US Army Unveils 'Revolutionary' $35,000 Rifle 782
rbrander writes "Don't call it a 'rifle,' call it the 'XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System' and get your $35,000 worth. Much more than a projector of high-speed lead, this device hurls small grenades that automatically detonate in mid-flight with 1-meter accuracy over nearly 800m. The vital field feature is the ability to explode 1m behind the wall you just lazed — the one with the enemy hiding behind it."
Defilade (Score:2, Informative)
noun
the protection of a position, vehicle, or troops against enemy observation or gunfire.
Re:Forget the cost of the gun (Score:3, Informative)
The United States is leveraging its ultimate secret weapon: Deficit Spending!
So basically a very expensive K11? nice (Score:4, Informative)
OICW (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not an expert on military stuff, but I have been interested in this and I have read articles about it over the years.
This came out of research that started many years ago, the OICW [wikipedia.org] program.
The original vision was that every soldier might get a fancy grenade launcher like this as his/her primary weapon. But you don't dare use a grenade if an enemy is at very close range (perhaps attacking with something as simple as a pointed stick), so the OICW was supposed to have a close-range, defensive capacity: a "kinetic energy" weapon, i.e., bullets. The result was a heavy, complex, expensive weapon that didn't make anyone happy.
But I guess the research to produce the fancy grenade launcher paid off, and here is the result.
I was always troubled by the 25mm projectile size. Can a 25mm projectile contain enough explosives to produce the desired effect when it air-bursts? I guess so, if they are deploying it.
For general issue, it will continue to be the M16 family for the foreseeable future. I have read the occasional article about the military starting to wish it had a rifle of intermediate calibre between the 5.56mm of the M16 and the 7.62mm used before the M16. In desert engagements, ranges might be farther than the M16 can comfortably handle; in jungle terrain, foliage can sometimes deflect the 5.56 bullet. But nobody wants to try to generally issue the 7.62 mm again, as it has much more recoil than the 5.56, and it would be a pain to introduce some sort of new ammo.
But now this new, fancy grenade launcher looks like it shall fill in the gap: it shoots a relatively massive projectile at up to 500 metres point effect, and up to 1000 meters area effect (source: Wikipedia). The ammo will be much more expensive than 5.56 ammo, and it will need batteries and special training besides; but if it really works as promised, it should be very cost-effective. (Even if you spent many dollars in ammo on attacking the enemy, if it decisively stops the attack from the enemy before he inflicts casualties, you have come out ahead.)
As I said, I am no kind of expert and I welcome corrections if I said anything wrong here.
steveha
Re:Does it Jam in Hot Dusty Conditions? (Score:5, Informative)
That's true to some extent (especially where aircraft are concerned), but the rifle analogy is not quite correct.
In Vietnam, American troops were armed with the recently-developed M-16, early versions of which frequently jammed. They jammed because the rifle was prototyped using ammunition packed with pellet-shaped nitrocellulose gunpowder (which worked fine in bad conditions), but mass-produced using stick-type nitrocellulose/nitrogylcerin gunpowder (which fouled the barrel if the weapon was not cleaned regularly). The lack of cleaning supplies and instructions for troops didn't help matters either.
Once this design flaw was identified, the powder was changed, the barrel was lined with chrome, and troops were given instructions and tools to clean the weapons. Afterward, they became much more reliable in jungle conditions.
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:3, Informative)
The basic M16 is well under a thousand dollars. But a fully tricked-out M16, with a range-finding night vision scope mounted on it, costs a lot more than a basic M16! On the gripping hand, not many troops get the fully tricked-out version.
I read some articles about the OICW, and I was dubious about the cost. Some OICW apologists argued that it wasn't really going to be that much more expensive than the M16, and they used the most expensive M16 numbers they could find. IIRC it was on the order of $10,000 or more.
Also, I wonder how the price of $35,000 is being computed. If they are amortizing the R&D costs for two decades of research, that would tend to make the weapon look more expensive. I doubt that the manufacturing cost is that high. But I'm not an expert.
Hmmm, for what it's worth: Wikipedia projects the cost per weapon at $25,000.
steveha
Costs + "How Revolutionary?" (Score:5, Informative)
The cost of keeping men in theater is so great that if this (or any) weapon reduced the length of the conflict by 1%, it will likely have paid for itself. The real issue is whether the conflict can be solved by killing people.
Likewise, the cost of recruiting, training, and maintaining a soldier is so large that if this weapon saves some lives and prevents some injuries, it will pay for itself.
As far as how "revolutionary" the system is, well, I can't say for sure because I'm not using one. I'm guessing that this weapon will be issued to the guy in the team who would normally be carrying the M16/M4 with the M203 on it. The M203 is reasonably effective for firing on enemies behind cover. When I had the chance to fire one in Basic Training, I could very reliably put a round through a window out to about 100 meters. Landing a round a couple meters behind a berm or small wall was a bit more tricky but definitely doable. The sighting system on the XM25, the much flatter trajectory, and the air-burst feature should make these kinds of shots much much easier. It will also allow a soldier to shoot from the prone position, which isn't so easy with the M203. The important thing about this weapon is the range. Being about to put those grenade rounds out to 800 meters is a big advance over 150M with the M203.
