Engineers Propose Lily Pad-Like Floating Cities 309
Zothecula writes "The idea of going offshore to satisfy our renewable energy needs isn't new, but the grand vision of Japan's Shimizu Corporation goes way beyond harnessing green energy at sea for use in cities on Terra firma — it takes the whole city along for the ride. The company, along with the Super Collaborative Graduate School and Nomura Securities, is researching the technical issues involved in constructing its Green Float concept — a self-sufficient, carbon-negative floating city that would reside in the Equatorial Pacific Ocean."
Tsunamis (Score:2)
I wonder how the engineers for the Green Float concept solved (if, indeed they did) how such a lily-pad city concept would be able to withstand tsunamis, which a floating city in the middle of the Pacific Ocean would be especially vulnerable. Unlike tsunamis on land, a lily-pad city, I'd think, would add the additional complication that the city could sink or fragment or capsize, trapping or killing a lot of people.
Also, with regards to the "carbon-negative" claim - do they mean carbon negative with regards
Re:Tsunamis (Score:5, Informative)
Tsunamis are barely detectable in the open ocean. Their height builds up as they approach land.
Re:Tsunamis (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd be more interested how they intend to deal with extremists flying an A380 into the 1km high tower, and what the impact of said tower collapsing onto the lily pad would be.
Re:Tsunamis (Score:4, Insightful)
I 'm willing to take that chance; it really is so improbable that its the least of my worries.
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The impact of the main tower collapsing is that everyone in the tower and the surrounding area are dead. A lot like a skyscrapper on land.
For protection, they'll probably use the same countermeasure that we use today: Surface to Air Missiles. Or did you think this particular security hole was still open?
Re:Tsunamis (Score:4, Informative)
Technically, Tsunamis only rise to their maximum height as they get closer to land. Out at sea, they're mostly beneath the surface. It takes a decrease in depth to force them up into the walls of water we associate them with.
Bearing that in mind, and further considering that we can and do have ships at sea when Tsunamis happen, I assume the problem is manageable, and was probably considered for the Green Float design sometime prior to this point.
Slightly off topic, but did anyone else notice in the overhead pics that these things look fractal derived?
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And even at the landing site, tsunamis are not typically walls of water, too.
Freak waves [wikipedia.org] otoh...
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Yeah, blame Hollywood physics trumping actual physics yet again.
Slightly off topic, but did anyone else notice in the overhead pics that these things look fractal derived?
Oh, nothing's ever off topic on slashdot! Yes! I was immediately excited that the structure resembled part of my master's thesis!
http://hairball.mine.nu/~rwa2/school/ense799/arcologysim_20070521/mainthesis-node35.html#2336 [hairball.mine.nu]
Tsunamis are only dangerous in shallow water (Score:4, Interesting)
The displacement of large water which causes the tsunami would not affect deep-water installations... now hurricanes and typhoons would be disastrous.
Anecdotally, I was in Thailand during the Indian Ocean Tsunami. I spoke to folks who had been flooded, who swam away from floating ATM machines and such, and also a boat captain who told me that one mile out, they felt the tsunami... it was like a small sudden wave/bump and passed in a few seconds.
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Where do you think they get their power from? Near death experiences provide the greatest source of power for the pad.
When this pad's a rocking that's when you can use your T.V..
I'm just curious how they will power the thing if you get 10 days of clouds in a row. Or if the salt forms on the solar panels.
Drydock? How do they repair where it interlinks.
I would imagine if you have to separate the center node it'd fall over. How would they fix it so that in 10 years it doesn't fall apart from wear and tear?
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I RTFA, they plan to use space based solar beamed down with microwaves... It really is ridiculously out there.
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Well, I think the orbital solar approach is likely to become practical before floating cities do. Since TFA makes it clear this is more pie-in-the-sky futurism than actual practical planning, it may stand to reason the designers assume that we'll be using orbital solar regularly by the time these become practical (if ever).
