North Korea Says War With South Would Go Nuclear 608
A reader writes "According to reports from the Uriminzokkiri, the official website of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, a war with South Korea would involve nuclear weapons, and '[will] not be limited to the Korean peninsula.' The article goes on, 'The Korean peninsula remains a region fraught with the greatest danger of war in the world. This is entirely attributable to the US pursuance of the policy of aggression against the DPRK (North Korea).'"
Okie dokie then (Score:5, Insightful)
a war with South Korea would involve nuclear weapons, and '[will] not be limited to the Korean peninsula.'
So what they're saying is if tensions rise the only safe response is to proactively nuke North Korea until they glow.
Well alllll righty then. B-bye now!
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:0, Insightful)
Wait a minute... (Score:5, Insightful)
Didn't we (and by we I mean the US and the UK) just finish "liberating" 2 other countries on much flimsier pretexts than this. We've got a crackpot dictator AND genuine WMD's (although the phrase WMD seems to be getting applied to anything larger than small arms nowadays) surely in the spirit of not being hypocritical warmongering oil fetishists we must now "liberate" North Korea.
Genocide? Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like how the concept of total annihilation of a country is so easily bandied about. Not just this post, but all over the place. There are 24,051,218 people in North Korea (says Wikipedia), and only a large handful of them are actually causing this problem. How is it even conceivable to murder 24 million innocents (brainwashed, maybe; evil, no) because we don't like the guys in charge. Maybe the North Koreans can talk like that because the people talking are totally insane, but anyone else in the world shouldn't even have this cross their minds. Godwin called, he'd like to remind you that 24 million is four holocausts.
Dear Stuxnet (Score:4, Insightful)
Dear whoever made Stuxnet: I don't care who you are. I don't want to know. But please mess these guys up. Overspin some centerfuges. Junk up some technical schematics. Generally make them miserable and ineffective.
Cry wolf (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:4, Insightful)
Mod Up Please (Score:3, Insightful)
When George Bush declared North Korea to be part of the "Axis of Evil", it was doing Kim Jong-Il a favor, making both Kim and Dubya sound like bad-asses that their populations should respect. Kim may be following in his family traditions of bat-shit insanity and sociopathic disrespect for the people he's ruler of, but he's still playing mostly for a local audience, and secondarily for other world leaders playing for their own local audiences.
Re:Dear Stuxnet (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:5, Insightful)
That isn't a legend, it's an idea that was seriously proposed. And no, nobody ever built it. To begin with, by the middle of the cold war it wasn't necessary.
"Second strike" capability, that is the ability to launch a devastating counter attack when all of your airfields and missile silos are replaced with glowing craters, made destruction mutually assured, and therefor made the war unwinnable. A single SSBN with a payload of twenty MIRVed missiles has enough firepower to level several opposing cities, more than enough to be a deterrent, and the oceans offer a huge range of hiding places. You don't need a doomsday device to ensure an enemy will not be able to win with a preemptive strike when you have boomers.
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:5, Insightful)
Not at all.
They are completely sane, and completely ruthless, and they don't think like you do so NEVER take North Korean propaganda at face value.
This is perfectly standard NK gamesmanship repeated down the decades. They are rational, calculating, and smarter than naive Westerners. This game is very old news, as any Cold War vet can attest.
The Norks are magnificent at classic Cold War penis-waving, they are the finest of trolls, and they are NOT going to commit suicide. Unlike Jihadists, who are horny to die for Allah, Norks leadership are rational and want to stay rich and powerful. Know and understand the difference.
That is not to say the NK masses won't willingly die in droves if ordered, just like the last time, but that is what masses of simple people are for.
The NK Army never lost a war, just battles. Don't forget that bit either.
Re:Genocide? Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't do nuclear retaliation out of revenge or spite.
What you do instead is make it clear that, if fired upon with nuclear weapons, you will retaliate in kind. And in order for this to be an effective deterrent, the opposing force has to actually care about their own civilians. I'm not at all sure that ol' Kimmy is at all motivated by the welfare of his subjects.
