A Floating Home For Tech Start-ups 332
JoeMerchant writes "Max Marty, founder of Blueseed, thinks immigration laws in the U.S. make it too difficult for entrepreneurs from other countries to come to the U.S. and develop new technologies. In order to solve this, he's trying to buy a large ship he can anchor off the coast of California, in international waters, which he can then turn into a start-up incubator, fostering a 'year-long hack-a-thon.' From the article: 'With a B-1 visa, visitors can freely travel to the United States for meetings, conferences, and even training seminars. B-1 visas are relatively easy to get, and can be valid for as long as 10 years. Blueseed plans to provide regular ferry service between the ship to the United States. While Blueseed residents would need to do their actual work—such as writing code—on the ship, Marty envisions them making regular trips to Silicon Valley to meet with clients, investors, and business partners. With the ship only 12 miles offshore, it should be practical to make a day trip to the mainland and return in the evening. A B-1 visa also permits overnight stays.'"
Well good luck with that (Score:5, Informative)
I love the people who seem to think international waters means "You can do whatever you want." No, not really. You can declare yourself to be your own country or whatever but that doesn't matter. There are only two real ways to be an independent country:
1) Get recognized as such by one or more major international bodies like the UN, NATO, etc. When the big boys say "Yup, you are independent," then you are. This is more or less how it goes for countries like Iceland, that have effectively no military.
2) Have enough guns that nobody can challenge your independence. That's how it works for countries like the US or China. Doesn't really matter what anyone wants to think, they are independent by virtue of nobody has the ability to invade them.
Neither of that would be the case for this little offshore platform. The US could screw them over real simply by just refusing to allow sea or air traffic to or from the platform. If there was any real problem, they could send in the Coast Guard. In the event the people on the platform fired on the USCG, well that is that as per US law that's an act of war and then the Navy can get involved.
Alternatively they could flag themselves under some nation, but then they are subject to that nations laws, and of course that nation will have treaties with the US and so on.
A B1 visa is not easy to get... (Score:5, Informative)
.. this particular assumption is wrong.
I am based out of Canada at the moment and I work in a big IT company. We had our annual conference in Chicago, I applied for a B1 and was refused. The grounds were that i apparently could not prove "strong ties to my home country" . I am originally from India, and my job requires me to travel a lot. This situation ( having stayed in Canada for 6 months only ) was the criteria for them to reject my entry. And i had a perfectly valid reason to visit the US.
This is not a rant. I hope the backers of the venture understand that there are many more visa issues than what they are aware off.
Re:Terrorism target. (Score:5, Informative)
12 miles is well within the US's EEZ (which is 200 miles I believe), so the Coast Guard would absolutely take a dim view of anyone using violence within that zone. And the CG I'm sure doesn't give a rat's ass about someone doing an end-run around immigration laws, especially if there's someone in US waters using weapons against any vessels. Again, these are not international waters. Try going fishing out there in violation of US fishing regulations and see what the CG does to you.
Re:Or ... (Score:5, Informative)
This is the part I don't get: why bother with this dumb ship? Just set up shop in Vancouver and ignore the US altogether. Vancouver is already home to lots of software companies. On top of this, while Canada's immigration laws are pretty strict, if you're a software engineer, that's pretty much a free pass to get into the country. In addition, if you have $300k ready to deposit into a Canadian bank account, that'll get you in too. Canada is very friendly to people who will improve their economy. And if you really need to travel to Silicon Valley, it's not that long a plane flight from Vancouver to San Jose.
What an incredibly stupid idea. (Score:2, Informative)
Hey, dumbass. We have this thing called The Internet now. You can videoconference over it, and share text and pictures you create on your computer. Actually being in the same room with someone is less productive, overall, since you end up catching their diseases and have to spend the next week on the ship hanging over the rail. And then the pirates take all your shit and kidnap your IT department and the US Navy bills you 18 times your 5-year-plan to get them back for you.
Fucking seriously. Why are airlines still in business? Oh wait, they're dropping like flies [ft.com]. Clue.
Get a computer. Get a wi-fi router and a broadband modem and an ISP. Get Skype and a bluetooth headset and a $5 webcam. Then go the fuck away, stay the fuck away, and show up on time for your meetings.
What, no link to their actual site? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.blueseed.co/ [blueseed.co]
Now let's see if we can flood it :-)
Re:And the US will just put up with that? (Score:4, Informative)
And then they are subject to all US laws. That is what a flag means. When you flag yourself in a given country (by the way the country has to permit it and register you) you are declaring that ship to be a little floating part of that country, subject to all its laws and regulations. You can also be subject to more laws, for example if you are in the waters of another country you are also subject to that country's laws, but no matter what you are subject to the laws of your flag nation.
In the US, that includes things like immigration law.
Re:Not a new idea (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but we never had a globalised information economy before. I can see the argument that getting the best of the non-U.S. citizens in the same place, having them work intensively on startups, and having access to Silicon Valley investors and resources, would potentially work. Think of it as Y Combinator for people who can't get a visa. Their estimated low price point is $1200/person/month; at that price there are investors who would be willing to finance small startup teams in exchange for equity. Let's say total cost is $2k/person/month, that's $18k for 3 people for 3 months, which is equal to the average amount that Y Combinator invests in their "3 month move to California" development program. And for the top graduates from Africa, India, China etc. this would look like a good opportunity given the huge potential rewards at the end.
