computer, they'd be baffled too.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Premise determines solution (Score:1, Insightful)
What the fuck is he talking about? "Socializing lies"? Which socializing lies? Sounds like a load of "angsty teen" bollocks to me.
We had this very discussion at work once... (Score:3, Insightful)
The "younger" groups of people would ask for Macs on their workstations, but only for various things like surfing the Internet (we programmed on the PC). They would buy phones like Apple that had no real programing ability. They would use software that more or less was pre-set and required little in the way of knowledge on how it worked and minimal setup and customization time.
The "older" folks always used devices they could "take apart". Programmable phones, PCs, etc. They would request software that required a higher level of learning and/or time to setup and customize.
I have always believed this was one of the keys to success for companies like Facebook, Twitter, and Apple. They are simple and just function without a lot of fuss or glitter. Simply put, younger people tend to view the technology today like any other technology that has been around for a while. I am sure that the first time people got electricity run to their homes they would spend endless hours turning lights on and off and inviting friends over to see the new wonders. Now we just get pissed when a lightbulb blows out and expect it to work when we need it.
I could be wrong on all this, but just something I observed over my programming career. Oh, and in 25 years of programming on the PC I still do not know any personal friends who actually "program" on an Apple computer or write apps for it. But I do have several friends who own one.
Re:techies will always be in the minority (Score:2, Insightful)
Not even voting is not a valid criticism, though. Voting lends legitimacy to the elaborate hoax of pretenting we have a choice, and that this choice matters, in a false bipartisan paradigm.
But most of them don't even know/think that, so they can't use it as justification.
Yet they don't even vote.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:evidence? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ashamed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:evidence? (Score:5, Insightful)
Repeat after me: Email is NOT a file transfer protocol.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Those who grew up with computers in pre-GUI times had a rather steep curve but as a consequence became much more proficient"
Yes, at using a CLI. The command line is just as much of an abstraction as a GUI is, just harder to learn.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
Any free Unices that were capable of running on early PCs would have been about as stable as DOS was in those days (there was no processor support for different privilege levels or isolated address spaces). By the time the 386 came along, MS was well-entrenched.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why go to Facebook, and use a tortured "message" system, which THEN sends an alert email to the receiver, as well as the actual message arriving on their Facebook account!?!
It's nice for shorter messages with people you don't talk to as often and you're not sure if they've changed email addresses.
Facebook makes a lot more sense if you use it as a networking tool instead of a communications service.
Re:evidence? (Score:2, Insightful)
I propose the opposite. I propose you do not need to know anything about what happens under the hood to be a good driver. And by good driver, I mean someone who is safe, fully compliant with all applicable laws and regulations and who can navigate around other objects (which is complying with the laws of physics). A good driver does need to know the laws of physics, the rules of the road, and which knobs, buttons, dials and levers do what within the cockpit of their car.
I have a mechanic; I pay him to take care of everything (yes, everything) under the hood. I am a man, and comfortable in my manhood, even without changing my own oil, cleaning the stuck windshield squirter nozzle, or fixing the switch that keeps my dome light on during cold or rainy weather (I pull out the bulb instead).
The race car driver example is irrelevant; your local freeways and city streets are not supposed to be competitions of speed and dexterity but venues for transportation; you are graded on courtesy, not pole position. And if everyone will keep their eyes on the road and off their cell phones/iWhatnots, use their turn signals, and observe appropriate distance from the vehicle in front of them, I would call them all good drivers.
Re:Wrong conclusion (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes, kermit is just a Muppet and Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello and Raphael are just turtles.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
The tech learning curve is important as well. Those who grew up with computers in pre-GUI times had a rather steep curve but as a consequence became much more proficient.
Uhh... that's a polite way of saying they invested lots of mental effort into something that depreciated faster than a new car. What were they actually proficient at? Besides "computers" AKA "twisting a machine's proverbial arm to do what you need it to."
There are diminishing returns in training humans, and we can't change that. We can make computers more efficient though.