What would be far more effective is letting North Korea know that if they nuke Seoul or Tokyo, we will nuke every bunker their leadership might hide in. Maybe release satellite photos of said bunkers showing that we know where they'll be hiding if the bombs start flying, and intimating that those safe havens will not be safe for very long in a nuclear war. Make it a personal threat instead, such that self-preservation becomes a major factor.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is tech news? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that some of those cables should have been released, but Wikileaks was extraordinarily irresponsible in deciding to release all of them. Some of this stuff is secret for a good reason, and a cable stating that China would like to see North Korea taken over by the South is exactly the kind of thing that could potentially destabilize an already unstable situation.
Re:I'm so scared... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's easy to be nonchalant about it when you don't like in Seoul. If war breaks out, Seoul will get hit by North Korean artillery nonstop. The other major concern is that China would get involved, and nobody wants to see the US and China going at it, either directly or via proxy. If it weren't for those two reasons, Kim Jong-il and co. would have been wiped out a long time ago. The only thing that could make those risks bearable would be if the alternative is an aggressive, uncontrollable nuclear state, and that's exactly what North Korea is becoming.
Nobody's on North Korea's side if they go to war, not even China. China's only interests in NK are, in order:
1) Prevent millions of North Korean refugees from flowing over the border to China (it's not like they're going to go to their other neighbor through all the robotic sentry guns [gizmag.com].
2) Serve as a buffer between the pro-US South Korea and China's eastern border.
China will support Kim so long as he remains a posturing blowhard, but the moment he actually tries to invade--and triggers all those millions of refugees that China dreads flowing into their country--they'll turn their backs on him instantly.
Re:This is tech news? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is once again assuming that North Korea didn't already know that little bit of info that directly pertained to them and was visible to three million people.
Re:This is tech news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, starting a nuclear war in response to finding out you only (massive, nuclear armed) ally wants you to sit down and shut up seems counter productive. Not to say that anything N. Korea does is sane: but I doubt it was a secret to N. Korea that China wanted N. Korea to make like it wasn't there (though the kid might not have been happy to hear it). The Chinese have the most to lose by a destabilized East Asia, whereas the N. Koreans have virtually nothing to lose. I'm sure China has spoken to them directly about the matter. They probably said something like: swing your dick around a few times to save face about the shelling, then go back to barely being there.
Re:Genocide? Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, "suicide by cop" is where you provoke a cop into shooting you. Usually by making it seem like you're about to shoot them, and not giving them time to realize that you aren't.
Whereas NK's actions have been carefully calculated to push the boundaries, yet not actually provoke a military response.
It would be trivial for NK to provoke a shooting war, and with their state-run media still blame it on our aggression and "save face". They avoid doing so. Instead, they do just enough to remain a credible threat and bring the other parties to the negotiating table and win concessions.
Their behavior matches that of someone who is interested in maintaining power, and acquiring as much more as they can. It does not in any way match the behavior of someone trying to commit suicide.
The only change they are interested in is the transition from Kim's rule to his son's. Part of that transition is going to be Kim the younger establishing himself with the military. Taking an aggressive stance -- but not so aggressive that we actually attack and destroy his power base -- helps with that, and is completely consistent with what is happening.
As if admitting the big lie, or their inability to do so, has anything to do with it. They want to keep the big lie running for another generation at least.
So yeah, I'm quite sure they aren't suicidal.
Re:Wait a minute... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some cables were leaked a few weeks back where China clearly does not support and will not support N. Korea in a war against the South and the US.
These cables come from the US Embassy in China which doesn't have the authority to speak for the Chinese government. Nor are these statements yet backed by action. Nor do they state that China wouldn't support North Korea in a war. Finally, the Chinese government is not monolithic in decision-making. While it is comforting to read statements from Chinese officials, that indicate intent to abandon policies that have caused great harm in the past, we shouldn't confuse these words with outcome.
