Have Bad Cars Gone Extinct? 672
Hugh Pickens writes "AP reports that global competition is squeezing lemons out of the market and forcing automakers to improve the quality and reliability of their vehicles. With few exceptions, cars are so close on reliability that it's getting harder for companies to charge a premium. 'We don't have total clunkers like we used to,' says Dave Sargent, automotive vice president with J.D. Power. In 1998, J.D. Power and Associates found an industry average of 278 problems per 100 vehicles, but this year, the number fell to 132. In 1998, the most reliable car had 92 problems per 100 vehicles, while the least reliable had 517, a gap of 425. This year the gap closed to 284 problems. It wasn't always like this. In the 1990s, Honda and Toyota dominated in quality, especially in the key American market for small and midsize cars. Around 2006, General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler were heading into financial trouble and shifted research dollars from trucks to cars after years of neglect and spent more on engineering and parts to close the gap. Meanwhile Toyota's reputation was tarnished by a series of safety recalls, and Honda played conservative with new models that looked similar to the old ones. Now it's 'very hard to find products that aren't good anymore,' says Jeremy Anwyl, CEO of the Edmunds.com automotive website. 'In safety, performance and quality, the differences just don't have material impact.'"
Hyperbole (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course lemons exist.
Lots of them. Its just that, now reliable cars number quite a bit.
but there still exist a set of people who think money can be saved by skimping on QC practices.
Its more of a mindset issue.
Other than that, if you have ever been part of a JD power survey, you would know what it actually is.
Here is an interesting link
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/41820-my-experience-jd-power-quality-survey.html [team-bhp.com]
So another question is.. are the right questions being answered?
Reliability ratings aren't reliable anyway... (Score:5, Interesting)
Back then the general feeling was that Asian cars were better quality but based on this I always wondered how much was reality and how much unconscious bias.
J D Power versus Edmunds (Score:3, Interesting)
What I would suggest from my own reading of the J D Power surveys is that the gap at the top is much narrower, with a number of high quality manufacturers including the Germans, the Japanese and a few others fighting over quite small differences. If you buy a Merc, a VW (even if it is called a Skoda), a Porsche, a BMW, a Toyota or a Honda, you're unlikely to complain. Buy a recent Korean car and the same is likely to be true. And then you get into the long tail (I may have missed some good ones, I agree).
A modern clunker is better than an old clunker, true, but the customer dissatisfaction is going to be just as great. It's all relative. In the early 80s many American cars were...well, they got traded in after a year and the next owner was the QA and rectification department. But people accepted it. When a lock fell out of the door of my boss's car - sorry, Chrysler- he just said "Well, it's 11 months old, not worth fixing". Twenty years on, a lock broke on a colleague's ten year old Merc and he complained that German engineering wasn't what it was.
Re:The Biggest Loss (Score:5, Interesting)
That and the fact that every new car seems to be built on the principle that repair costs are no obstacle...
Compared to people repair/replacement costs, yes. Modern cars deform so "badly" in accidents by design in order to absorb as much of the impact energy as possible so that energy isn't absorbed by your bones and squishy bits.
Personally I would rather have to make a car insurance claim than a life insurance one.
Re:Reliability ratings aren't reliable anyway... (Score:5, Interesting)
Aside from bias there's also expectations.
I really didn't care much about my commuter car, as long as it passes smog check and gets me to work cheaply in stop and go traffic, I just don't care. The plastic dash parts rattle together when its below 10 degrees (F) out. Also the clearcoat is failing on the non-functional spoiler after only 14 years of exposure. Somehow I got a bit of scotch tape on the instrument cluster and I can see everything OK it just looks a little dirty. Maybe I should, but I Just Don't Care.
The caddy and vette buyers believe they're getting the cream of the crop, so they scream in agony if there is a speck of dust in the car. Thats a different type of bias. I know for a fact that caddy and vette complaint rates are thru the roof. They are almost certainly "about as good" as my car, those brands just attract whiners, therefore you hear more whining.
I suspect you're seeing something of the sort in this story. If you corrected for the demographics of the buyers the difference would probably disappear.
The third reason why you see the "problem" is I'm sure mitsu spent more money on advertising than eagle, obviously advertising supported media is going to do their best to claim the mitsu is better. The car market is about as bad as the video game "magazine and website" market this way. The review score is a direct simple function of advertising budget, nothing more.
Chevy Volt (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Is this a rule? (Score:5, Interesting)
My 1982 Mercedes W123 has almost 500000km* and not only that, for the last 12 or so years, it has been modified to run on LPG (because it is cheaper) and I stil use LPG when I want to go somewhere more than a few km away (I can only switch the fuel source to "LPG" if the engine has warmed up**).
* probably already reached it, but the odometer has been replaced and the mechanic did not bother setting it to the same number as the old one.