Re:Wrong conclusion (Score:2, Insightful)
Hell, I've talked to professional computer people in their earlier 20s, say 20-22, who think that 'kermit' is just a Muppet. That's truly sad.
I'm in my early 30's and I frankly don't see the point of knowing about a protocol that was outdated when I started going to highschool.
Then again, I suggest you stop driving cars until you have memorized every breed of horse and what tasks they are most suitable for.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:5, Insightful)
Easier to use, Harder to make.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
I dont' agree with you, I've seen enough older tech guys who stopped at learning dir,cd and nothing else but claim to be cli users. I'm in my mid 20s and only have one person at work who can beat me at cli-ness, a 43 year old hacker who worked at Bell labs in the late 80s.
At one point, system admins might have been more aware of whats going on beneath the shell, like setsid(), process groups, etc. Now if someone knows BASH, they are CLI experts.
I think people are afraid of all their 'overhead' knowledge being made obsolete by more efficient technology. Rarely ever is the latest revolution in computer technology a perfect replacement for the old way. If the old ways don't keep evolving, we get revolutions. Then everyone gets all defensive about their little treasure trove of old knowledge which they claim was fine as it was, because that's how they learned it.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd argue that computers in pre-GUI times had a much lower learning curve to get to the point of programming.
And the bar for what was considered "professional" programming was much lower. I remember programming my C64, and I could do the same kind of blocky sprites and beep-beep music that almost kinda looked like a game someone would sell. It was at least "in range", so to speak. Whereas today most games are a huge team effort with high quality art, music etc., neither a one man garage developer nor one kid in front of a computer.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:2, Insightful)
Precisely. Most adults can drive a care, but few are petrolheads. Most people wans something that starts when you turn the key. They know how to, and mildly resent having to, fill it with petrol, check the tires, and perform sundry other routines to keep it roadworthy (though some don't bother to their cost).
Contrast that with Kipling, an early car enthusiast writing humorous stories about 1910. First, he employed a full-time driver/mechanic (though he drove himself). For a 200 mile journey he set out with four spare tires, and felt only mildly unlucky when he got his fifth puncture, On the other hand, when, for story purposes, the car had to be driven across field, they took off the shiny bodywork and replaced it with a cart body for the jape. Lighting was calcium carbide (releases acetylene whn water dripped onto it) which entailed searches across country for ponds when darkness fell.
All of this is what the command-line geeks (such as me) were used to do. When cars got easier to use, it changed life massively. But not by making people more interested in cars. By making people expect to have cars to get to distant jobs, visit distant relatives, shop far from home, take dates to quiet places. The social changes brought by the car are huge, and the car industry is huge, But most people care little about what goes on below the metalwork. Much effort has been made to make all cars work the same: same pedals, same wheel, same fuel, indicators etc in one of only two or three places, standard mounts for accessories. When someone visits you, you don't ask what make of car they have so you can prepare the right kind of parking place. You may comment on the status expressed by the price/age of their car, but you are unlikely to comment on its technical specs.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:4, Insightful)
The internet is far more in depth than that. The reality is the internet is a complex interactive digital environment a font of self expression, the get anything significant out or it you have to put a lot into it. Research, understanding and expression, as well as tangents like administration and security, do not work well with the mobile phone texting generation who love simple dumb fad apps, the ringtone generation.
The ringtone generation because they are too lazy, indifferent, unmotivated to create a 10 second ringtone they will buy it and swap it and replace it with the next fad. The excludes of course the next generation of computer geeks/nerds basically the same as the last generation just with a bias to gui use. The mass market just product shifted, they didn't style shift, so passive idiot box viewing has shifted to passive internet use, with just a very slight creativity burst in social media. Really just cutting and pasting, making and breaking friends, picking on enemies, mass media driven peer pressure content consumption, gossip and, simple games, kinda reminds you of a primary school playground (more than just kinda).
There is a definite intellectual stratification of the internet, not age based at all (except pre teens). Computer nerds/geeks were, are and will be the creators of the internet, from teens to geriatrics, those that create the coral reefs where the other fish just follow the fad and shoal, they still of course represent by far the bulk in numbers but they are just mass consumers not creators (hence lack of ability).