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Re:This is tech news? (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it a coincidence that all this talk about nuking other countries is coming a couple of weeks after the release of that cable by Wikileaks?
This kind of rhetoric has been going on for years as have a number of dangerous military confrontations. You really can't pin this on Wikileaks.
I think that some of those cables should have been released, but Wikileaks was extraordinarily irresponsible in deciding to release all of them.
There have been many redactions in the documents to protect individuals. In recent years it has been the lies of governments that have cost so many lives. Now it's time for some truth.
Re:This is tech news? (Score:4, Insightful)
I for one would prefer for DPRK to know it won't have allies if push comes to shove.
Yes, let's corner a nuclear armed animal and make him very afraid.
Kim Jong * will not survive any governmental change. They know it.
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Okie dokie then (Score:2, Insightful)
Perhaps one definitive, total annihilation will convice some other regimes they better play ball with us.
Or it would prove to the rest of the world that the muslim fanatics are right and you really are evil incarnate. If you were to nuke someone, no matter who or why, I would immediately join or if necessary start an initiative to pressure our government into severing all diplomatic, economic and military ties with you, and ask every other government to do the same.
You are already the only country to ever actually use nuclear weapons. If you demonstrate that you are willing to do that again, you would have become a danger to the entire world.
Re:Okie dokie then (Score:2, Insightful)
but if they do I guess I hope our President and Military leaders can in fact bite their lip and carpet bomb them into oblivion.
How about biting their lips and realizing that the rest of the planet is not their backyard and it's been 60 years since their intervention in some foreign conflict actually solved the problem instead of making it worse?
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:4, Insightful)
nuclear powered, plutonium fueled, unmanned bombers
You know, I thought you were serious until you put this part in. Now I'm just laughing... We barely have "unmanned bombers" now, much less in the 50's.
Re:I'm sure they're (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, In NK, the top leadership have most of what they want. Hell, they are driving new mercedes. They have Rolls Royce there. They have homes that would be equal to what millionaires have here. And it is free for the taking. So, would walking away with 100 million dollars do for you? Nothing.
Now, imagine if you could kill somebody and make lots of gains, with little repercussion? Would you do it? Few would. Part of that is because they would wonder if there really was so little of repercussions. They will constantly wonder if they will be held accountable. BUT, if they KNOW that they will be held accountable, then VERY FEW WOULD DO IT.
Finally, if somebody launches a nuke against the USA, or a NATO nation, and the KNOWN response will be TOTAL ANNIHILATION OF ALL LEADERS AND EVERY MEMBER OF THEIR FAMILIES, and possibly their nation, do you think that OTHER nations will try that? Think that Iran, Burma, and now Venezuela will try it? DO you think that China will do it (who is the only major nation that is in active production of nuke warheads)? Nope.
Since MAD can not work here, then we need for every small nation to understand that ANY USE OF A NUKE WILL MEAN THEIR TOTAL DESTRUCTION. Then and only then, will you not see any of these nations use one.
But if NK believes that they can send one into SK and America will do nothing, do you think that NK would send one in? I KNOW that they would.
If you really wish to avoid war, then make certain that the other side knows that war will mean their total annihilation. BTW, if NK does attack and we do nothing, then Iran will be next to attack. And it will occur quickly.
Re:Wait a minute... (Score:2, Insightful)
North Korea is beyond liberation. For change, the entire nation and it's culture must be obliterated . But that would be a genuine crime against humanity. So, we wait for South Korea to go up in smoke. That's when the endless talking with the Chinese and Russians start. Next, we decide on how best to rebuild that nation on the terms of the North Korean regime based on special provisions and treaties.
No, the Western World doesn't have the balls to face evil anymore. We are...pussies.
Someone once thought that way .. His name was Adolf Hitler and he thought that ridding the world of Jews was a good thing. Luckily the US fought against him 70 years back.
If you want to talk about evil, then perhaps you should look in the mirror first.