I haven't shot or handled one of these weapons, but I can imagine firing one. What I imagine is something similar to the feeling of firing a M2 or Mk19-- my feeling was 'Holy shit! There's nowhere to hide..." That's what I can imagine with this weapon.
Re:Forget the cost of the gun (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_machine_gun [wikipedia.org]
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:5, Informative)
What this weapon will replace is the need for many mortar fire missions by 81mm mortars (and possibly the squad or platoon 60mm mortar).
Mortars are used when a very rapid response is required in order to combat ground units that are firing on relatively open friendly units from relatively defensible positions. I say again, a very rapid response. They always fire at a high trajectory so can be dropped behind walls and even an advancing mortar group can be on the target or at least adjusting on, within five minutes or less from the time the incoming fire mission request is received. If the mortars are already stationary (e.g. they are in a fire base), then they can be 'on' even faster... faster than artillery can get on target. I've heard quotes that mortars were the most dangerous weapon on the battle field in both Vietnam and WWII; accounting for more killed and wounded than other weapons.
As to what you are worried about... collateral damage i.e. civilians. Mortars are fired from up to 5km away. Each tube has a 'beaten zone' where their bombs fall, shaped like a football. For an 81mm mortar, the beaten zone can be up to 100m long by 40 or 50 metres wide. Combine that with three other mortars in a mortar group and you have a wide area of damage (hence the term 'area suppression weapon'). Don't believe what you see in the movies... 81mm mortar HE has a kill radius of 40 metres. *kill* radius.
So if a squad/section, platoon, company, or even one or two soldiers are under fire and need a fire mission to save their asses, they call for a fire mission (which will usually be mortars if they are in range). If they are in a built up area and there are civilians around, they are likely to be hit unless they are underground. If artillery receives the fire mission, the amount of damage they will cause is at least double.
So now we have this infantry carried version of a shoulder fired light automatic mortar. To me, this is a better description of what it is. Since the target is directly sighted by the person firing, it is more likely that they will be able to hit the intended target quickly and more effectively. And since the blast area is smaller, collateral damage is for a certainly going to be far, far less than calling in fire missions from kilometres distant guns firing shells with explosive power orders of magnitude more powerful than those of this new weapon.
So no, it doesn't preclude you from having civilian casualties. The only way to preclude this is to never have war. Being that we are humans, you can have high hopes of this, but this will only happen when Santa Claus delivers it. However, if I were a civilian close to the fighting, I would rather have these fired when one side is trying to suppress fire (or take out the enemy).
As for the 60mm mortar, it almost certainly will be replaced by this in many armies, but I have heard, not all. I think it is not a direct replacement and getting rid of the 60 is a bad idea... something akin to removing the automatic cannon from the design of the F4 Phantom fighters; mainly because the prevailing rational that dog fights were a thing of the past since missiles would do it all. We now know that this is ridiculous, and they put the cannons back into the planes. i.e. I think the 60 could make a come back into armies that remove them thinking this is a direct replacement. Reason being is that this weapon likely won't provide as effective a solution when you want to drop some bombs behind a building or some other application that requires an extremely high elevation/trajectory. But this new weapon will be excellent to hit enemy behind the closest wall or other similar cover.
Re:Does it Jam in Hot Dusty Conditions? (Score:5, Informative)
In Vietnam, American troops were armed with the recently-developed M-16, early versions of which frequently jammed. They jammed because the rifle was prototyped using ammunition packed with pellet-shaped nitrocellulose gunpowder (which worked fine in bad conditions), but mass-produced using stick-type nitrocellulose/nitrogylcerin gunpowder (which fouled the barrel if the weapon was not cleaned regularly). The lack of cleaning supplies and instructions for troops didn't help matters either.
Once this design flaw was identified, the powder was changed, the barrel was lined with chrome, and troops were given instructions and tools to clean the weapons. Afterward, they became much more reliable in jungle conditions.
This apology for the M-16 just misses the forest for the trees. The reason the M-16 is so sensitive to the type of gunpowder used is because it uses direct impingement [wikipedia.org] gas operation. Note that most other common military rifle families don't use this design. Why don't they? Because it's less reliable!
Weapon is more capable than article indicates (Score:5, Informative)
To my mind, this capability is in fact far more important than the 'shoot behind walls' factor. Honestly, for $35,000 you can carry around something capable of blowing UP the wall and the people behind it.
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Does it Jam in Hot Dusty Conditions? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, it was indeed a rather extreme test, which explains why the difference in numbers is so big. Thing is, it doesn't go away in other conditions, it just isn't quite as pronounced.
When it comes to "typical operating environment", you can't do better than ask the grunts in the field [defenseindustrydaily.com]:
"I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too."
“The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning."
“Dusty, desert conditions do require vigilance in weapons maintenance However, it is imperative to remember that at the time of the attack, the 507th had spent more than two days on the move, with little rest and time to conduct vehicle repair and recovery operations.”