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The islands would be located at the equator as it isn’t prone to typhoons and the climate is stable. However, in the event of large waves, strong elastic membranes would be attached to the lagoons around the outer circumference of the cells, with the shallows above the membranes standing 10m (32.8 ft) above sea level. The water pressure difference between the lagoons and the ocean would limit the movement of the membranes and buffer the force of the open sea waves. Additionally, 20-30m (66-98 ft) high seawalls would be constructed to handle a worst-case scenario.
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It sounds like a crap idea buried under a pile of justifications.
Why drag the city along when land is cheap? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why drag the city along when land is cheap? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the point is that this idea comes from Japan, where land is not cheap.
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Plus, they really like seafood. This city could follow the fish.
Until they run out of fish. Then they would have nowhere to go.
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Plus, they really like seafood. This city could follow the fish.
Until they run out of fish. Then they would have nowhere to go.
Then hurry! There's not much time left. [biology.dal.ca]
SG: Atlantis (Score:2, Funny)
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Puddle jumpers? Are those like Gate ships?
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Japanese, Pacific, islands? (Score:2)
Well, I guess it might work out better if they want to build new ones...
(though realistically, probably pipe dreams anyway (nothing particularly new?), again / better to use the tech in most efficient way and place - an existing land, for example)
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70% of this planet is covered in water that isn't being used for anything in particular; that is a tremendous waste.
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It's being used very actively (in fact, the way we use fisheries might be overusing it), and is an integral part of the planetary systems (necessarily destabilized even more, if you really think about it in terms of percentages of surface)
But it was about something else, how building there might be not the most efficient way to use resources and technology. Even if operation is "carbon negative" (and why only mention carbon?), I suppose the construction won't be.
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You might want to rethink that "isn't being used for anything" bit. A hell of a lot of photosynthesis goes on in the topmost layer of the world's oceans. Not to mention the hydrological cycle and the oceans role in thermo-regulation. We don't want to halt or significantly alter any of the above.
Now, floating cities will not interfere with those processes, for the same reason building cities on land didn't interfere with land based photosynthesis - the amount of space we need to build something large from
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Yeah, I figure that and some amount of xenophobia is what drives such dreams about building new islands.
There's an easier solution there though...
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Waterworld (Score:3, Insightful)
The energy cost of building this seaborne city would be much greater than whatever savings it might obtain, whether built at sea or shipped there from a land base. How about the energy costs of moving people between this city and anyplace else, from which it would be remote?
Building on land isn't less energy efficient, it's more efficient. There's plenty of land near enough to oceans to take advantage of the ocean energy, without the higher costs of operating everything on the ocean. Any merit to these principles would be better applied to building a city on an island rather than a floating city from scratch.
This project is an obvious waste of time, money and energy. I smell a government grant sucked up by bankers and their grad student patsies.
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Well, it's apparent that that's the case, but there are always things we might not have thought of.
Could it be possible for the city to provide some or all of its energy from wave-motion generators?
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But, if you want to live near water where you can truly enjoy year around solar power, air and water temperature, low pollution, and be safe. Seams like the best place is around the Equator for the first 3. Spin a globe looking near the equator for land, ruling out relatively unstable places like Kenya, the Congo, Columbia, any unsafe for white people areas in Singapore (ok maybe that is just for me). Also no land locked places, or protected indigenous population like new Guiana, and already over populat
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There's thousands of islands near the Equator, especially in the Pacific and Indian oceans, especially if "near" includes places as far as Singapore. I doubt anyone showing up with what it takes to build a city would be in any kind of danger on any of these islands. Especially once they'd built the city.
Until a typhoon, tsunami or drought come through. In the longer term, sealevel rise and larger storms are pretty serious.
Building an energy platform at sea as part of a global energy transmission infrastruct
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Obligatory futurama? (Score:2)
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I live in Atlanta. I don't want to turn into a mermaid.
Woah! A female on /. ?! I'm baffled and stunned. I'm sure the future mermen of /. would be happy to keep you company in your new mermaid state.