** The process is like this (completely manual system):
1. If the engine is cold, switch on gasoline, start the engine.
2. When it has almost reached ~40C, turn off gasoline, drive (or wait) until the gasoline that is still in the carburetor is used up - I can usually go up to 1km on that.
3. Switch on LPG.
The body had some rust, but i had the car patched up. Also, it seems that I will need to replace all the door seals and the back window seal (I already replaced the front window seal) as 30 year old rubber is not known for its ability to keep water out.
Re:ask a mechanic (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep exactly.
When I started driving in the early 1990s, if you had, say, a 7 year old car, you'd pretty much expect to have trouble starting it on a cold/wet day. You'd allow 20 minutes extra in the morning for fiddling with the choke and spraying the engine with WD-40. That's just how cars were.
Nowadays, if you buy something that old, even a low-status brand, it'll start every time, barring some serious fault.
Re:ask a mechanic (Score:4, Interesting)
animals crawl into weird places
And some of them eat soy-based insulation off of wiring. Yes, I've had that happen before. Really, who thought we needed biodegradable wire insulation? And in automobiles, which don't exactly get buried in landfills.
Re:ask a mechanic (Score:5, Interesting)
going forward it's going to be once every 3.5 years for a new car
Such a waste. Look at the cars Cuba is running. They haven't gotten much of anything since the embargo but their cars keep on ticking.
I have a 14 year old VW Jetta TDI. It is nearing 300,000 mi and still gets 40 driven hard and 50+ if driven gently. Still has 550 psi compression across all 4 cylinders. (Read, that's a good thing). Mechanics wear out it's not always design it's just physics. I've had to replace numerous body parts on the suspension and I'm nearing my 30th oil change but it's still going and I don't see replacing it anytime in the near future.
Let me guess, you buy new clothes every year if they need replacing or not. "Just in case".
Or I suppose a computer analogy: "Nothing ever goes wrong with my computers. I just replace them every month". (And given the design lifespans of Car:Computer::3.5 years:1 month is about right.
Re:News to me (Score:5, Interesting)
If the Cruze and the Sonic are the best Chevy can do, then they are doomed. Neither are class leaders, Consumer Reports hasn't sung their praises either. Car and Driver was shocked that the Sonic didn't completely suck http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-chevrolet-sonic-ltz-turbo-comparison-test-car-and-driver-page-6 [caranddriver.com] but the version they said was almost as good as the competition cost a few grand more. (this is one of the better reviews)
They also say the Cruze doesn't hold a candle to the Hyundai Elantra (honestly, Hyundai really hit a home run with the new one) Way more features for less money. http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11-chevrolet-cruze-and-12-ford-focus-vs-jetta-elantra-and-mazda-3-comparison-test-2011-chevrolet-cruze-lt-page-3 [caranddriver.com]
They are better cars than Chevy has made in a while, but they have a long way to catch up with Asia, particularly at the same price point. Breaks my heart to say that, but the truth hurts sometimes. At least the new Chevrolets are a bit "less ugly" than the last decade, but they still aren't winning any beauty contests either, especially when compared to Ford and Hyundai.
On that note, Ford has really gotten their shit together over the last 5 or 6 years and is producing a good car at a good price. When I bought my last car 6 months ago, I had narrowed it down to Ford and Hyundai. Ironically, part of what sold me on the Hyundai was that the dash layout and interior was more "classic GM" in feel to me, more comfortable. Kept bumping my head getting in and out of the Fords. Didn't hurt that the Hyundai had more power (275hp 2L turbo) and better gas mileage (34 Hwy). I'm averaging 31 in mixed but mainly highway driving. The resale value on Hyundais have also skyrocketed. I put a ton of miles on my Azera over two years, and sold it for almost as much as I had bought it for when it was 1 year old.
Re:ask a mechanic (Score:5, Interesting)
This is where I have a problem with the fine article (or summary at least). Sure, there may be less problems over the life of the car, which todays seems to be not anymore than about 10 years. Where back in the 50's thru the 70s you commonly heard about the 30 year car. There seems to be a different in long term quality of the vehicles.
I had a old 1981 Honda Accord, which other than routine maintenance (oil changes, brakes, tires, clutch, spark plugs, battery, etc.) there were no breakdowns at all that prevented me from getting to a destination. I had this vehicle for 20 years, and when I did get rid of it, I saw it on the road for another 4+ years delivering pizza. I don't think any car today would be able to do that.
And the thing was, I was up north in Saskatchewan, Canada, where -40c was a typical winter (and at times colder). Never once did I ever have problems starting due to the cold - even if the block heater wasn't plugged in. And to boot, that vehicle was great in the snow. It would go where 4x4s would get stuck. I don't know what it was, but that vehicle was great, and I was sad when I had to get rid of it (had a new baby on the way, and wanted something with 4 doors).
So when they say most reliable, I would bet that it's not over a long life of a car... considering the life of a car today is about 10 years. The more complex cars get, the more that can go wrong with them. I'd take that 81 Honda again, in a second, over a lot of the cars today.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)