Re:evidence? (Score:1, Insightful)
You're assuming he's doing nothing when he could be learning how to maintain his car. What if he's a naturally talented developer - it would be a better use of his time learning more about programming than learning how to service his engine, and the financial returns he'd gain from the additional skills and experience would likely more than make up the difference. Do you think a mechanic writes his own engine testing software routines to save money? If fiscal efficiency is your aim then, unless you work in a particularly low paid sector, I'd say specialisation is always going to reap you greater rewards - learn how to maintain a car then spend ten years working on it to save $2k, or learn how to write web applications and make the $2k in a lazy weekend to pay someone else to do the ten years of maintenance?
Moreover the mechanic is doing his actual job, he'll have insurance and the right training and equipment to make sure he doesn't miss anything vital or, if he does and you suffer loss, you'll be covered. I'm not sure I'd trust my ability as an enthusiastic amateur when we're talking about a metal box travelling at 70MPH containing me and my family, and in the same way the mechanic might build an amateur website in dreamweaver, but if he ever wanted a full e-commerce solution with online payment processing linked to a stock database and delivery and invoicing system I'd hope he would go to a proper developer.
On the other hand, if you're talking about enjoyment rather than money, I would agree. For me, doing something I enjoy in my spare time is worth more than saving a few pennies, and I know for some people that means stripping and rebuilding engines, but for a lot of people it definitely doesn't.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
Repeat after me: There is no file transfer protocol between internet users.
The internet is capable of high performance, yet we don't have a common, stable mean of transferring large (100MB) files client-to-client. [No, torrent is not one.]
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:2, Insightful)
The ringtone generation because they are too lazy, indifferent, unmotivated to create a 10 second ringtone they will buy it and swap it and replace it with the next fad.
I'd be curious to see if these people are really from a specific "generation". Chances are that people spending money on ringtones (and now, people spending money on trivial "fart" apps etc) may well be older people too. These people have phones too.
The excludes of course the next generation of computer geeks/nerds basically the same as the last generation just with a bias to gui use.
We had GUI use the last generation - it was just those who were using DOS who didn't :)
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:2, Insightful)
There are interpreted languages out there, including ones aimed at beginners (including BASICs, like Blitz). The higher barrier is that it doesn't come installed as standard.
Writing a game in BASIC was easy. Writing a modern game in XNA takes C#, 3D experience, miles of tutorials, etc.
No, you're confusing the learning curve to knock up something very simple (e.g., 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" versus setting up all the compilers etc), with writing a full game. I'd argue that BASIC doesn't make this at all easy, especially the variants that existed on the 8 bits.
There's a wealth of resources to make things easier today. Even though OOP can be difficult, at the least you've got structures, which most BASICs didn't even have, leaving you to use only arrays. There wasn't dynamic memory allocation, so you were left with fixed length arrays. Most BASICs had nothing more than an awkward "gosub" for writing functions.
You have toolkits today to easily knock up GUIs, graphics and so on, rather than having to reinvent the wheel every time.
And yes, you have those tutorials - the Internet provides a wealth of information, which I didn't have access to in the 80s.
The only reason game programming is higher is because the standards are higher (e.g., writing 3D games - and not getting away with wireframe, either). But the tools or languages have not made things harder.
Go on, try firing up BASIC in a Spectrum or C64 emulator and write a game, and compare it to your modern language of choice.
Re:Tech is still Tech, yucko! (Score:3, Insightful)
Citation please.
I suspect that their ability to learn a new GUIi is just as easy if not easier than CLI people learning a new CL syntax. Stick a command line person at a prompt that isn't one they are familiar with and they're going to be even more lost than the gui people unless it is a related syntax. Unless you know to type "ls" instead of "dir", I suspect there is much less a chance of a command line person coming up with an unknown command than a gui person figuring out the directory structure by clicking on things randomly (given people of equal ability).