"Learn To Code, Get a Job" According To CNN 688
An anonymous reader writes "CNN is running an opinion article that talks about Michael Bloomberg's taking part in CodeAdacemy's CodeYear program, which aims to teach average people to learn enough to work as a Software Developer by year end. I'm trying to not be elitist in judging this article and those involved, but I'm curious as to what /. thinks of this questionable plan."
BT,TD,GTTS (Score:5, Insightful)
You can get a job as a software developer in the same sense as a lot of people could go through HTML For Dummies and get jobs as Web Developers. That's great when companies are hungry for anyone even minimally qualified, but it's not going to do much for keeping your job when they start having to actually work with and maintain your work product.
That's all we need (Score:5, Insightful)
This will probably work. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've worked with plenty of people who had 5+ years of "experience" who perform at the competency level of a 1st year coder. Especially in very large companies I've found that the day-to-day tasks are usually designed to shield the employees from any apparent consequences of their own incompetence or any risk of becoming competent. Typically, 90% of the job is just being attractive and good-smelling enough that your co-workers can be nice to you without trying hard.
Off by one error (Score:2, Insightful)
Average users have a hard enough time even using software competently after a year's time. Let alone creating it.
Just think about many people still don't know how to find something simple like the control panel in XP after all these years...
Just what we need... (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone making promises that are fake but will reinforce uneducated PHB's
"Why should we pay you more? anyone can become a expert coder by studying at home part time for a year."
If you can read this, you can get a good job. (Score:3, Insightful)
2 weeks later the class size was cut in half when they found out how much work was involved.
Anyone can learn to write a "Hello World" program but that doesn't make them a software professional.
Well of course... (Score:5, Insightful)
...everyone knows that if you will just take a few weeks to learn to program, you can start making 60k or more a year within a month or two.
Ok, granted, this story wasn't quite THAT bad, and the idea that everyone should take a few weeks to learn what programming IS, the concepts, is probably a good idea. However, the idea that you can learn to be a programmer in one year is foolish. I've never had any formal training, self taught in Perl, javascript, some PHP, and been doing it as a minor part of my job for 15 years, and I'm not a programmer. Having at least moderate skills, to understand what a shell script or batch file is, what HTML code is and does, will help you in your job, but you aren't going to start creating more real programmers with one year, even if that is all they do is learn 24/7 for that year.
What there is a shortage of is people with MORE than one year of training as a programmer. People who can write good code, instead of the bloated crap that I write to just get the job done. But that isn't what this article is about, it is about promising something that won't happen, that learning a little coding will guarantee you a job. It won't help a forklift driver, someone used to working on an assembly line that is now part of a closed factory, or half the people looking for work now. It will do them personally good to understand a little, but it won't be the cure for our unemployment.
Unemployment is high right now, not because companies can't find good people, but because companies are afraid to take on the responsibility (and liability) of expanding and hiring until they absolutely have to, due to a messed up political and financial environment.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. A lame little site with twenty little lessons on Javascript and they have had two slashdot articles already plus a shedload of legacy media coverage just because they snuck Bloomy some preIPO stock or something. Meh.
Who needs coders? (Score:5, Insightful)
We already have too many coders at my current employer, what we need are software developers that know how to architect a maintainable system.
Lean-to (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been in this business for 30 years. Most code I've seen does indeed look like it was designed and written like a "lean-to".... and I have great faith that it will continue to do so as long as I live, and long after I'm gone too.
two major points to the article (Score:5, Insightful)
A major argument of the opinion piece is that having at least a rudimentary understanding of how computers and software actually work is increasingly important, and that learning some programming is a good way to accomplish that. I doubt anyone here would argue with that.
The second half of the article, while not explicitly saying it, does suggest that if a person spends a little time learning to code they'll magically get an awesome ("high-paying", in the words of the author) job. This is a major oversimplification, at least. The author provides no convincing evidence that this is true, except for a quote from his CEO friend.
Re:That's all we need (Score:2, Insightful)
I used to love my job. The passion is gone. If I didnt get paid for it I would probably still do it. But very rarely.
But *most* people can program. Sorry to let you down like this. 99% of the time these days you are just googling and gluing libraries together. It is a *rare* thing to use comp sci skills to do things. Working with cheap overseas labor has taught me this. No one cares about quality. They care about cost.
Every once and awhile I whip out the ol mojo and write some seriously cool code. But most of my co-workers dont get it. So I dumb it down. After working with ego maniacs, loosers, crappy coders, and so on over the years you dont care anymore.
Re:BT,TD,GTTS (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly it. IMHO, coding is equal parts art, ingenuity, and science. Writing great code is no different than trying to write a great trilogy of fiction. Anyone can write garbage, but it takes a mastery of the language itself, and that mastery is just a means to an end--creating something great.
Re:Lean? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't we want all of our code lean?