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Would they move .... (Score:2)
Seasteading (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.seasteading.org/ [seasteading.org]
Idea's been around for a while. The main issue is that it takes some major bucks to get a project like this off the ground so it'll likely remain among the list of intriguing ideas nobody's been able to finance like intercontinental bridges, beanstalks, arcologies, and such.
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Then again, it is the Japanese proposing these designs, they're pretty good about stuff like that.
Typo in headline (Score:5, Interesting)
it should read "Artists Propose Lily Pad-Like Floating Cities"
The fractal growth concept is kind of cool though.
Buckminster Fuller. Forty years ago. (Score:5, Informative)
Septic (Score:2)
One word: Septic
The ocean is not your toilet.
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Plants need nitrogen.
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Not necessarily, in less dense population you can use the septic field technology. I realize this might be a hard concept for a lot of people to swallow, but whats comfortable for the individual might not be best for the global society.
They may have to move.
And I don't mean to the ocean, I mean to less dense parts of our planet, spread it out a bit. They might have to make their living off the land, have to forgo certain luxuries, but its better than a constant stream of feces entering into our mos
Mag? Really. (Score:2)
Magnesium and salt water is about as bad as it gets for corrosion problems.
That thing would be decomposing faster than they could build it.
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farpoint (Score:2)
anyone else think that looks like Farpoint?
Or am I so bored by this meeting that I am making nutty observations?
Territorial Disputes? (Score:2)
Get back to me when it's actually built (Score:2)
The Raft (Score:2)
Or they could just lash a bunch of ships to a super carrier and let it float nearly aimlessly around the Pacific Ocean, picking up and dropping off refugees every time it stops.
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It doesn't stop, just drifts near continents.
Environmental aspect (Score:2)
The green float would "use a number of technologies to make a carbon negative system" and "would also produce zero waste by recycling resources and converting waste into energy". However none of their proposed ideas to accomplish these tasks would be any easier to do on a green float as opposed to on dry land. If it's so easy to build a carbon negative city with zero waste, prove it first on dry land...it will surely be more difficult to do on one of these contraptions where you have so many other technol
Engineers why stop there? (Score:2)
If your going to propose something impractical why not go big like a Dyson Sphere!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere [wikipedia.org]
Tower in the park (Score:2)
The majority of the inhabitants would live in 1km high “City in the Sky” towers located at the center of the circular cells
The idea of a futuristic city comprising of isolated skyscrapers in vast expanses of open parkland was a fashionable one for futurists in the 50s and 60s, but it's contrary to everything we know about how humans like to live. We like our streets at ground level, our cafes to sit outside, and so on. It's nice to be able to walk to places rather than being forced to drive everywhere because nothing is built anywhere near anything else. If you have to get from one of these towers to another then you have a
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Oh, I don't know... I think buildings of that scale were just too difficult to plan and construct for.
Yes, isolated skyscrapers are pretty wonky, more for type-A business dorks that want to be "above" everyone else. I think the more modernized, livable version consists of buildings that are still rather high, but have linked green roof parks, and central atriums. Some examples:
http://blog.urbangreencouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/eco-building415.jpg [urbangreencouncil.org]
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LyxZsaQuZO8/SjetV6OrEUI/ [blogspot.com]
Atlantis? (Score:2)
In other words, they want to build the fabled city of Atlantis.
Except without
- the ability to safely sink below the ocean and rise up again at will. For example, to submerge beneath passing tropical storms.
- the ability to travel the seven seas to travel and explore [ok, my idea, not part of the fable, unless you consider below]
- the ability to take off and fly between star systems and/or galaxies [the Stargate variety]
Of course, should tragedy strike and it really does sink (assuming its not designed to d
Clean up trash patch (Score:3, Insightful)
How about figuring out a way to gather up the trash in the pacific and to aggregate it into a floating island?
Re:The technical issues (Score:4, Informative)
Hey...it only rarely happens, and if it wasn't for the man made disaster that was our levy system, Katrina wouldn't have hurt us much at all.
99% of the time...life is GREAT down here. The attitude, friendly people, interesting culture, banana republic government (is entertainment for us locals)...and the fact that we understand the concept of the "to go cup" at bars, makes it all worthwhile.