The official Army position is:
"M16s and M4s “functioned reliably” in the combat zone as long as “soldiers conducted daily operator maintenance and applied a light coat of lubricant."
which is pretty much confirming their point. It is a high-maintenance weapon, which is a major issue for main infantry rifle.
Re:hard to see how this works (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:3, Informative)
Bingo! Somebody who gets it.
Infantry forces do like to have new tech as an option, but they also favour holding on to their existing hardware. Part of this is adherence to tradition, but another element is reliability. If $gun_type_x works just fine in it's role, the troops know how to use it, and no external circumstance has drastically changed, why replace it with $gun_type_y?
What's far more common is for new tech to build on or improve existing tech. If you look at the difference between a Vietnam era M16 and a current era M4, the differences are almost entirely incremental improvements based on advancing technology and field-tested solutions. One small thing changed at a time until the end result is distinct from the beginning.
Novel weapons like the one in TFA, where the main intent is to use them in specialized situations, will be adopted long before the military seriously considers replacing existing, general-purpose hardware.
Re:Also there is simply a weight consideration (Score:3, Informative)
Standard annual Marine Corps rifle qualification requires 10 shots from the prone position at a man sized target from 500m with iron sights. I used to put 7-9 in the black every year. Even the less capable shots in the units I was in would put at least 50% on target from that range.
Re:Killing people seldom Ends the Fighting (Score:3, Informative)
Nevermind that bin Laden was extensively trained by the CIA.
There's ample evidence [wikipedia.org] that this claim lies somewhere between grossly misstated and total bullshit.
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:3, Informative)
In my basic military training, I used to work in a position with access to pricing lists (not US, though). I can tell that while most stuff was incredibly expensive, guns and rifles where actually pretty cheap. $800 for an assault rifle sounds pretty reasonable (without any extra accessories, of course).
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:3, Informative)
is there such a thing as an "accurised" M16? I.e. someone paying a fair amount of money to an armourer to tune a standard rifle for higher accuracy?
Yes, there are accurized AR-15s. Fully floated handguards, Kreiger stainless steel barrels with 1:7 or 1:8 twist, 1/4 MOA iron sights, and a two stage trigger. Mine also have additional lead weights in the handguards and stock to reduce shake. They are generally used for NRA High Power matches, and they cost about 2x what a standard AR costs.
Two manufacturers that come to mind are Compass Lake Engineering and White Oak Precision
m
Re:Hope It Helps End the Fighting (Score:5, Informative)
I was in Iraq way back when it was still a war. I was an infantryman, and got to do all the fun infantry stuff you do in a shooting war (sarcasm intended). My personal weapon was an M249, but I trained and shot with M-16 variants my whole career. In an 18-month combat tour I only ever saw one M-4 jam. That was due to a double-feed because the FNG private liked to practically bathe his magazines in CLP. It's been a long time since the M-16 was introduced, and for some time the weak link in proper weapon operation has been the individual soldiers own PMCS. If you don't take care of your weapon, no shit, it's going to jam.
Except for calves and forearms, I also never saw anyone shot with a 5.56 round just ignore it and keep fighting. Hit someone anywhere near center mass and they all go down. They also tend not to die right away, and the screaming and gurgling definitely has a negative impact on their buddies' fighting effectiveness.
And the Army does still use M-14s for designated marksmen. They're great weapons in that role, and the round does have more energy at range than the 5.56, but they're heavy, unwieldy, and useless in close combat. Which you can't avoid in Iraq. Still, some did prefer it; to each his own, I suppose. Just don't believe the 'M-16s are plastic toys' myth.
[semantic mode]BTW, the 5.56 is a NATO standard rifle round.[/semantic mode]
Re:hard to see how this works (Score:3, Informative)
The projectile is traveling say 1000 feet per second ( let's say that the target is 500m away starting behind a long stone wall ), then the projectile explodes. To kill someone it just passed, it will have to fire lots of large fragments backward and down ( or backward and sideways - if person is standing around the corner of a building ) at at least 1000-2000 feet / second to be lethal.
The physics on this is tricky. To do this, you need to meet the "for every action, an opposite and equal reaction" law. This means something of equal mass will fly forward at ~ 3,000 ft/sec ( this is wasted material not being aimed at anything except unsuspecting persons in the distance ) . In the end, you are talking about a round with what? maybe 20 fragments ( to increase the odds of hitting something ) and each fragment will have to 1) fly fast enough to penetrate and ideally cause hydrostatic shock and 2) be heavy enough to do damage....
This thing is throwing a small anti-personnel grenade (similar to the kind people throw by hand, but smaller) and will be designed similarly.
A modern anti-personnel grenade weighing 132 g (like the XM25) will have something like 30 g of high explosive, 70 g of fragments (a very high explosive/fragment ratio) and will propel them at 5000-6000 ft/sec, a kinetic energy per gram perhaps 10 times what a combat round has at range. The fragments themselves probably only weigh around 50 milligrams so over 1000 of them will be sent out in all directions. This makes the grenade 100% lethal at 5-10 m from its burst point.
But here is the tricky thing - such tiny high velocity fragments slow down in air very fast. Much beyond 10 m they become too slow to do any damage (the size chosen is based on what the desired radius of safety is).