Not really - I've run into too many coders that think "lean" code is the same as "terse code". They skip comments, compress loops into a single line or use all sorts of other tricks to compress code into a single line, etc. Anything they can do to make their code "lean". Which of course, makes their code write-only.
Obligatory "you kids get off my lawn" (Score:5, Insightful)
Peter Norvig's "Teach Yourself To Programming In Ten Years" http://norvig.com/21-days.html [norvig.com]
Pretty much sums it up. There have also been many posters so far that have mentioned you can't just "make" someone a programmer. They have to want it, to enjoy it and to already "be" a programmer in mind and spirit. Same goes for the new British thing of forcing gradeschool kids to learn programming. Having it available as an option would be great, but forcing them into it won't give you more programmers, much less good ones. Meanwhile, all the kids that were going to become programmers will still do it whether you encourage them or not. Simple as that.
Surely the "Lean" up above is a typo, but there is a serious problem of late with Slashdotters and their spelling and grammar abilities. People who learned English as a second or third language get a pass, but for all you up and coming kids who are native speakers, what the fuck?
(my two hamfisted cents. I'm going back to Skyrim)
Re:BT,TD,GTTS (Score:5, Insightful)
Give a bunch of random people the science, and you'll find people who had the art and ingenuity but didn't know it.
At least they'll be sort-of trained (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:That's all we need (Score:5, Insightful)
*most* people can program
I dare you to do a week of first-line desktop support *anywhere* and come out with that belief intact.
Lots of people set their thermostat above the temperature they want just so they can turn it down when it gets too hot, even when they fully understand how a heater works.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Elitism: It's what Slashdot's serving for dinner.
Re:Lean? (Score:5, Insightful)
The code produced will the architectural equivalent of a "lean-to".
Its like practicing medicine after a first-aid course. Practicing law after watching Judge Judy.
These are the "handymen" of the IT industry.
Relax, guys.
These guys will get the moneymeisters to invest, as they will promise and deliver an inexpensive job.
Once the moneymeister has money invested, he will be easier to talk to as he will now have a vested interest in his investment actually being viable.
You know the story: Haircuts, $1.00. Across the street: We fix bad haircuts, $10.00.
But it gets better. The guy didn't need service at all until he got the buck job.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That's all we need (Score:5, Insightful)
Aahahahahahahaahaha...
Heh. Ahem, sorry.
<snrrrrrrrk>
To tell you the truth, I honestly don't know if most people could eventually learn to program well. I know that most people can, with time and effort, learn to write very, very simple programs - programs most of us would consider easy homework assignments from CSC101.
But most people hate hate hate everything that makes good programmers good programmers. They hate the tediousness, the methodicalness, the breaking-things-down-into-tiny-steps, the 8+ hours of keeping your brain in an alpha state. What "real" programmers view as fun and almost a form of meditation, the average Joe views as nothing short of self-imposed torture.
So yeah, maybe everyone could learn to program. But I have absolutely no concern that any time in my lifetime, "most" people will want to program even if they could learn to do it.
Elitism (Score:5, Insightful)
The above is NOT flamebait, o moderators. I meant it. I've been listening to, and reading, "blah, blah, stupid users never learn anything" since the 90's, and I think these criticisms are disingenuous as hell. Along comes an easy, fun set of lessons on the rudiments of programming, and people are deriding it for: too much media attention, too simple, too popular, et cetera. If your stance is, "I like being a computer geek because it allows me to look down on others," then that's your sad bag, but at least be honest about it. Only good can come from average people coming to realize that this stuff isn't some magic inborn to the 7th son of a rocket scientist; it just takes curiosity and persistence. I am calling bullshit on your defensive insecurity, and I have the Slashdot karma to burn doing it, tyvm.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
The recognition that some people are better than others at certain tasks is not elitism, it is merely recognition of reality.
Elitism is the idea that those better people ought to rule over the other ones.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't need people who know proper design techniques, just monkeys who can spew crappy code. And this isn't just for low-level positions either; you can get a bunch of them together and have them write totally brain-dead standards like CSS! Then they can do things like completely omit something as simple as a simple, direct way of centering something instead of having to use some weird hack with margins.
Re:Elitism (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh, good. (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't already?
Re:Lean? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hackers write code. Professional software engineers deliver business solutions.
For the beginning professional software engineers out there, here's a tip : comment your code (and comment it correctly.)
Code tell you what.
Comments tell you why.
Re:Elitism (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod Parent Up Please.
Really, I'm currently in the position of needing to hire a couple-few good solid developers and am having a hard time finding applicants let alone qualified ones so the concept of increasing the developer pool sounds attractive... Except! 1) As you say these dealios have been around forever and they generally do NOT produce good developers. 2) Did everyone just forget about the tech bubble days?! Everyone and their freaking grandma tried to get into "computer stuff" clogging the market with many thousands of completely crap devs making it hard for those of us who actually knew the trade to rise above the mire until companies finally started to get a clue. 3) I'm currently dealing with a small handful of College trained, experienced developers who can't seem to code their way out of a wet paper bag which does not make me excited about the possibility of hiring someone who's programming knowledge is based on an online Java Script Tutorial.