Ok, so a storm comes from time to time, really it is usually just an excuse to pack and take an impromptu 4-day vacation to visit friends relative, or maybe even take the party to Beale St. in Memphis.
There are reasons why people live here...and want to visit here.
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Hey...it only rarely happens...
So do massive oil spills from deep sea drilling. How do you feel about legislation to stop that from happening again, Mr. New Orleans?
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Oil obeys the laws of nature, not the ones passed by congress.
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I'm confused. How do I moderate this comment on a metacomment?
Nevermind. It's you're problem now :)
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I think the root of the problem that caused your moderation would be that you were making a commend on the gulf oil spill on a article about lillypad cities. This is well off topic. As was the New Orleans defense...
Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Insightful)
*shakes head* Whatever... I got plenty more karma to burn stating the truth even when it hurts some delicate snowflake's worldview.
I don't think your original post is that offtopic, but I can say that seeing about 5 posts here with you arguing "this is ontopic, meta this, woe is me!" really isn't on topic of floating cities.
/. isn't about getting nothing but praise for comments, it is about making an interesting discussion.
Mods here are *sometimes* like a box of chocolate. You aren't sure what you will get. Sometimes posts that shoot up to +5 end up at -1, sometimes it is the other way around. I wouldn't worry about the modding that your posts get. If you are posting quality content, the masses will override the few. Besides,
Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Insightful)
and if it wasn't for the man made disaster that was our levy system,
You mean, if it wasn't for the greed and corruption that left the levee system unmaintained and ready to fail. [msn.com]
And of course there's the fact that the levee system was rated for a category 3 hurricane, while Katrina was actually a Category 4 - in other words, exceed the specs, expect failures.
I've visited NO. It's a decent place to visit. Wouldn't really want to live there till they get out of the Poverty-Pimp business though.
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and if it wasn't for the man made disaster that was our levy system
Wrong, if it weren't for the man made disaster of building a city that requires a massive levy system because it's sinking and now several feet below the level of the nearby ocean....
The very existence of NO is just begging for Katrina and many more similar disasters.
Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Informative)
Lots of cities all over the world are like that, it is a solvable problem. We need port cities, they will tend to sink like this.
Re:The technical issues (Score:4, Interesting)
Lots of cities all over the world are like that, it is a solvable problem. We need port cities, they will tend to sink like this.
That's not really true. The number of port cities that have sunk below sea level is quite small, even over the span of thousands of years.
The logical approach is to gradually move the city to higher ground by simply doing NOTHING, rather than putting up a levy system that, over the long run, is going to be unmaintainable.
This does not require any expenditure of money, or a foray into the politics of greed. Simply benign neglect, allowing low lying areas to be used or abandoned as the economics and subsidence dictates will do what is logical. People will move.
Floating cities strike me as another idea that, over the long run, are unmaintainable.
Seriously. The oldest ship we have is around 200 years old, and it serves no purpose other than a historical nostalgia piece.
Imagine an entire city needing a new hull as the passage of time and storms takes their toll. The political pressure to run in and do something dumb is enormous.
By the time that happens, the rich and powerful will have sold off every inch of said floating city to the poor. It will be a floating slum.
If we can't stomach losing a city inch by inch over a hundred years, and therefore get stampeded into building levies, imagine pressure to bail (figuratively and literally) out the floating city with the leaking hull, full of poor people with no money to maintain what they have been saddled with.
Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Insightful)
The very existence of NO is just begging for Katrina and many more similar disasters."
Well, it isn't like we just decided in the past couple of decades we'd like to build and little burg here and move in 'cause it would just be cool to live below sea level.
New Orleans is older than the United States itself man...it is a city [wikipedia.org] that is almost 300 years old man.