The real question here, is whether proximity to Silicon Valley offers any real advantage to startups anymore? This place will be competing against startup accelerators in India and elsewhere, so why would a top Indian graduate choose to use this accelerator rather than one based in India?
Re:Not a new idea - and 24 nm, not 12 nm (Score:5, Informative)
The US has had a "contiguous zone" extending from 12nm (nautical miles, not nanometers :-) to 24nm since 1999.
The US maintains customs, fiscal, immigration, sanitary laws and regulations out to 24nm, so a floating coding platform within that limit would be subject to not just immigration laws (so B1 visas would not be sufficient, since they do not leave US immigration jurisdiction at any point if they're only 12nm from land), but all tax and related laws as well.
Re:Or ... (Score:5, Informative)
Mexican Immigrant here. I arrived in Mexico in 2003 and I have been illegal in Mexico for a quite a while (~ 2 years). When I went to the migration service (Xalapa) the people were *extremely* friendly. I had to pay a small fine and leave the country and come back in. I even got advice on how to do this the easiest way: go to Guatemala, cross at one border post, travel to the next one and come back into Mexico the same day. Trip to Tapachula (Chiapas) by bus was ~12 hrs, hopping over the border, and taking a minibus to the next border post and back to Tapachula took an hour or two, and we took the next bus back to Xalapa. All in all it was done over the weekend ( A very short visit to Guatamala [johnbokma.com] ).
As for the immigration laws, as long as you can prove that you can make a small income you can start your paperwork, which is extremely easy to do. The immigration people are extremely helpful and very patient and give solid advice, in my experience.
I have also lived in New Zealand for a little over 2 years, and the whole NZ immigration circus is extremely elitist, expensive if you're not careful, and there is a strong hate against Asian people and a very strong preference for people purebred in the UK.
Re:uhh yeah (Score:5, Informative)
The highly skilled people take jobs Americans want.
But aren't skilled enough to do. It's better to bring the skilled people to America, rather than forcing the job to another country. I heard a statistic once, that Silicon Valley has 1% of the Canadian population. One of Canada's problems is losing highly skilled, highly educated people to the US. The best tech minds in the world concentrate in Silicon Valley. It is no coincidence that Silicon Valley innovates like no other. Kick out all the highly-skilled, highly-educated immigrants from Silicon Valley, and you'll see that things come quickly to a halt. The US is in an envious position, where highly skilled/educated people WANT to move there, and do.
The uneducated immigrants, all media hyperbole aside, take jobs Americans don't.
Exactly my point. These are ILLEGAL immigrants. Why does the US have a system where illegal is the norm? It makes no sense! Naturalize them, bring them into the system, and have them pay their share of the taxes. Having so many people in this grey area is ridiculous.
Re:Terrorism target. (Score:4, Informative)
Short answer: You need to read about the USS Cole bombing. [wikipedia.org]
Slight longer answer: The ocean water is not calm. Any breach in a ship's hull will be detrimental to the vessel's ability to stay afloat. Your scenario using watertight compartments only serves as a method to delay the vessel's decent long enough for rescue crews to arrive. Depending on the weather conditions this may not be enough. Water filling the watertight compartment will cause the vessel to list towards the breach. This means that the deck is now more susceptible to waves breaking over the rail. Even if the opposite side could be ballasted to level the deck the resulting vessel depth would still make the vessel more susceptible to being swamped by the ocean's waves. This doesn't even take into account the stresses being placed on the vessel in rough seas with a breach and the metal fatigue that comes with the more affordable older vessels.
Re:A B1 visa is not easy to get... (Score:4, Informative)
I didn't sign up for "Selective Service".
You seem to be under the impression that Selective Service is optional. It isn't. You were required by law to register for it within 30 days of turning 18. Being abroad doesn't exempt you from this requirement.
Your attitude of blowing off selective service has probably got to do with the fact that nobody has been drafted in decades, but if they instituted a draft tomorrow, they can't just start collecting the information they need then - they have to maintain a database of eligible conscriptees. It sucks but that's the way of the world. If the worst that happened to you is that you can't get a federal loan or a government job, I'd say you got off pretty easy compared to, I don't know, going to Vietnam.
That you so lightly prefer 'gulags' to the 'bigotry' you have received tells me that you have never seen a real gulag, and also that you've probably never experienced real bigotry. May you be reincarnated as a Tsarist after the Bolshevik revolution or a Japanese American during the internment camps. You'll probably bitch less about gulags and bigotry in 2011.
Re:Not a new idea - and 24 nm, not 12 nm (Score:4, Informative)
If you enter on a tourist visa and do any business, you can and will be banned from entry for the next 5 years.
The real scam is that they'll be able to get Americans to sign up, and try to avoid having to give even the minimum benefits required by law ...