I will qualify my statements: We live in different days than we did 10 years ago. The sea change that has occurred means that people of all ages are now, generally, more "aware" of computers. They get along with them and are less likely to find their inner workings completely alien so maybe some more cream may come out of a better primordial goo. That and the article, if you actually read through it, specifically says they don't expect everyone to learn to program... just to better understand what they now work with on a day-to-day basis... in between lines telling them they'll be able to learn to code in 3 weeks and below a title saying "learn to code, get a job". I'll give very partial credit there.
Re:Elitism (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally it has nothing to do with me being able to 'look down on others' and has everything to do with this shit giving people a false impression of what it takes to actually become a software engineer. This shit attempts to trivialize the discipline in description. I am not looking to run around and say I am better than everyone, but I damn sure don't want people saying that what I do is something any moron can pick up in a year.
Not only that, this shit is just attempting to exploit the HUGE buzz around the need for more engineers (especially software engineers), the high pay statistics associated with the discipline, and the fact that people think the job market is in absolute shambles (it isn't near as bad as the general perception, with the way people talk you would think half the country is unemployed). I don't really approve of people being taken advantage of in such a manner, though I know some would argue if they fall for it they deserve. I disagree that anyone would deserve that precisely because of how little understanding the general populace has of what a software engineer does.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Elitism I don't mind so much.
It's the exclusiveness, keeping others down.
Someone on top should be reaching down with a hand, not shoving down with a boot.
Re:Elitism (Score:2, Insightful)
You're right--It's not unique in the traditional sense of teaching yourself to program, but that's not the only area in which it should be judged. That's like saying Reddit is redundant because Digg exists. The site is actually pretty good. The lessons are meaningful, the site is put together well. As it continues to grow and new lessons are added, I have no doubt in my mind that it will be an even more powerful resource to those wanting to learn.
Story time (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a martial arts instructor. Inevitably, a time comes when certain types of people ask me to teach them some "quick self defense." What I tell them is that I can pretty much show them all the basics they need to know in a long day; but that without knowing when to use these things, how to use them, what degree of the various implementations to apply, learning to see things coming sooner, hopefully before they create mayhem upon your person... it does very little good.
I see programming as somewhat like that. I can show how to write a conditional loop, maybe teach what a class is, talk about different kinds of variables... but without considerable experience wrapped around those things, not to mention at least some math, some tech savvy, some idea about what hardware actually consists of, and a goodly bit of time, you're not going to be a "programmer" any more than a day under my tender care will turn you into Bruce Lee.
Which is not to say you can't go out and get those things over the long term (by which I do not mean one year, btw). But most people are looking for the easy fix, and they, consequently, are going nowhere.
Just an IMHO from a bit of a cynic.
Re:Story time (Score:5, Insightful)
It also depends on previous skills : if you know other programming languages, it's not that hard to learn a new one, because the concepts are familiar.
However, if you never did any sort of programming, you first need to learn that.
However, to be a professional programmer, you need practice, otherwise it's going to take too long for you to write any production code.
It's like muscle memory : You should no longer have to think about syntax : you just think ' i need to iterate this list ' , and your fingers write a for loop . ... but you shouldn't have to think about the separate techniques.
It's similar to martial arts , in that there you will think : evade, defend low, counter attack , floor , etc
Regarding the article : The idea of CodeAcademy is great for teaching programming , but it shouldn't be just to get a high pay job. That feels like cheating your boss.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your problem with CSS appears to be that you aren't familiar enough with it to use it effectively. That's expected, and the same would be true for any sufficiently complicated system. Of course CSS has its faults, and of course there are alternative options that might have worked better, but it doesn't matter, because CSS works and is good enough. That is all that was required of it, and it is why it is used. As it happens, I'm not aware of any other layout system that gives you the power of CSS and HTML yet remains simple.
Maybe it's easier for me, because I started programming web-centric software at about the time CSS arrived, so I've lived through the evolution and it seems perfectly natural to me. That said, I have the same problem moving to any new language -- it takes me at least a few months of messing around on little side projects before I'm comfortable enough to take on a real project, and then at least another 6 months before I feel I am truly proficient. You seem to want to skip all of that and go straight to mastery, and are blaming the system/technology because you can't.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your problem with CSS appears to be that you aren't familiar enough with it to use it effectively. That's expected, and the same would be true for any sufficiently complicated system.
Mod my parent up. The vast majority of the anti-CSS comments here appear to come from hubris-sufferers who couldn't be bothered to research the language or the browsers properly. Truth is, practically all serious problems and divergencies come from one family of browsers (we all know which). If you understand how to put them into their standards modes and how to control their ridiculous hasLayout property, all of the problems described so far go away instantly.