And, it is located precisely where it is for a number of reasons, the largest reason being near the mouth of the Mississippi river to the Gulf. NOLA is a very important port city for the US. Pretty much everything from the midwest comes through us to go out to the world. You like seafood? Well, we pretty much provide about 1/3 of the US's seafood from this area. You kinda have to live near the water to do that. You like Oil? Well, at least..do you need it? Well, a great deal of the US's spigots are due to NOLA and our immediate areas, everything from people to run the rigs, to the 'taps' that the tanker ships unload to shore...to the refineries that people here run and work in.
NOLA is a very important city...even if you don't care about the culture that NOLA has given the US, music, food, etc....economically, you should rethink how important you think it is.
And hell...why can't we invest to protect it like the Netherlands does their areas that are below sea level?
Every place in the US has its problems.
Do we abandon CA, because it has earthquakes, fires, and mudslides? Do we abandon the cities in the midwest that flood from the Mississippi river? Do we abandon the panhandle states due to all the tornadoes? Do we abandon NYC because it is a target for terrorists (not to mention, they are WAY overdue for a hurricane situation that makes the one in NOLA look like a puddle jump)?
Quit bitching about it...and come have some fun down here. We're friendly...its funny to watch it wear off on my northeastern friends that come here to visit.
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Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree 100%. In fact, post-Katrina, many of the political shenanigans that flew in the past, have not been put up with. There have been a number of politicians go to prison for bribery and the like. Jim Letten [bestofneworleans.com] has done a world of good to help clean up dirty LA public service people. Sure, we still have problems, but we have come a LONG way since Katrina.
Heck, these days, people are calling Chicago politicians more corrupt and crooked than NOLA ones. Katrina, in many ways was a blessing and a curse. Yes, it was devastating to many who lost everything. But it also helped flush the city of a lot of what was wrong with it...the dead weight, the crime (still bad, but doesn't seem as bad as before), and the corruption. New Orleans is a MUCH nicer place to live now, than before Katrina. New blood is flowing in (many in the 30-35 educated ranks moving here), new businesses are coming in, many of the projects are being replaced with mixed housing..and pretty soon, we hope to have a major bio-medical corridor come in to replace some horribly blighted areas at the end of the Mid-City area which will help revitalize that area, and the areas closer to the French Quarter.
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The state did ask for help eventually, didn't it? The help provided was substandard. You'd think they would have prepared themselves better so that when states did ask for help, it'd be ready to go, but that's not what happened. The military was off in a foreign country busy slaughtering the natives for oil, rather than being prepared for actually dealing with domestic problems.
Aside from that, the Federal government completely failed at preparing the area for disaster beforehand, such as by having bette
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Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Informative)
No no, these guys want to build cities ON the ocean.
New Orleans was build UNDER the ocean.
Crucial difference. :)
Re:The technical issues (Score:4, Insightful)
The Titanic was built to go ON the ocean.
Bob Ballard found it UNDER the ocean.
Lesson:
When it's "ocean" vs. "techno-hubris", bet on "ocean".
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NONE of the things you praise about NOLA requires a city built below sea level.
NONE of them requires restoring areas built below sea level.
Banana republic government = failed levies (Score:3, Informative)
I'm pretty sure as amusing as it is to see "Diaper Dave" Vitter and other oddities in your representation, it's pretty clear that in highly corrupt areas, not only do big-ticket items cost more, but quality of those things is dangerously low. Take a look at those schools in China [wikimedia.org].
This among other reasons [wikimedia.org], is why corruption can be deadly and should be fought tooth and nail.
Re:The technical issues (Score:5, Insightful)
It explained the lack of typhoons, but a lot of TFA doesn't make sense at all.
The Japanese may go for that population density, but it's not for me. The city I live in is 100k people and it must be twenty times that area, and it's too densly populated for my tastes.
Huh???? In a half mile area? WTF?
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Re:The technical issues (Score:4, Funny)
I've got several acres of grass out in my backyard. Tell you what, I'll even throw in an open bar and still only charge half what the cruise costs.
Re:The technical issues (Score:4, Informative)
So living in a real city isn't your bag. That's cool, it keeps the prices down for people who don't mind the density.
10-50k people per 3 sq km isn't that bad, anyway... it's comparable to Hoboken NJ (around 40k in 3.2 sq km), which is pretty dense compared to a lot of urban neighborhoods in the US, but is still quite livable.
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Whoa mate I'm from Australia with 2.9 people per km2 (7.5 per mi2). :p
You can actually see your neighbour? How do you stand those population densities?
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Not all people are as hideous to look at as Australians.
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I grew up in the St Louis area, and it wasn't any more densly populated than here. Sure, there were and are millions of people there, but it's a hell of a lot more acreage.
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According to Wikipedia, the population density of Manhattan is 27,394.3 per square kilometre. Manhattan is three times the population density of Tokyo. From the same source, the density of Hoboken is 11,675.4/km^2, so a little over a tenth of what they are proposing.
So the upper limit that they're proposing is a bit over 50% more dense than Manhattan and the lower limit is a bit less dense than Hoboken. Unlike these places, you won't be able to easily get to some more open land, because you'll be in
Size does matter (Score:2)
For the Japanese a person per square yard is arm's length. Americans would be bumping butts and bellies at that range.
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I'm sorry, but that isn't a city. It's pretty much a large town. I would imagine where you live is also a classic case of urban sprawl. Lots of roads, parking lots, and cars along with problems that comes with them. The sort of thing that we're trying to get away from if you want to conserve energy and resources which is what this is trying to do.
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Oh... wait... New Orleans. Nevermind. The lemmings will pay plenty to drown in the ocean.
Even before Katrina, many of the devastated areas in New Orleans weren't exactly prime real estate. So I don't think it's fair to say that people will "pay plenty" to live in poor conditions. Don't you find it more likely that these proposed cities will quickly turn into conveniently off-shore ghettos?
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Actually they want to put these close to the equator. That area of the sea is pretty much free of cyclonic storms and rogue waves.
Take a look at the tracks of cyclonic storms and you will see that is about the safest place to be.
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Like in sg atlantis, you would have a city that can move as a ship does, and also have a shield against the elements, surely a cloak of invisibility would help against the wraith!
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I was very interested to see that he references Liek Myrabo's laser-powered launch vehicles concept. I actually took a space studies class under him my freshman year. Last I heard of his research, he'd done some simple tests (I think there's a video out there on the internet) shooting a demonstration vehicle (about the size of a bird from what I remember) and propelling it upward. He's moved the laser generator to the ground (it was supposed to be in orbit originally). I'd love to know where things stan
Re:I have given this thought previously... (Score:4, Interesting)
Being tethered to the support "pylons", if you had a good balast system installed you might not need to pressurize at that shallow of a depth, since that pressure is well within the bounds of current and conventional construction materials to endure. (Several hundred PSI at worst.)
You would "weigh down" the structure with dirt, and use a pumped ballast system to control the bouancy of the complex. There would be an emergency pressurization system to cause rapid ascent in the event of a major mechanical disaster (interconnects between modules breaks, balast system experiences extreme fault, etc--) which would pressurize individual modules, and make them self-bouyant in order to prevent having people in them sink to davy jone's locker, but this system would only activate in the "OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! AHHH!" type circumstances.
Basically, the idea is to have the connected modules have "neutral bouancy" at that depth, by having static ballast to overcome their water displacement. With that achieved, direct airway access to the surface is possible, as long as the skin is made of a material strong enough to endure the crushing weight of the water around it.
As you go deeper down, the pressure difference is too high for materials science to keep 1 atm pressure, so they have to "reinforce" the skin by pressurizing the interior; this is when you start having decompression issues and the like.
Even then, there are effective maximum depths at which ordinary atmospheric gas becomes a problem, but you already seem to have a full working knowledge of that problem.
At the extreme, the pressure inside the vessel (needed to keep it from crushing up like a soda can) is itself deleterious to the health of the occupants, causing biological disorders in and of itself. (the pressure starts mucking up with cellular metabolism and various vital processes, simply because of the different chemical properties that the body's fluids take on in such conditions.)
As such, "Living on the deep ocean floor" is probably never going to happen.
This "Shallow, neutrally bouyant" approach looks plausible though.